Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

wirelessdude01 · 19-03-2015 04:51PM

Inquitus wrote: »

If the roads are "closed", who is liable for any accident be it car or bike that may occur on the "closed" roads. And yes a road closure order gives the marshall's the power to control the traffic, and they could allow traffic onto the circuit as they wish.

I'm assuming liability would be with the organiser. Think they are liable up to 6.5million euro. Also local traffic entering the circuit would be an issue such as cars from houses and also tractors from fields.

Junior · 19-03-2015 04:52PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I would imagine the fee for the temporary road closure is one of the main issues here. 1000e is a sizeable amount of money for a local(ish) race.

As regards the released statements one side of the issue has to have taken a hardline stance or else it wouldn't have come to this point. Someone somewhere has released a statement made up of porkies.

It looks like it's 2K - 1k Admin Fee and 1K for actually closing the roads.

CramCycle · 19-03-2015 05:04PM

Inquitus wrote: »

If the roads are "closed", who is liable for any accident be it car or bike that may occur on the "closed" roads. And yes a road closure order gives the marshall's the power to control the traffic, and they could allow traffic onto the circuit as they wish.

I presume this is what the 6.5m insurance is for, but I will hold my hands up and say I have no idea. Suppose it depends on who caused the accident.

Junior wrote: »

Looks like a 2k fee and whatever the insurance costs would be to ensure the 6.5 Million cover as per the link above.

In their statement they said this fee would be waived, not sure if they would do this for club races as well but in regards the race mentioned that fee no longer existed according to the CoCo, there maybe a separate Garda fee, not sure about that.

07Lapierre · 19-03-2015 05:10PM

The Garda do charge and while the fee for their services is one issue, a more important issue is Garda availability..they are under resourced as it is.

Harrybelafonte · 19-03-2015 05:21PM

Are Fingal really at a loss as to why the club refused to take the road closure option? Was it not explained to them. Both statements read like angry little jibes at each other.

I'm a pessimist, yes, but this does not bode well. The sooner this bloody velodrome is finished the better.

ThisRegard · 19-03-2015 05:24PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I would imagine the fee for the temporary road closure is one of the main issues here. 1000e is a sizeable amount of money for a local(ish) race.

Didn't Fingal say they waived the fee?

Beasty · 19-03-2015 06:58PM

ThisRegard wrote: »

Didn't Fingal say they waived the fee?

Yes. There is no "statutory" road closure fee for road races. They indicate there is an administrative fee that they will waive for cycle races. I am also aware that for my club they would help out with the required advertising costs in connection with road closures for club league events. The problem with the club league is it runs for 20+ weeks and finding appropriate circuits (not involving motorway junctions for example, and where their are adequate diversions) is very difficult. Ideally you need 4 or 5 circuits to avoid putting the locals out too often.

Beasty · 19-03-2015 07:19PM

Just to add, at club league level, based on numbers last year we would probably end up with half the numbers racing doing the admin, marshalling, sorting out road diversions etc. The approach we took was to run a few races outside of Fingal, hire Corkagh Park around once a month, and we did get permission to run TTs entirely within the RoTR in the county

bcmf · 19-03-2015 07:24PM

The problem that could stem from this is that ,as mentioned in an earlier post, other CC's could see this and follow suit.
Many circuits could be found in Meath,Louth and Kildare but as Beasty mentioned these circuits could get overused and we end up with nowhere to go except the North!
Deeply worrying for the future of road racing.

bcmf · 19-03-2015 07:26PM

Beasty wrote: »

hire Corkagh Park around and Mondello once a monthy

Maybe this is the future!

Beasty · 19-03-2015 07:30PM

bcmf wrote: »

The problem that could stem from this is that ,as mentioned in an earlier post, other CC's could see this and follow suit.

In this particular case the Council have stated (as has been sugegsted here many times in the past) that S74 of the 1993 Roads Act is not operative (as no road races have been "prescribed"). They have therefore passed this back to the Gardai who will not "support" races unless they are on closed roads. Hence the underlying issue here is very firmly in my view (and that has been borne out in all discussions I have been involved in or seen reports of) the local Gardai and not the Council.

bcmf · 19-03-2015 07:37PM

Beasty wrote: »

In this particular case the Council have stated (as has been sugegsted here many times in the past) that S74 of the 1993 Roads Act is not operative (as no road races have been "prescribed"). They have therefore passed this back to the Gardai who will not "support" races unless they are on closed roads. Hence the underlying issue here is very firmly in my view (and that has been borne out in all discussions I have been involved in or seen reports of) the local Gardai and not the Council.

I will be more cycnical and say that FCC saw the oppurtunity to pass the decision onto the Gardai.( Its not phrased well but I cant say what I want to say on a public forum).
I want to re read the statement from BCC as I was reading it in the move today, but got the impression that BCC were at a bit of a loss and angered at AGS change of stance!

Beasty · 19-03-2015 07:42PM

Throughout the problems my club have had on this issue it's been very clear who has been pulling the strings, and it's not the local Council.

Hi Ho · 19-03-2015 07:46PM

Plastik wrote: »

It's great that threads about road races are once again descending into this sort of discussion as soon as the season starts. It's becoming as tiresome as helmet, high-vis and RLJ threads.

And wheels ... and rubbish Cat4 riding ...

wav1 · 19-03-2015 07:52PM

bcmf wrote: »

The problem that could stem from this is that ,as mentioned in an earlier post, other CC's could see this and follow suit.
Many circuits could be found in Meath,Louth and Kildare but as Beasty mentioned these circuits could get overused and we end up with nowhere to go except the North!
Deeply worrying for the future of road racing.

its not that they ''could'' be overused bcmf.The fact is some of them are currently being overused.

bcmf · 19-03-2015 08:00PM

wav1 wrote: »

its not that they ''could'' be overused bcmf.The fact is some of them are currently being overused.

Yes. Worringly so!

The only solution that I can see is that Beasty will have to give up some of 'estate' to build a North County version of Corkagh Park.
A Beasty Drome if you will!

Harrybelafonte · 19-03-2015 08:04PM

Hi Ho wrote: »

And wheels ... and rubbish Cat4 riding ...

Yeah, cos A3 are exemplary in their keeping the rules of the road. As that previously posted video proved.

Inquitus · 19-03-2015 09:38PM

So the long and the sort of it is Fingal have interpreted the RTA to mean its up to the Gardai to decide the conditions for racing, due to particular issues with a senior Garda in Fingal, a closed road order is required. Gardai in other parts of the country are more supportive and don't require a closed road order, nor do the local CC's. So this is currently a uniquely Fingal problem?

wav1 · 19-03-2015 10:18PM

After digesting and reading through the statement issued by Fingal Co Co today,i see it as good news of sorts from a promoters view.
They now admit that section 74 is in fact ''inoperative''
A more knowledgable person than myself has been saying this for years and he now indeed proved correct..Basically that act was never signed in to law by the minister of the day.
Outcome as I see it is,that we are really no longer at the mercy of local authorities [well not as much as was perceived anyway]
Whats required now is that those promoters with good relationships and support from their local area Supt,continue to build on those relationships,and those that don't have to start building them straight away.At least there is clarity of sorts in the statement,and I think it can be worked on from here.
C I has to help promoters now in this regard,and take its head out of the sand before the situation is allowed spread.
Good news stories about planning for velodromes etc are all well and good but if they don't help sort out this problem going forward our sport as we know it could fall on its knees.
Anyway even allowing for the race cancellations I still read it as positive.

ROK ON · 19-03-2015 10:23PM

Wav - that is all fine and well but if a Garda is interpreting a statute incorrectly then CI should file a report with the Phoenix Park and if that is not rectified then legal action against the Garda should be considered.
The police force does not exist to incorrectly interpret law. I accept that many clubs, promoters and the CI may not want to go down this route for fear of widespread backlash. But if the relationship is already dysfunctional then maybe the risk is lower.

Cond0r · 19-03-2015 10:26PM

ROK ON wrote: »

Wav - that is all fine and well but if a Garda is interpreting a statute incorrectly then CI should file a report with the Phoenix Park and if that is not rectified then legal action against the Garda should be considered.
The police force does not exist to incorrectly interpret law. I accept that many clubs, promoters and the CI may not want to go down this route for fear of widespread backlash. But if the relationship is already dysfunctional then maybe the risk is lower.

That's a dangerous road (pardon the pun). Road races can't be run in accordance with the rules of the road (two abreast, yield/stop signs..), and if the Gardaí are generally made into an enemy it's very easy for them to come along and call a halt to any race on these grounds.

bcmf · 19-03-2015 10:28PM

CI should really step in here in some shape or form and take a pro-active approach.
Sitting in their offices while they take licence fee's and sit and watch as a whole weekend of races are cancelled and the whole of Fingal becomes a race free zone.

Beasty · 19-03-2015 10:37PM

ROK ON wrote: »

Wav - that is all fine and well but if a Garda is interpreting a statute incorrectly then CI should file a report with the Phoenix Park and if that is not rectified then legal action against the Garda should be considered.
The police force does not exist to incorrectly interpret law. I accept that many clubs, promoters and the CI may not want to go down this route for fear of widespread backlash. But if the relationship is already dysfunctional then maybe the risk is lower.

They are not to my knowledge interpreting the law incorrectly. The issue is we need them onside both to satisfy CI requirements and also to avoid the risk of riders or organisers getting themselves arrested as soon as a rider fails to observe a stop or yield sign or commits any other offence under the Road Acts

Bear in mind discussions have been taking place up to ministerial level involving both the cycling and triathlon communities. We have all raised the s74 point (which, btw, could be addressed by a minister signing an order - the enabling legislation is definitely valid - I suspect that's not going to happen in the current climate though) but I have always personally been much more concerned about the wider powers of the Gardai to stop racing and possibly escalate the issue in a way that spreads to other counties

wav1 · 19-03-2015 10:40PM

ROK ON wrote: »

Wav - that is all fine and well but if a Garda is interpreting a statute incorrectly then CI should file a report with the Phoenix Park and if that is not rectified then legal action against the Garda should be considered.
The police force does not exist to incorrectly interpret law. I accept that many clubs, promoters and the CI may not want to go down this route for fear of widespread backlash. But if the relationship is already dysfunctional then maybe the risk is lower.

I def wouldn't favour taking on the law TBH..A gentle approach would be my favoured route.I think its well known that one particular member of the force is taking this stance.I just wonder has anybody made contact with any other Supt within Fingal in this regard.My information is that there are Supts within the Fingal area who would be more receptive?

Beasty · 19-03-2015 10:47PM

wav1 wrote: »

I def wouldn't favour taking on the law TBH..A gentle approach would be my favoured route.I think its well known that one particular member of the force is taking this stance.I just wonder has anybody made contact with any other Supt within Fingal in this regard.My information is that there are Supts within the Fingal area who would be more receptive?

Going behind his back is not going to do us any favours in my view. Balbriggan's races were in conjunction with the Garda Cycling Club but that didn't help. If one Supt. has taken a decision you can only realistically get it overturned at a higher level.

One of the issues here is the individual in question does not appear keen to engage directly meaning we hear most of the Garda position second hand. There was that meeting a week or 2 ago which involved CI and the Gardai, but no-one has contacted our club about this yet. I guess we will need to approach CI to find out what was agreed given our club was named in dispatches.

ROK ON · 19-03-2015 10:54PM

Cond0r wrote: »

That's a dangerous road (pardon the pun). Road races can't be run in accordance with the rules of the road (two abreast, yield/stop signs..), and if the Gardaí are generally made into an enemy it's very easy for them to come along and call a halt to any race on these grounds.

I accept that and all the others - but to open another worm can I think that you have pinpointed the issue.
Road races on open roads by their very nature cannot be run in accordance with RTA. Because of this the operate in a grey area. As such they exist until such a point that the powers that be (local government or the Garda) decide that they do not want to put up with them.

Now CI (and TI) can choose to accept this - this maybe the most optimal outcome if the risk of 'legislating' for road racing means closed road races only.

Or CI and TI could try to do something about this to put events on an unequivocal legal footing. I suspect that this would ultimately mean closed road racing only. If that instate case then the cycling community may have to put up with this.

Interestingly my club held a Marshall training evening last week that was delivered by a senior CI commisaire. It was an excellent evening and one that all clubs should look to role out. An interesting point was made by the comm where he outlined how those anti racing members of the community are attending races with cameras to build evidence of wrongdoing.
It is in this basis that at the very least comms and CI need to enforce parts of the RTA that can be enforced - ie take no overtaking action that brings you over the white line that a person would not make safely and legally if driving a car.

Cond0r · 19-03-2015 10:57PM

ROK ON wrote: »

I accept that and all the others - but to open another worm can I think that you have pinpointed the issue.
Road races on open roads by their very nature cannot be run in accordance with RTA. Because of this the operate in a grey area. As such they exist until such a point that the powers that be (local government or the Garda) decide that they do not want to put up with them.

Now CI (and TI) can choose to accept this - this maybe the most optimal outcome if the risk of 'legislating' for road racing means closed road races only.

Or CI and TI could try to do something about this to put events on an unequivocal legal footing. I suspect that this would ultimately mean closed road racing only. If that instate case then the cycling community may have to put up with this.

Interestingly my club held a Marshall training evening last week that was delivered by a senior CI commisaire. It was an excellent evening and one that all clubs should look to role out. An interesting point was made by the comm where he outlined how those anti racing members of the community are attending races with cameras to build evidence of wrongdoing.
It is in this basis that at the very least comms and CI need to enforce parts of the RTA that can be enforced - ie take no overtaking action that brings you over the white line that a person would not make safely and legally if driving a car.

Yup, totally agree. I was in meetings with CI and Fingal, and told the CI representative that their comms were not enforcing the rules strictly enough, and this is giving the Gardaí (and unfriendly locals) ammunition against road racing.

The IVCA are much better at this, and sanction riders that break the rules.

Lusk_Doyle · 19-03-2015 10:58PM

Beasty wrote: »

One of the issues here is the individual in question does not appear keen to engage

The day that one individual can simply avoid engaging with other people or groups, etc, and that this results in a county wide embargo on races is a sorry state of affairs. If it is true then that individual should be called out publicly. What's he gonna do?

Beasty · 19-03-2015 11:00PM

Maybe the day will come when we have to adopt something similar to the Ulster model, where at least the PSNI are fully bought into road racing but they have imposed some restrictions to get there

Cond0r · 19-03-2015 11:01PM

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

The day that one individual can simply avoid engaging with other people or groups, etc, and that this results in a county wide embargo on races is a sorry state of affairs. If it is true then that individual should be called out publicly. What's he gonna do?

I think it's widely known that the problem here is the Superintendent in Balbriggan. That was stated in the statement from Balbriggan CC.

Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

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