Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

Beasty

daragh_ wrote: »

True, but in A3 lads ride through. In A4 there's a lot of riding halfway up the bunch, running out of steam and just sitting there.

Just had a quick look around the 5-6 minute mark - they clearly thought they could take up the full width of the road with no consideration the road was not closed (and there was plenty of oncoming traffic that fortunately pulled up)

MOD EDIT: Based on the discussion kicking off on the subject, I am making a general thread on the subject for people to rant, vent or ignore as they see fit.

On a personal note, all I will add is this, report it to the comms if you see it and you found it dangerous, report it. CramCycle

Inquitus

Beasty wrote: »

Just had a quick look around the 5-6 minute mark - they clearly thought they could take up the full width of the road with no consideration the road was not closed (and there was plenty of oncoming traffic that fortunately pulled up)

Aye the wind on the outbound leg was a brisk cross headwind coming from the left, this encouraged the bunch to spread from left to right with the most shielded positions being way out on the wrong side of the road. The Moto marshall to be fair rode up and pushed people in on several occasions but was largely ignored.

Inquitus

Also how much would it cost CI to buy a few Go Pros and have the Comms take numbers from the evidence after the race and issue some DQ's or bans? This would sort wrong side riding out double time.

Koobcam

What about wrong side riding when there's no white line? On narrow roads, a bit tricky to show.

Inquitus

Koobcam wrote: »

What about wrong side riding when there's no white line? On narrow roads, a bit tricky to show.

No ROTR are being contravened in that case so everyone gets a pass.

killalanerr

Beasty wrote: »

Just had a quick look around the 5-6 minute mark - they clearly thought they could take up the full width of the road with no consideration the road was not closed (and there was plenty of oncoming traffic that fortunately pulled up)

Good god man do want us all to line out 2 abreast ,there no drama in the a3 cars were called in advance the race was lead by a lead car with flashing beacon to give ample warning to on coming traffic of a wide load approaching and motorman was on hand to encourage riders to ride on the correct side after they had made a pass
Riders are not going to ride in the wind and thats whats going there

Lusk_Doyle

killalanerr wrote: »

Good god man do want us all to line out 2 abreast ,there no drama in the a3 cars were called in advance the race was lead by a lead car with flashing beacon to give ample warning to on coming traffic of a wide load approaching and motorman was on hand to encourage riders to ride on the correct side after they had made a pass
Riders are not going to ride in the wind and thats whats going there

Are you making excuses for that behaviour?

Raam

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Are you making excuses for that behaviour?

I don't think he is, but the day no one can cross the white line is the day road racing dies.

Lusk_Doyle

Raam wrote: »

I don't think he is, but the day no one can cross the white line is the day road racing dies.

Did you watch the video? Not closed roads.

killalanerr

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Are you making excuses for that behaviour?

^^^^
What raam said

Lusk_Doyle

killalanerr wrote: »

^^^^
What raam said

So it's ok, in your opinion, for riders to take over the whole road, with scant, if any, consideration for other road users or the ROTR? Advance cars or motorbikes notwithstanding.

Raam

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Did you watch the video? Not closed roads.

I've no intention of defending other people's actions. Just be careful what you ask for, because you might get it.

killalanerr

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

So it's ok, in your opinion, for riders to take over the whole road, with scant, if any, consideration for other road users or the ROTR? Advance cars or motorbikes notwithstanding.

Don't put words in my mouth,
So 2 abreast it is then , happy now

Lusk_Doyle

Raam wrote: »

I've no intention of defending other people's actions. Just be careful what you ask for, because you might get it.

What have I asked for?

Raam

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

What have I asked for?

Your questions are leading to the inevitable conclusion.

Lusk_Doyle

killalanerr wrote: »

Don't put words in my mouth,
So 2 abreast it is then , happy now

I have not put words in your mouth. You said that lads across the line is in essence, what racing involves, no?

Plastik

It's great that threads about road races are once again descending into this sort of discussion as soon as the season starts. It's becoming as tiresome as helmet, high-vis and RLJ threads.

Raam

Plastik wrote: »

It's great that threads about road races are once again descending into this sort of discussion again as soon as the season starts. It's becoming as tiresome as helmet, high-vis and RLJ threads.

That's why I'm getting my contribution out of the way early

Lusk_Doyle

Raam wrote: »

Your questions are leading to the inevitable conclusion.

Which is?

For the record, I have no issue with a line coming up to pass others, like what happens in general traffic, but to take over the entire road and force other road users off is a bit much.

Lusk_Doyle

Plastik wrote: »

It's great that threads about road races are once again descending into this sort of discussion as soon as the season starts. It's becoming as tiresome as helmet, high-vis and RLJ threads.

It's a fact of road racing here. We are allowed to discuss it. Get over it.

Raam

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Which is?

For the record, I have no issue with a line coming up to pass others, like what happens in general traffic, but to take over the entire road and force other road users off is a bit much.

Good so. Up to comms to sort out people taking over the full width.

Lusk_Doyle

Raam wrote: »

Good so. Up to comms to sort out people taking over the full width.

Which they never do. The past 3 or 4 years of discussions on here are evidence of that.

Raam

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Which they never do. The past 3 or 4 years of discussions on here are evidence of that.

Shows the futility of discussion here really. They are the referees so only they can enforce it. Or Johnny Law if he wants.

Plastik

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

It's a fact of road racing here. We are allowed to discuss it. Get over it.

It's a fact of road racing on open roads. If you've an issue with it either take it upon yourself to take note of the riders and report them to the comms, or else let the comms do their job.

Beasty

I am pretty sure the discussion we had here about Kilmessan a couple of years ago was noticed by a lot of people in senior positions within road racing in Ireland. I'm equally sure that resulted in attempts to get riders to stop spreading across the road for long sections in races. Some of the photos posted were quite telling. That's one of the problems though - that video is equally telling and sends out a very poor message, both within the cycling community, but perhaps more importantly could be used by people wishing to clamp down on road racing to support their case

Raam

Beasty wrote: »

I am pretty sure the discussion we had here about Kilmessan a couple of years ago was noticed by a lot of people in senior positions within road racing in Ireland. I'm equally sure that resulted in attempts to get riders to stop spreading across the road for long sections in races. Some of the photos posted were quite telling. That's one of the problems though - that video is equally telling and sends out a very poor message, both within the cycling community, but perhaps more importantly could be used by people wishing to clamp down on road racing to support their case

I'll wager that there is little desire to prevent groups taking too much road width. Something will only be done when their hand is forced.

Lusk_Doyle

Raam wrote: »

I'll wager that there is little desire to prevent groups taking too much road width. Something will only be done when their hand is forced.

A race comm with balls. Riders noticed doing the aforementioned. Number noted. Pulled from race. Sanctioned by means of either a fine or more probably, a few races ban. It's that simple, in my opinion.

07Lapierre

Raam wrote: »

I'll wager that there is little desire to prevent groups taking too much road width. Something will only be done when their hand is forced.

Agree..the problem is what will force their hand?

https://www.facebook.com/CyclingWeekly/posts/10152707932097634

Lusk_Doyle

07Lapierre wrote: »

Agree..the problem is what will force their hand?

https://www.facebook.com/CyclingWeekly/posts/10152707932097634

Not even this, if past evidence from here is the result of how a death was responded to. The organisers simply must do more and should do more.

JK.BMC

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Which they never do. The past 3 or 4 years of discussions on here are evidence of that.

Two dozen riders were sanctioned in a race in Mayo last year; the entire peleton was over the line in a driving crosswind from the left, but only a certain number were penalised, which seemed harsh at the time.

In that scenario, which was very similar to certain stretches of yesterdays race, I take it that you would be the one guy heroically hugging the left side., as the pace line disappears up the road... Yes, you rode on the left. Fair play. But probably on your own, maybe 20mins behind at the end on a windy day.

If I was honest, yesterdays race was just about the safest early season gallop I've ridden in recent seasons- enjoyed it.

Lusk_Doyle

JK.BMC wrote: »

Two dozen riders were sanctioned in a race in Mayo last year; the entire peleton was over the line in a driving crosswind from the left, but only a certain number were penalised, which seemed harsh at the time.

In that scenario, which was very similar to certain stretches of yesterdays race, I take it that you would be the one guy heroically hugging the left side., as the pace line disappears up the road... Yes, you rode on the left. Fair play. But probably on your own, maybe 20mins behind at the end on a windy day.

If I was honest, yesterdays race was just about the safest early season gallop I've ridden in recent seasons- enjoyed it.

There's nothing heroic about it. Leave your sarcasm at the door. Your logic is flawed.

niceonetom

Ban cameras.

CramCycle

Sticking post for a moment.

CramCycle

Moved from NF thread

Harrybelafonte

niceonetom wrote: »

Ban cameras.

+1

leCycliste

Cameras on bikes aren't actually allowed in road races and are againts UCI rules. That stems from a TV rights ruling but never the less the comms should and has the powers to take action if they see one on a bike during a road race.

Tenzor07

leCycliste wrote: »

Cameras on bikes aren't actually allowed in road races and are againts UCI rules. That stems from a TV rights ruling but never the less the comms should and has the powers to take action if they see one on a bike during a road race.

Is that the exact rule? Or is it merely that a camera cannot be mounted on the riders helmet/body?
But is ok to mount on the bike itself?

leCycliste

thats the rule, the footage you have linked there is from Shinmano TV I think, that footage was/is allowed as premission was given from UCI for these videos. These would be the TV rights that I mentioned.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Is that the exact rule? Or is it merely that a camera cannot be mounted on the riders helmet/body?
But is ok to mount on the bike itself?

Chips Lovell

As far as I know you need the permission of the race organiser and the UCI.

dermabrasion

Meanwhile....back to the OP.
In parts the A3 NF video, you see riders lined out across the road with cars on the grass verge and so on. You also see wrong-side-riding approaching blind hills and turns. This happens all the time from A1 to A4.
My point is this: racing is a privilege, not a right. We cannot be a menace or endanger other road user, our co-competitors or even ourselves. Some might say its a right, but look at NCD and see how far that argument is going.
Of course wrong-side-riding is going to happen, but it needs to be in places where it is safe to do so, and for a specific reason. My own opinion is that the bunch should call out stupidity where it occurs, and the Comms penalise it when they come across it.

Harrybelafonte

dermabrasion wrote: »

Meanwhile....back to the OP.
In parts the A3 NF video, you see riders lined out across the road with cars on the grass verge and so on. You also see wrong-side-riding approaching blind hills and turns. This happens all the time from A1 to A4.
My point is this: racing is a privilege, not a right. We cannot be a menace or endanger other road user, our co-competitors or even ourselves. Some might say its a right, but look at NCD and see how far that argument is going.
Of course wrong-side-riding is going to happen, but it needs to be in places where it is safe to do so, and for a specific reason. My own opinion is that the bunch should call out stupidity where it occurs, and the Comms penalise it when they come across it.

This is the whole point... They're supposed to call it out, they don't and until they do, nothing will change. I've memorised one number from A4 who was at it this weekend. I can only remember that number, not the 20-30 others who were up to it the whole race. That's the comms job, not mine. Whether I feel put out by the behavior or not doesn't really matter, I'm not the enforcer.

Lusk_Doyle

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

This is the whole point... They're supposed to call it out, they don't and until they do, nothing will change. I've memorised one number from A4 who was at it this weekend. I can only remember that number, not the 20-30 others who were up to it the whole race. That's the comms job, not mine. Whether I feel put out by the behavior or not doesn't really matter, I'm not the enforcer.

But you could be:

"You've crossed the white one time too many, punk."

Lusk_Doyle

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

This is the whole point... They're supposed to call it out, they don't and until they do, nothing will change. I've memorised one number from A4 who was at it this weekend. I can only remember that number, not the 20-30 others who were up to it the whole race. That's the comms job, not mine. Whether I feel put out by the behavior or not doesn't really matter, I'm not the enforcer.

It should matter. You are being put at risk by the reckless behaviour and lack of respect of others, by others. That is simply unacceptable.

07Lapierre

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

It should matter. You are being put at risk by the reckless behaviour and lack of respect of others, by others. That is simply unacceptable.

I think a lot of riders don't realise that riders that cycle on the wrong side of the road are not only putting themselves at risk. If an oncoming car approaches these riders, they are going to move back over to the left....guess which rider will end up in the ditch?

Lusk_Doyle

07Lapierre wrote: »

I think a lot of riders don't realise that riders that cycle on the wrong side of the road are not only putting themselves at risk. If an oncoming car approaches these riders, they are going to move back over to the left....guess which rider will end up in the ditch?

I think that they are very aware of that fact. The problem as I see it, is that the part of the brain that is responsible for this thought process seems to be over powered by the part that demands a high race position and hence the recklessness ensues.

dashcamdanny

Flutes like this make it easy for the bike hating motorists to to hate the whole community of cyclists.

Harrybelafonte

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

It should matter. You are being put at risk by the reckless behaviour and lack of respect of others, by others. That is simply unacceptable.

I know this, as I know it every day when my life is put at risk by reckless behaviour, whether its by vehicles when I'm in a vehicle, or vehicles and cyclists when I'm on the bike. I've made complaints, I'm not averse to the concept, but, in this context, I've spent two years on this forum ranting about how I hate this element of racing... I've narrowly avoided at least three crashes that were as a result of people suddenly pulling in, i've seen the across the white line brigade break off car mirrors... and what has it achieved, absolutely nothing. I have a number for someone in A4, as I said before, and if I see him f@ck around next time, I'll report him. But in the meantime.. what's the point in us rabbiting on about it here? And in that spirit, I'm out! (Drops microphone, steps down off soap box, leaves room.)

Lusk_Doyle

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

what's the point in us rabbiting on about it here?

All great movements have humble beginnings...

JBokeh

Is it that it's expensive or a load of hassle to get a temporary road closure? I know for the Rås last year they had a bike cop waving in cars from the opposite direction about 200m in front of the pack,and another waving them back out after all the support cars had passed. Probably safer if it is on a busy road and people are determined to be at that.

Not sure how viable that idea is,it might just be easier to hand out bollockings after repeated incidents. I guess technically you can cross a broken white line on the road to overtake,so maybe that will have to be taken into account,or else it will have to be a black and white "no crossing the line"

A bit off topic, but a bit of pub talk I heard was that you can get points on your driving licence if you're caught doing something that would get you points on your driving licence in your car,i.e. dodgy overtaking,or not stopping at stop signs? Set of my B.S. alarm a bit but you never know

07Lapierre

JBokeh wrote: »

Is it that it's expensive or a load of hassle to get a temporary road closure? I know for the Rås last year they had a bike cop waving in cars from the opposite direction about 200m in front of the pack,and another waving them back out after all the support cars had passed. Probably safer if it is on a busy road and people are determined to be at that.

Not sure how viable that idea is,it might just be easier to hand out bollockings after repeated incidents. I guess technically you can cross a broken white line on the road to overtake,so maybe that will have to be taken into account,or else it will have to be a black and white "no crossing the line"

A bit off topic, but a bit of pub talk I heard was that you can get points on your driving licence if you're caught doing something that would get you points on your driving licence in your car,i.e. dodgy overtaking,or not stopping at stop signs? Set of my B.S. alarm a bit but you never know

yes it's expensive,
Requires advance notification of all residents along the route/circuit, (a leaflet dropped in EVERY letterbox)
Advance notification in the local press,
A detailed event management plan submitted to the local authority
A detailed traffic management plan ( diversion signs, possibly more marshals etc.)

It's a lot easier to run a race on an "open" road. You turn up..race, then go home.

07Lapierre

Some good advise in this article:
http://www.stickybottle.com/coaching/braking-bad-a-funny-but-invaluable-guide-to-the-early-season-racing-madness/