Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 11:40PM

hinault wrote: »

The Protestant church and the Catholic church were persecuted.

If the regime was Christian, or Catholic, or Protestant, it would have promoted one or other system of belief. But it didn't.

The regime went further by persecuting Chistians and it sought to eradicate Christianity from German life.

Would you be so kind as to show solidarity with Atheists whom were also persecuted by the Nazis?

Nazi Germany

In Germany during the Nazi era, a 1933 decree stated that "No National Socialist may suffer detriment... on the ground that he does not make any religious profession at all".[16] However, the regime strongly opposed "godless communism",[17][18] and most of Germany's atheist and largely left-wing freethought organizations were banned the same year; some right-wing groups were tolerated by the Nazis until the mid-1930s.[19][20] During negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of April 26, 1933 Hitler stated that "Secular schools can never be tolerated" because of their irreligious tendencies.[21] Hitler routinely disregarded this undertaking, and the Reich concordat as a whole and by 1939, all Catholic denominational schools had been disbanded or converted to public facilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#Nazi_Germany

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 11:44PM

hinault wrote: »

Incorrect.

And because you're now wasting my time, I won't be wasting further time replying to you.

Adios.

Very immature! Typical Religious Apologist tactic, rather then provide some evidence to counter an argument the toys get thrown out of the cot.

Gott mit uns (God with us) is a phrase commonly used on armor in the German military from the German Empire to the end of the Third Reich, although its historical origins are far older. The Imperial Russian motto, "Съ нами Богъ!" ("S nami Bog!"), also translates the sam

qt3.14 · 27-03-2015 11:44PM

hinault wrote: »

The Protestant church and the Catholic church were persecuted.

If the regime was Christian, or Catholic, or Protestant, it would have promoted one or other system of belief. But it didn't.

The regime went further by persecuting Chistians and it sought to eradicate Christianity from German life.

No, it sought to eradicate Christianity that wasn't subject to it's control from German life.

marienbad · 27-03-2015 11:49PM

hinault wrote: »

If Nazi Germany was a christian nation, why were the Catholic and Protestant churches persecuted under Nazism?

Why would a regime persecute the system you claim it believed in?

You're starting to waste my time.

Why did the French persecute the Cathars ? The Huguenots ?

silverharp · 27-03-2015 11:50PM

hinault wrote: »

How do you know that prayers didn't ensure the demise of 1,000 year Reich after 12 years? The fact is you don't know.

someone tried to kill hitler in 1939 , couldnt god have nudged whatever needed to have been nudged for it to have been successful or a simple plane crash. dont embarrass yourself and just accept that prayer doesnt work for anything that can be measured

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 11:53PM

marienbad wrote: »

Why did the French persecute the Cathars ? The Huguenots ?

Christians have a persecution complex, even when they are being persecuted by fellow Christians they need to attribute blame to some Godless Scapegoat!

hinault · 28-03-2015 12:10AM

silverharp wrote: »

someone tried to kill hitler in 1939 , couldnt god have nudged whatever needed to have been nudged for it to have been successful or a simple plane crash. dont embarrass yourself and just accept that prayer doesnt work for anything that can be measured

The 1,000 year regime was obliterated after 12 just years (1933-1945).

I don't know if prayer was responsible for the demise of that regime. I know that many Christians opposed that regime and their resistance and their prayers helped bring down that regime.

hinault · 28-03-2015 12:12AM

qt3.14 wrote: »

No, it sought to eradicate Christianity that wasn't subject to it's control from German life.

How many seminaries did the Nazi regime build so?

marienbad · 28-03-2015 12:57AM

hinault wrote: »

How many seminaries did the Nazi regime build so?

Some of the Nazi leaders who were Roman Catholics were Adolf Hitler, Josef Goebbels, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich , Heinrich Müller ,Rudolf Hoess.

How many were excommunicated ?

But they did manage to excommunicate Father Romolo Murri who founded Catholic Democrats ( a forerunner of Christian Democrats) ,Jackie Onassis for remarrying , and John Duryea a priest who fell in love .

Nice to see they have their priorities right.

hinault · 28-03-2015 01:14AM

marienbad wrote: »

How many were excommunicated ?

They excommunicated themselves through their actions and their policies.

How many seminaries were opened in Nazi Germany?

"Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly." - Albert Einstein

marienbad · 28-03-2015 01:36AM

hinault wrote: »

They excommunicated themselves through their actions and their policies.

How many seminaries were opened in Nazi Germany?

So why didn't that work for Jackie O and co. ?

hinault · 28-03-2015 01:40AM

marienbad wrote: »

So why didn't that work for Jackie O and co. ?

How do you know that she didn't excommunicate herself through her own actions as well?

How many seminaries were opened in Nazi Germany?

How many seminaries were opened in Soviet Russia?

marienbad · 28-03-2015 01:49AM

hinault wrote: »

How do you know that she didn't excommunicate herself through her own actions as well?

How many seminaries were opened in Nazi Germany?

How many seminaries were opened in Soviet Russia?

So why was it made public knowledge for Jackie O and the others and not for Hitler et al ?

hinault · 28-03-2015 01:53AM

marienbad wrote: »

So why was it made public knowledge for Jackie O and the others and not for Hitler et al ?

If someone is excommunicated, whether that excommunication is public knowledge or not is immaterial. They remain excommunicated until they
do what is necessary to lift their excommunication.

Why are you ignoring and refusing to answer the questions that you've been asked earlier?

I'll ask the three questions once more.

How do you know that she didn't excommunicate herself through her own actions as well?

How many seminaries were opened in Nazi Germany?

How many seminaries were opened in Soviet Russia?

If you choose to refuse to answer those questions, then I'll have to end our exchanges here.

obplayer · 28-03-2015 01:56AM

hinault wrote: »

How do you know that prayers didn't ensure the demise of 1,000 year Reich after 12 years? The fact is you don't know.

Mulim country?

Evidence that it did? Oh, sorry, I forgot that religious people don't do evidence. They just "know".

Angrybastard · 28-03-2015 02:04AM

I'd recommend a book called, "Zeaolt" by Reza Azlan.
He is a religious scholar and places Jesus in the Palestine of that time with all it's customs and norms. It's an amazing book, written by a person knowledgeable in religious theory and myths.
As a non-believer, I was able to really enjoy the whole thing.
Also, it's a very easy read. Take it on holidays with you. You won't be overburdened.

marienbad · 28-03-2015 02:25AM

hinault wrote: »

If someone is excommunicated, whether that excommunication is public knowledge or not is immaterial. They remain excommunicated until they
do what is necessary to lift their excommunication.

Why are you ignoring and refusing to answer the questions that you've been asked earlier?

I'll ask the three questions once more.

How do you know that she didn't excommunicate herself through her own actions as well?

How many seminaries were opened in Nazi Germany?

How many seminaries were opened in Soviet Russia?

If you choose to refuse to answer those questions, then I'll have to end our exchanges here.

So why was it made public knowledge in the case of the desolate widow, the democratic priest, and the unfortunate lover and not in the case of the brutal dictator, the propaganda liar, the head of the ss , the head of the gestapo, and Hitler's favourite thug ?

But then those other great catholics Mussolini Franco Salazar weren't kicked out either were they ? Staunch fascists every one , whereas the other three committed the cardinal errors of being a woman , a democrat and a man refusing to deny his sexuality.

Will you excommunicate me too if I don't answer your questions ? You must long for the days when you could ''put us to the question'' as it was so euphemistically phrased.

So how many posters are you not talking to at this stage ?

hinault · 28-03-2015 02:35AM

Have it your way, this exchange ends from now.

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 06:39AM

hinault wrote: »

How do you know that she didn't excommunicate herself through her own actions as well?

How many seminaries were opened in Nazi Germany?

How many seminaries were opened in Soviet Russia?

How many mosques did The Holy Roman Empire open?
You're questions don't deserve answers as they prove no point. Just like Jesus magically turned water into wine you are trying to turn anything Nazi into Atheist.

Going by your standards god must be atheist due to his ordering genocide and causing atrocities

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 07:18AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

They were saved from eternal damnation, unlike where they were heading as the adults.

Looking back on your quote it struck me that you appear to be approving of gods Post Natal Abortion of potentially defective human beings! Do you approve of aborting defective humans?

Surely god could have made his point more humanly then having Israelite butcher babies?

Harika · 28-03-2015 08:58AM

hinault wrote: »

How many seminaries did the Nazi regime build so?

No idea, do you have numbers for that? with source please
Anyway germany was a religious country at this point, with a long tradition, so even if your source proves that there was none opened, the infrastructure was already in place for centuries.

silverharp · 28-03-2015 09:25AM

hinault wrote: »

The 1,000 year regime was obliterated after 12 just years (1933-1945).

I don't know if prayer was responsible for the demise of that regime. I know that many Christians opposed that regime and their resistance and their prayers helped bring down that regime.

it tells me a couple of things , God didnt make any particular supernatural intervention. It tells me that christians have no particular moral radar and are as likely to vote in dictators and it also tells me that they dont really "have the spirit" as only a small number of people actually put their lives on the line for their faith.
Do you not see how ridiciulous a belief system you have that allowed German christians to crew planes that bombed civilians for malicious reasons and then get up the next morning an go to mass or church without a care in the world and possibly praying that Germany would win the war

tommy2bad · 28-03-2015 09:51AM

Well I was going to come back to a point raised earlier but the thread has taken a turn for the worst since. I'm not sure it's worth trying g to have a civilised discussion with some of the posters here. On both sides their a refusal to budge from any position and let the discussion developed.
The atheist side seems not so much to lack a belief in God as a it's driven by a hatred of religion, the theist side seem not to be interested if discussing God as engaging in special pleading.
I might come back if the idiots who seem to regard religion as the greatest evil cop on and the theists stop refuting with " but....God"

And for a while their we were playing so nice!

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 10:17AM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Well I was going to come back to a point raised earlier but the thread has taken a turn for the worst since. I'm not sure it's worth trying g to have a civilised discussion with some of the posters here. On both sides their a refusal to budge from any position and let the discussion developed.
The atheist side seems not so much to lack a belief in God as a it's driven by a hatred of religion, the theist side seem not to be interested if discussing God as engaging in special pleading.
I might come back if the idiots who seem to regard religion as the greatest evil cop on and the theists stop refuting with " but....God"

And for a while their we were playing so nice!

That is honestly a shame, I sincerely hope you to not think I have a hatred of Religion/God. I don't hate Santa, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. I hate and despise peoples capacity to use Religion to justify interference in other people lives, to control their minds and bodies also to justify immoral ideas and evil deeds!

galljga1 · 28-03-2015 10:17AM

marienbad wrote: »

So why was it made public knowledge in the case of the desolate widow, the democratic priest, and the unfortunate lover and not in the case of the brutal dictator, the propaganda liar, the head of the ss , the head of the gestapo, and Hitler's favourite thug ?

But then those other great catholics Mussolini Franco Salazar weren't kicked out either were they ? Staunch fascists every one , whereas the other three committed the cardinal errors of being a woman , a democrat and a man refusing to deny his sexuality.

Will you excommunicate me too if I don't answer your questions ? You must long for the days when you could ''put us to the question'' as it was so euphemistically phrased.

So how many posters are you not talking to at this stage ?

Thank your stars that he has added you to his ignore list. Is it possible that he is a blinkered idiot? He will not debate. He ignores questions and goes off on some ridiculous tangent. When he cannot back up some utter nonsense claim, he adds you to his ignore list and goes on his merry shortsighted way. Welcome to the hinault ignore list. It is a peaceful place.

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 10:21AM

galljga1 wrote: »

Welcome to the hinault ignore list. It is a peaceful place.

It also gives a sense of vindication that you won the argument and should also give you a sense of pride

MaxWig · 28-03-2015 11:25AM

I'm saying religion is a particularly potent form of human manipulation, it ticks a great deal of the psychological boxes humans have a predisposition to.

But this is the point. Religion is not a form of human manipulation. Nothing like it. Religion, like anything else is neutral. Our motivations and desires, fears and insecurities, projections and such are the issue. Religion has nothing to do with it.

Are there other forms of human manipulation? Sure. But that hardly lets religion off the hook, in the same way that pyramid schemes are not free of criticism because lotteries exist.

The implication throughout your argument, is that if we manage to eradicate religion, there will be less hatred, less manipulation etc. That is utopian, wishful thinking.

When ever religion is criticised the same tired argument is rolled out, these are not unique to religion, if we didn't have religion people would just find another justification for these things etc etc

My point is that this is a silly point to argue.

It really isn't. It's a fundamental point. Until such time as we overcome our belief that our ills can be hung on one belief or another, one system or another, we are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over.

It is not simply that religion is no better than any other human construct.

Religion is worse than a lot of other human constructs.

Or to put it another way, religion is a particularly bad form of human manipulation.

Again, you are imbuing religion with a power it does not have. Only people can manipulate other people. When someone wields power, it makes no odds what they claim to wield it in the name of. Tale away the claim to one thing, and it will be another.

Rolling out examples of other particularly bad form of human manipulation (such as hero worship in the case of the Nazis or North Korea) is not an argument for letting religion off the hook.

Again, the point can't be stressed enough. Religion is not a form of manipulation. The idea that you can differentiate yourself from those around you, be better than them is what separate us. Cultural heroism, or whatever you wish to call it is the issue. That is, 'I am right, more right. Mine is the right way. Ours is the right way.' This is the crux of the problem . It really makes very little difference what the 'right way' is.

PopePalpatine · 28-03-2015 11:36AM

galljga1 wrote: »

Thank your stars that he has added you to his ignore list. Is it possible that he is a blinkered idiot? He will not debate. He ignores questions and goes off on some ridiculous tangent. When he cannot back up some utter nonsense claim, he adds you to his ignore list and goes on his merry shortsighted way. Welcome to the hinault ignore list. It is a peaceful place.

It's people like hinault who are still butthurt that Franco and Salazar's regimes are no more.

jaffusmax · 28-03-2015 12:30PM

MaxWig wrote: »

But this is the point. Religion is not a form of human manipulation. Nothing like it. Religion, like anything else is neutral. Our motivations and desires, fears and insecurities, projections and such are the issue. Religion has nothing to do with it.
.

Religion demands total obedience, it is totalitarian in nature! It convicts people of thought crimes, it says we are born sick/sinners and commands us be well again. Even after a life of misery under its totalitarian control it wants to make sure that we fear an eternity of damnation and suffering if we stray from Jesus/god flock.

I don't want to start quoiting the bible again, as the evidence is all there in it for everyone to read.

MaxWig · 28-03-2015 01:00PM

Religion demands total obedience, it is totalitarian in nature!

Religion doesn't demand anything. It's leader's do.

It convicts people of thought crimes, it says we are born sick/sinners and commands us be well again.

Religion doesn't convict people of anything. Sorry to be pedantic, but the language is important here. Religion is if anything a framework - a system of belief that aims to guide people through the difficulties associated with being alive. The variations that you are talking about are circumstantial.

Saying that we are born sinners, is akin to saying that we are born with the potential for great evil. I don't go along with the idea of sin, as I'm sure you don't, but if I read that language as a representation of the human condition in a novel or secular text, I wouldn't object on the grounds of inaccuracy.

Even after a life of misery under its totalitarian control it wants to make sure that we fear an eternity of damnation and suffering if we stray from Jesus/god flock.

If religion caused people to live only lives of misery, it would have died out long ago. People seem quite happy to be religious.

I don't want to start quoiting the bible again, as the evidence is all there in it for everyone to read.

Quoting the bible, and taking it literally is - I don't know - I don't have words for it. What is your point? "The books says 'I demand your obedience' - so there. Religion is bad"

That's worse than the lads you see with the sandwich boards going on about the end of days.

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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