Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

Permabear · 18-03-2015 12:35PM

This post has been deleted.

Dan_Solo · 18-03-2015 12:37PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, again happy to quote OECD data when it suits the view that Irish consultants are paid twice the going rate in the UK.....

......less willing to accept OECD data when it shows that we enjoy a higher cost of living!

So, once again we can conclude you didn't read the article.
Higher cost of living!!!!! was factored in when they calculated Irish consultants earning twice the UK rate.
I'll link to the article again only if you promise to read it this time.

Dan_Solo · 18-03-2015 12:38PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

This would be the 2013 data that the 2014 Irish Times article said was "from last year"?

Jawgap · 18-03-2015 12:38PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

To use that old tired saying.......

If the facts are on your side, pound the facts into the table. If the law is on your side, pound the law into the table. If neither the facts nor the law are on your side, pound the table.

Shinner policy is about just pounding the table

Jawgap · 18-03-2015 12:39PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Christ,
These Shinners are getting Orwellian!

Too many lunches with the Clintons.....it's starting to rub off on them:D

clinton.png?w=300&h=222

Jawgap · 18-03-2015 12:42PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

Yea,grand.

Now, maybe you can answer my question.
What are the qualifications required to be a minister for health?

FG have appointed 2 GP's who's only answer is to increase management by 13% while overseeing a reduction in doctor numbers.

Not great on this 'phone posting' thing so might have to get back to you later...

Being a doctor certainly helps, ala Noël Browne - let me guess, eradicating TB from Ireland isn't enough of an achievement?

Jawgap · 18-03-2015 12:45PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Ah, I see now. This is a history thread and we're discussion old outdated policy proposals.
Seriously.

when the question is couched in terms that require a reference to documents previously published (and still on the Shinner website), then yes it's appropriate to reference them.

I can appreciate why your twisting on this one - it's quite inconvenient to state there was never any intent to cut salaries to €100k, when there clearly was.

Calina · 18-03-2015 12:47PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You did actually Calina when you said what the cut details weren't important "it's the principle".

It is correct that I pointed out that the cut details are not important in the context of the principle of cutting incomes. However, I did not generalise this to mean all numbers the way you are implying. I specified which set of numbers were less important than the principle of cutting.

So actually Dan, I did not say "numbers don't matter at all".

Jawgap · 18-03-2015 12:50PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So, once again we can conclude you didn't read the article.
Higher cost of living!!!!! was factored in when they calculated Irish consultants earning twice the UK rate.
I'll link to the article again only if you promise to read it this time.

OK, from the top [again]

I resurrected the OECD data in response to this post.....

marienbad wrote: »

Why would there be a mass exodus ? even after the downturn we are for the most part overpaid compared to our fellow Europeans, be it doctors teachers, nurses, esb etc .

And let stop kidding ourselves at some level it is always about money , but that is never said - some euphemism is used - work life balance , student interests whatever .

So if it gives you some kind of release post this wonderful, totemic IT article.....

.......that has nothing to do with what I posted.

Happyman42 · 18-03-2015 12:53PM

Godge wrote: »

Eh Dan, it went like this.

OP quoted a radical SF policy of cutting public servants salaries to 100k. Sane posters questioned the policy saying it will never work and consultants will leave and we won't have any doctors. Shinnerbots rushed to defend said policy misquoting and misinterpreting various newspaper articles and data.

It later emerges that SF have since backed off their policy and backed down along the lines the sane posters originally suggested. Shinnerbots who defended original policy left a bit embarrassed.

Yet you think those who criticised the original earlier SF policy are the ones who were blind???

Well I for one, had very little to say about 'policy' and actually made the point that these are 'policy proposals' and not policy because they are not in a position to implement policy.
I contested the stated fact and given that a wage cut would lead to a 'mass exodus' and 'collapse' of the health service and presented facts to back that up and comparisons to countries of similar size and what they had done to ensure they had no crippling 'mass exodus'.
I was countered with claims that those surveyed where 'lying' 'misleading' 'telling porkies' (take your pick) to mask the fact that they are greedy exploiters.
Presumably those answering the surveys in Norway are 'lying' 'misleading' 'telling porkies' (take your pick) too when they say that better work conditions and work life balance are what is keeping them there, and that they are really staying for the money (around 100,000e)
Confused? Stay tuned to AntiSFbot FM for more.

BoJack Horseman · 18-03-2015 12:53PM

Dog of Tears wrote: »

Can everyone stop using 'words' and 'numbers' to debunk Shinner policy.

It's simply not fair.

Shinner policy is formulated primarily on the basis of trying to appeal to the most people possible in order to get their hands on the levers of power. Whether it actually makes and sense is entirely irrelevant.

People using logic and indeed, mathematics, to discredit these policies are simply not playing fair.

I'm still waiting for one of the cultists to show how an NHS will be delivered by below average health funding.

Shinnernomics, more an art than a science.

Jawgap · 18-03-2015 12:56PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I'm still waiting for one of the cultists to show how an NHS will be delivered by below average health funding.

Shinnernomics, more an art than a science.

Actually, you're wrong!

A service comparable to the NHS will be delivered by SF by bringing funding up to the required level.

What they haven't yet revealed (for obvious reasons) is where the magic money trees will be planted to provide the funding

for health, education, social welfare etc.

Anybody know if money trees can also serve as carbon sinks?

Permabear · 18-03-2015 01:04PM

This post has been deleted.

K-9 · 18-03-2015 01:39PM

Bear with me for 10 minutes while I go through the thread.

K-9 · 18-03-2015 02:16PM

Mod:

Ok, I've spent the last half an hour going through the thread, moving posts and carding people despite numerous on thread friendly warnings from mods.

Waiters in a cafe would be paid over time for this crap!

This thread is here to discuss SF's health proposals and associated health policy stuff, it's as simple as that.

The other SF thread is for general party and economic stuff.

There are people here willing to discuss and debate like adults, anybody posting to take digs at other posters or cheap goes at SF or other politicians is not welcome here, you'll be ejected, simple as, while those who are willing to partake carry on and enjoy the thread.

Thanks.

TheDoc · 18-03-2015 05:02PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It's somewhat a redundant argument since it will never change, party get's elected, cabinet positions go to staunch supporters, or people who brought in massive votes, all that stuff we know about.

There is rarely someone ever put in place that's actually "qualified" to do the role. Being a GP does not equate as relevant experience to be Minister for Health. We put people in place totally out of their depth, and the departments end up run as always by the senior ranking civil servants who are faceless, have no accountability, and a wonderful benefit of job security.

Which is mental. If I was appointed as a Dept. Head, into a department that has a track record of being utterly rubbish and wasteful, the senior management would be out on their ear, and I'd bring my own people in. Nope, not in goverment.

The Department of Health, is essentially being the head honcho for one of the biggest employers and organisations in the country, I always laugh when commentators and journalists seem perplexed why it always goes wrong.

Can comfortably say now that Varadker most likely won't get out of it with his reputation intact, and it's why he was put in there.

Ó Caoláin has experience working as a branch manager and then in senior management. So obviously immediately you would assume there is some experience there working in an organisation at small - medium sized level, and having the skills and experience that a GP for example, would never have.

Then again he got that experience in the 70's, which is totally out dated at this stage.

When a Minister for Health comes along with proper experience, and the ability to turf out the senior management and bring in fresh people, then the health service might see proper change.

At the moment money just gets pumped into an inefficent void.

LeeMajors · 18-03-2015 09:15PM

Eerily quiet in here today........
Has the debunking concluded?:)

BoJack Horseman · 18-03-2015 09:18PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

Eerily quiet in here today........
Has the debunking concluded?:)

So, an NHS delivered from just a very modest improvement in funding. (About 4.6% at best)

SF thinks it will work.

Do you?

LeeMajors · 18-03-2015 09:24PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

So, an NHS delivered from just a very modest improvement in funding. (About 4.6% at best)

SF thinks it will work.

Do you?

This thread is seemingly about Sinn Fein's alleged plan to cut hospital consultants pay to a maximum of €100k pa.
What say you?

BoJack Horseman · 18-03-2015 09:28PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

This thread is seemingly about Sinn Fein's alleged plan to cut hospital consultants pay to a maximum of €100k pa.
What say you?

I'm against it.

What opinion have you on the Shinner/NHS plan in general.

Deliverable with the resources intended to allocate?

(Or will you dodge again?)

LeeMajors · 18-03-2015 09:31PM

Oh yea, and the mass exodus of consultants and NCHD's that will follow apparently.

This is the bit that gets me, since FG took over in 2011 and their 2 ministers of health have been at the helm, we've seen a 13% increase in middle and senior managers and a reduction in doctors per 1,000 head of population from 3.1 to 2.7.

Somehow, SF's plan that never was, is being held responsible for this on this thread.

Government supporters attempting to blame a party who were never in government in the 26 counties on what's actually happening under their watch is a new one on me.
I mean, we're used to them blaming everything on FFail, even after 4 years in office, but blaming and attacking a party who have never been in power here???

LeeMajors · 18-03-2015 09:33PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I'm against it.

What opinion have you on the Shinner/NHS plan in general.

Deliverable with the resources intended to allocate?

(Or will you dodge again?)

Perhaps you could show me this Shinner/NHS plan and I'll comment then.

BoJack Horseman · 18-03-2015 09:33PM

I asked, if you think an NHS can be delivered on just €600m more, or, that SF are incorrect?

Jawgap · 18-03-2015 09:35PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

This thread is seemingly about Sinn Fein's alleged plan to cut hospital consultants pay to a maximum of €100k pa.
What say you?

Nothing 'alleged' about the plan - they had it, they binned it in favour of a tokenistic.....

» Reduce consultants’ pay by 15% on income between €150,000 and €200,000; and 30% on income of over €200,000 per annum: saves €9 million

BoJack Horseman · 18-03-2015 09:36PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

Perhaps you could show me this Shinner/NHS plan and I'll comment then.

Just for you hun.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2011/HealthDoc.pdf

Not that you need me to show you.

It's on your website.

LeeMajors · 18-03-2015 09:39PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Nothing 'alleged' about the plan - they had it, they binned it in favour of a tokenistic.....

So a 15% cut on pay between €150k and €200k results in a cap of €100k?
Round and round it goes.........

RecordStraight · 18-03-2015 09:40PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

This thread is seemingly about Sinn Fein's alleged plan to cut hospital consultants pay to a maximum of €100k pa.
What say you?

Lee, we've known for days now that Sinn Fein have binned that position and are now looking to merely cut the pay of people earning over 150k by a third, plus taking more tax off them.

Edit: Ah, I see a figure of a 15% cut being bandied about now. Where did that come from??

LeeMajors · 18-03-2015 09:40PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Just for you hun.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2011/HealthDoc.pdf

Not that you need me to show you.

It's on your website.

My website?

Why would I have SF's health policy document on my website?
Sure I don't even work in the health sector.

Jawgap · 18-03-2015 09:42PM

Just on the point of docs bailing because of salaries or lack thereof......

Salary one reason HSE director quit to go back to Australia

The “much-reduced” salary in Ireland compared with Australia was too much of a financial challenge for him, according to the doctor who stepped down suddenly last month from his post in charge of public hospitals.

Dr Tony O’Connell, who came to Ireland from Australia last year, resigned unexpectedly as the Health Service Executive’s (HSE) national director for acute hospitals on January 5th. He had been less than nine months in the post, one of the most senior in the health service.

He added: “I have found the much-reduced take-home salary in my current position, compared to other positions I have held in Australia, too much of a financial challenge.”

So I guess the Shinner's plans are fine, as long as we don't want world class physicians staffing our health system.

LeeMajors · 18-03-2015 09:43PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Just for you hun.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2011/HealthDoc.pdf

Not that you need me to show you.

Very old looking document that.
What year is that from?

Here, you know what I could do?
I could produce an old FG document where they state that 'a tax on the family home is immoral and unjust'.
Is that still their policy do you think?

Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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