Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

Cen taurus · 27-03-2015 08:25PM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Given that I have no idea who you are, no idea where you are, and have absolutely no ability or desire to find out, it wouldn't take long for a complaint from you to the Gardai to get thrown out of court. Yes, I admit, I did go a bit graphic in what I said, perhaps I could have said it a bit differently, but the meaning is clear.

Quoting this to record it.

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 08:26PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

They were saved from eternal damnation, unlike where they were heading as the adults.

I also have to add now that religion can not only make good do but also say evil things!

RikuoAmero · 27-03-2015 08:27PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Quoting this to record it.

You might want to look back up, I edited the post you just quoted.

Delirium · 27-03-2015 08:29PM

Temporarily locking thread pending mod review.

Apologies for the inconvience and thanks for your patience.

Delirium · 27-03-2015 09:22PM

Thread re-opened.

hinault · 27-03-2015 10:31PM

katydid wrote: »

Hardly the same thing. For centuries, the church kept knowledge of the bible to itself by keeping education to itself, so that the ordinary people couldn't question what it was being told. They told simple Bible stories to satisfy the masses, but discouraged - no, prevented - any deeper analysis.

No doubt you're one of the whingers too who complain about the church involvement in education :rolleyes:

Whingers blame the church for not educating people to read or write on this thread.

Whingers blame the church for being involved in educating people.

hinault · 27-03-2015 10:35PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

Much of these things occurred after the reformation when Protestation came into being! Christianity canabilzed itself!

Are you trying to prove in some way that Nazi Germany under Hitler was some sort of Atheist state that sought to destroy Christianity! Hitler and Himmel went to great lengths to obtain the mythical spear of destiny that legend says pierced Jesus side at the hands of a Roman Solider! Obviously they had a real belief in the powers of the Christ!

It is very typical of religious apologists to seek martyrdom for their beliefs whenever possible, this does not validate belief in a supernatural god one iota!

Nazi Germany was an atheistic state.
They are the facts. I gave you the timeline for the beginning of the persecution of Christianity in Nazi Germany. 1937.

Historians such as Richard Overy state much of what I stated here.

Never heard of Himmel.

hinault · 27-03-2015 10:39PM

marienbad wrote: »

This is simply untrue and what's more I suspect you know it and it is this kind of disingenuousness that makes these conversations so disappointing .

The RCC in particular strongly discouraged people reading the bible and insisted that only priests were qualified to pass on the correct interpretation . This was still the case in my own time in school and bible reading was something that only those Protestants did .

Most Catholic homes didn't even have a Bible and weren't encouraged to have one, whereas every Protestant home did. You know all this .

Given that the vast majority of people were incapable of reading or writing, handing them a Bible and asking them to read, and to understand, the Bible would be pointless.

I possess our family Bible dating from the 19th century. And I'm Catholic.

PopePalpatine · 27-03-2015 10:57PM

hinault wrote: »

Nazi Germany was an atheistic state.
They are the facts. I gave you the timeline for the beginning of the persecution of Christianity in Nazi Germany. 1937.

Historians such as Richard Overy state much of what I stated here.

Never heard of Himmel.

It was not an atheist state. To the Nazis, atheism was part of Marxism and thus disgusted them. I already provided a link regarding discrimination against atheists in Nazi Germany, but I guess that seeing as it didn't come from somewhere with a .va domain name, you ignored it.

marienbad · 27-03-2015 11:00PM

hinault wrote: »

Given that the vast majority of people were incapable of reading or writing, handing them a Bible and asking them to read, and to understand, the Bible would be pointless.

I possess our family Bible dating from the 19th century. And I'm Catholic.

How many clergy in your family since the 19th century then ?

You know full well bible studies were not encouraged by the RCC , why else have their own penny dreadful type catechism .

Q1 who made the world ?
A God made the world

Q 6 why did God make you ?
A.God made me to know him, to love him ,to serve him and to be happy with him forever in the next

Remember all that rote learning or was it before your time ?

And you talk about revisionism !

hinault · 27-03-2015 11:07PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It was not an atheist state. To the Nazis, atheism was part of Marxism and thus disgusted them. I already provided a link regarding discrimination against atheists in Nazi Germany, but I guess that seeing as it didn't come from somewhere with a .va domain name, you ignored it.

Actually you're correct. Nazi Germany wasn't an atheist state, if you define occultism as not being atheistic.
Hitler and his regime promoted a belief in Volkisch gods.

silverharp · 27-03-2015 11:09PM

hinault wrote: »

Nazi Germany was an atheistic state.
They are the facts. I gave you the timeline for the beginning of the persecution of Christianity in Nazi Germany. 1937.

Historians such as Richard Overy state much of what I stated here.

Never heard of Himmel.

99% of Germans were Christians in their 1939 census. were they praying for war and had their prayers answered :pac:

hinault · 27-03-2015 11:09PM

marienbad wrote: »

How many clergy in your family since the 19th century then

The Bible in our family predated by two generations relatives who joined the clergy.

hinault · 27-03-2015 11:10PM

silverharp wrote: »

99% of Germans were Christians in their 1939 census. were they praying for war and had their prayers answered :pac:

You'll be able to supply a link showing what you claim is in the 1939 census of Germany.

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 11:11PM

hinault wrote: »

Nazi Germany was an atheistic state.
They are the facts. I gave you the timeline for the beginning of the persecution of Christianity in Nazi Germany. 1937.

Historians such as Richard Overy state much of what I stated here.

Never heard of Himmel.

One Atheist psychopath amongst dozens of Christian psychopaths did not make Nazi Germany an "Atheist State"

There is has never been an Atheist State this implies a state was founded on the basis of atheism. There has been State Atheism where a state adopts a non religious stance, although in the case of North Korea and the Soviet Union the Cult of Personality became the state religion!

No matter how much you wish it Nazi Germany was a Christian nation and not some Uber Atheist Genocidal Killing Machine!

hinault · 27-03-2015 11:13PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

One Atheist psychopath amongst dozens of Christian psychopaths did not make Nazi Germany an "Atheist State"

There is has never been an Atheist State this implies a state was founded on the basis of atheism. There has been State Atheism where a state adopts a non religious stance, although in the case of North Korea and the Soviet Union the Cult of Personality became the state religion!

No matter how much you wish it Nazi Germany was a Christian nation and not some Uber Atheist Genocidal Killing Machine!

If Nazi Germany was a christian nation, why were the Catholic and Protestant churches persecuted under Nazism?

Why would a regime persecute the system you claim it believed in?

You're starting to waste my time.

silverharp · 27-03-2015 11:15PM

hinault wrote: »

You'll be able to supply a link showing what you claim is in the 1939 census of Germany.

here is the thing , christianity promises all this living in the spirit, if it cant collectively move a people to resist war or most likely in this case most Germans praying they would win....whats the point?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

A census in May 1939, six years into the Nazi era[2] and incorporating the annexation of mostly Catholic Austria into Germany, indicates 54% considered themselves Protestant, (including non-denominational Christians) and 40% Catholic. 3.5% self-identified as "gottgläubig" (lit. "believers in god", often described as predominately creationist and deistic[3]), and 1.5% non-religious. Most members of the Nazi Party were Christians. Composed mostly by members of the Lutheran Evangelical tradition, members of the apostate Nazi-inspired Positive Christianity sect and some of the Catholic faith tradition respectively

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 11:19PM

hinault wrote: »

If Nazi Germany was a christian nation, why were the Catholic and Protestant churches persecuted under Nazism?

Why would a regime persecute the system you claim it believed in?

You're starting to waste my time.

Nazi Germany was a Totalitarian regime that demanded utter obedience from its subjects, this was an ideology. Anything whether it was atheist belief or theist belief was going to stop them obtaining absolute control over the bodies and mind of people under their control.

How on earth you have twisted it to make Nazi Germany some sort of Atheist Regime that persecuted Christians is beyond me! Christains are being persecuted by ISIS right now in the Middle East, Today, are you going to waste everyone's time claiming that ISIS are Atheists as well?

hinault · 27-03-2015 11:21PM

silverharp wrote: »

here is the thing , christianity promises all this living in the spirit, if it cant collectively move a people to resist war or most likely in this case most Germans praying they would win....whats the point?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

Dear old wikipedia. :rolleyes:

Why did Nazi Germany persecute the Protestant and Catholic church, if they supported Christianity?

hinault · 27-03-2015 11:25PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

Nazi Germany was a Totalitarian regime that demanded utter obedience from its subjects, this was an ideology. Anything whether it was atheist belief or theist belief was going to stop them obtaining absolute control over the bodies and mind of people under their control.

How on earth you have twisted it to make Nazi Germany some sort of Atheist Regime that persecuted Christians is beyond me!

You're contradicting yourself (again).

"obtaining absolute control over bodies and minds" cannot include tolerance of a belief in religion.

You're now wasting my time.

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 11:27PM

hinault wrote: »

Dear old wikipedia. :rolleyes:

Why did Nazi Germany persecute the Protestant and Catholic church, if they supported Christianity?

You have been given so many answers except the one you want!

A Wehrmacht Belt Buckle carries the inscription Gott Mit Uns (God with us)

obplayer · 27-03-2015 11:30PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

They were saved from eternal damnation, unlike where they were heading as the adults.

So why doesn't he just kill us all? Unfair, god gave me a chance to sin when he could just have killed me.

qt3.14 · 27-03-2015 11:30PM

hinault wrote: »

Nazi Germany was an atheistic state.
They are the facts. I gave you the timeline for the beginning of the persecution of Christianity in Nazi Germany. 1937.

Historians such as Richard Overy state much of what I stated here.

Never heard of Himmel.

The Nazis persecuted Christian churches for much the same reason that the RCC was persecuted in some Protestant countries and the various Protestant churches were persecuted where the RCC held sway. Namely, that the persecuted faction was a threat to the power base the rulers wished to form.
That's really all there was to it. His flirtation with occultism and paganism was along with the subversion of the several churches, quite simply an attempt to place National Socialism at the heart and soul of the nation. It was the very definition of a totalitarian regime. If there was a place within that for the co-opting of atheism you can be damn sure he'd have done that too.

Anyway, a bit of Hobbes, since it gives an idea of the mindset.

For who is there that does not see to whose benefit it conduces to have it believed that a king hath not his authority from Christ unless a bishop crown him? That a king, if he be a priest, cannot marry? That whether a prince be born in lawful marriage, or not, must be judge by authority from Rome? That subjects may be freed from their allegiance if by the court of Rome the king be judged a heretic? That a king, as Childeric of France, may be deposed by a Pope, as Pope Zachary, for no cause, and his kingdom given to one of his subjects?

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 11:31PM

hinault wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself (again).

"obtaining absolute control over bodies and minds" cannot include tolerance of a belief in religion.

You're now wasting my time.

Did you read everything I said or just pick that bit out of context? Let me rephrase so you can understand better.

Nazi Germany demanded absolute control over bodies and minds of Atheists and Theists alike.

I cannot put it any simpler for you!

hinault · 27-03-2015 11:32PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

You have been given so many answers except the one you want!

A Wehrmacht Belt Buckle carries the inscription Gott Mit Uns (God with us)

And what Gott was that?
The god of the German Faith Movement perhaps?

silverharp · 27-03-2015 11:34PM

hinault wrote: »

Dear old wikipedia. :rolleyes:

Why did Nazi Germany persecute the Protestant and Catholic church, if they supported Christianity?

wot , you mean why didnt christians pray for there not to be a war and if they did, why wasnt their prayers answered?

and dont get snooty about a wikilink , its hardly controversial, was Germany a Mulim country? :rolleyes:

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 11:35PM

hinault wrote: »

And what Gott was that?
The god of the German Faith Movement perhaps?

The Judaic/Christain God, the God of the New and Old Testament

hinault · 27-03-2015 11:36PM

qt3.14 wrote: »

The Nazis persecuted Christian churches for much the same reason that the RCC was persecuted in some Protestant countries and the various Protestant churches were persecuted where the RCC held sway. Namely, that the persecuted faction was a threat to the power base the rulers wished to form.
That's really all there was to it. His flirtation with occultism and paganism was along with the subversion of the several churches, quite simply an attempt to place National Socialism at the heart and soul of the nation. It was the very definition of a totalitarian regime. If there was a place within that for the co-opting of atheism you can be damn sure he'd have done that too.

The Protestant church and the Catholic church were persecuted.

If the regime was Christian, or Catholic, or Protestant, it would have promoted one or other system of belief. But it didn't.

The regime went further by persecuting Chistians and it sought to eradicate Christianity from German life.

hinault · 27-03-2015 11:38PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

The Judaic/Christain God, the God of the New and Old Testament

Incorrect.

And because you're now wasting my time, I won't be wasting further time replying to you.

Adios.

hinault · 27-03-2015 11:40PM

silverharp wrote: »

wot , you mean why didnt christians pray for there not to be a war and if they did, why wasnt their prayers answered?

and dont get snooty about a wikilink , its hardly controversial, was Germany a Mulim country? :rolleyes:

How do you know that prayers didn't ensure the demise of 1,000 year Reich after 12 years? The fact is you don't know.

Mulim country?

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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