Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

LeeMajors · 17-03-2015 12:12PM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I'm not aware of the numerous studies. But for a profession who put money well down the list, their unions certainly seem to make a big issue of it whenever there is any threat to reduce their salaries. And money was the major issue for them in the very protracted negotiations over the years about Consultant salaries.

I doubt if they would be impressed by the Sinn Fein plans for salary caps / reductions and higher taxation for public servants (this is a thread about Sinn Fein).

And no doubt the usual sources will be trying to add these doctors to the "whole generation" of people being forced abroad by unemployment. When this is clearly not the case.

Are there any studies about what is attracting foreign doctors here to work in our health service. Where is money on the list for them?

Well, I produced the study on NCHD's on this and the other thread so maybe you can produce a study regarding foreign doctors coming to work here?

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 12:50PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I know you think being all bullish will work here but it was posted quite a number of times what kind of doctor "SF would be getting in" and you completely failed to spot that medical qualifications aren't assessed by any political party at all. In the end it was 'lil 'ol me that had to point this out.
Not really in interested in what your job is as it makes no difference to this proven fact. We can only go on what you (fail to) post, not what expertise you claim to have later on. In fact I wouldn't be too keen to advertise it was my job if I'd just shown everybody I couldn't do it at all!

Yes as in this is the type of doctor SF policies would be getting in through their policies!

And I've not claimed any expertise.

Currently doing my job at the minute - being a member of the bourgeoise, it's a full time job oppressung the lower classes

- no time for public holidays!

Permabear · 17-03-2015 01:01PM

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LeeMajors · 17-03-2015 01:06PM

Permabear wrote: »

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That's alright so.
As long as we know that consultants are holding the government to ransom with their wage demands.
Doesn't explain how or why consultants in the UK, including nothern Ireland, are able to accept lower pay scales though.

Permabear · 17-03-2015 01:13PM

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LeeMajors · 17-03-2015 01:15PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

"The government has been forced to restore salaries in order to fill those vacancies."

What would you call it?

17-03-2015 01:19PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

...
Doesn't explain how or why consultants in the UK, including nothern Ireland, are able to accept lower pay scales though.

Correct. It also doesn't aim to explain that.

What it does show, is that a reduction in salary offered has previously lead to a reduction in the quantity of labour supplied in the past.

What's being discussed are the potential effects a reduction in salary might have on the quantity of labour supplied in the future.

One might posit that we could use the past example to predict the likely outcome.

Permabear · 17-03-2015 01:19PM

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17-03-2015 01:20PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

"The government has been forced to restore salaries in order to fill those vacancies."

What would you call it?

I am forced to pay money in order to receive lunch.

I am forced to eat correctly in order to remain healthy.

I am forced to work in order to earn a living.

Calina · 17-03-2015 01:22PM

On a related note, if we are in a zone where we are importing doctors, it's worth looking at the conditions in the country where we are importing them from.

In 2012, Ireland had 2.7 physicians per thousand people. This was a drop from 3.2 in 2010 by the way and I don't see a more recent figure for Ireland there.

If we are pulling a lot of our doctors from Pakistan, for example, as mentioned by a number of posters as an example in the context of where our third country doctors are coming from, we are removing medical expertise from a country which in 2010 had 0.8 physicians per thousand people.

(citation World Bank)

I'd argue that from a global development point of view it isn't great to be siphoning medical expertise from countries with a chronically low provision.

For comparison, the figures in Europe range from around the 2.7/2.8 mark in Ireland and the UK up to 3.8 in Germany and 4.1 in Italy. There's a preponderance around the lower end of the scale although one thing worth noting is that the most recent data is not available for all countries.

I'm not familiar with where our third country med staff are coming from but Pakistan was raised as an example here. I'm personally familiar with South Africa for non-consultant medical staff and the figure there is also around the 0.8.

In the meantime, having gone to the Sinn Féin website to find their health policy, I find this 2011 document on health which is on their website here. Given the absence of anything more recent, I have to say their health policy is based on figures which are 4 years out of date, include things like ringfencing 12% of the budget to mental health and making mental health provision an all-island policy for no obvious reason that I can understand and the abolition of the national treatment purchase fund.

Calina · 17-03-2015 01:30PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

That's alright so.
As long as we know that consultants are holding the government to ransom with their wage demands.
Doesn't explain how or why consultants in the UK, including nothern Ireland, are able to accept lower pay scales though.

Are you assuming that the sole difference between conditions in the UK/NI and the Republic of Ireland is purely financial?

I'd find that difficult to believe. There have historically been other issues in terms of working hours, especially for doctors at earlier stages in their careers; there are key organisational differences in terms of lots of other areas of life such as transport and general public services. While I can't speak for NI, the UK is significantly more urbanised which has an impact on life quality in terms of access to things people might want to spend their time doing like theatre/music/sports facilities. Ireland is severely limited on all of those aspects of life.

Most people do not make these decisions on the basis of money alone, but it can often be a balancer against other disadvantages. For example, I'd cheerfully take a lower salary in Cork compared to what I need to have a life in Dublin.

I think you are mistaken in assuming the issue is purely monetary. It seems to me that the disadvantages that people perceive to living in Ireland require a premium on the salary to make the positions attractive to an adequate number of candidates.

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 01:31PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

That's alright so.
As long as we know that consultants are holding the government to ransom with their wage demands.
Doesn't explain how or why consultants in the UK, including nothern Ireland, are able to accept lower pay scales though.

It's not just their wage demands.

Certain specialisms (oncology, for example) are heavily involved in research and/or teaching. Those consultants will be put off unless the proper research infrastructure is in place - again that requires multi-disciplinary teams to be in place, and a lot of the people who make up those teams simply won't go into the HSE because of the poor wages and conditions.

LeeMajors · 17-03-2015 01:34PM

Calina wrote: »

Are you assuming that the sole difference between conditions in the UK/NI and the Republic of Ireland is purely financial?

I'd find that difficult to believe. There have historically been other issues in terms of working hours, especially for doctors at earlier stages in their careers; there are key organisational differences in terms of lots of other areas of life such as transport and general public services. While I can't speak for NI, the UK is significantly more urbanised which has an impact on life quality in terms of access to things people might want to spend their time doing like theatre/music/sports facilities. Ireland is severely limited on all of those aspects of life.

Most people do not make these decisions on the basis of money alone, but it can often be a balancer against other disadvantages. For example, I'd cheerfully take a lower salary in Cork compared to what I need to have a life in Dublin.

I think you are mistaken in assuming the issue is purely monetary. It seems to me that the disadvantages that people perceive to living in Ireland require a premium on the salary to make the positions attractive to an adequate number of candidates.

My whole point in the last couple of pages has been that it's not purely monetary.
You've actually backed up the point I was making with this post.
Thanks, now maybe some others will put their prejudices away and try to understand the issue.

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 01:34PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

"The government has been forced to restore salaries in order to fill those vacancies."

What would you call it?

The market.

I bailed from my PS job once it became impossible to ignore the salary differential with the private sector.

The guy who replaced me works for less, but has less than 3 years post-qualification experience. I'm sure he's doing a bang up job

LeeMajors · 17-03-2015 01:35PM

Jawgap wrote: »

It's not just their wage demands.

Listen, you can't have it both ways in your continuing attack on SF.
The OP's points have been long since proven wrong.

Calina · 17-03-2015 01:36PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

My whole point in the last couple of pages has been that it's not purely monetary.
You've actually backed up the point I was making with this post.
Thanks, now maybe some others will put their prejudices away and try to understand the issue.

You are not understanding the issue Lee.

I have made it clear that the money requirement has to offset gaps in other areas.

Which Sinn Féin's 4 year old policy makes the grand total of no effort to identify and deal with.

Cutting the salary will not make the other problems go away. Hence, cutting the salary will make working in Ireland unattractive.

Sure it's not about money in the grand scheme of things, but it's the money that Sinn Féin's policy is addressing. Not the grand scheme of things.

17-03-2015 01:39PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

Listen, you can't have it both ways in your continuing attack on SF.
The OP's points have been long since proven wrong.

have they???

LeeMajors · 17-03-2015 01:39PM

Calina wrote: »

You are not understanding the issue Lee.

I have made it clear that the money requirement has to offset gaps in other areas.

Which Sinn Féin's 4 year old policy makes the grand total of no effort to identify and deal with.

Cutting the salary will not make the other problems go away. Hence, cutting the salary will make working in Ireland unattractive.

Sure it's not about money in the grand scheme of things, but it's the money that Sinn Féin's policy is addressing. Not the grand scheme of things.

Ah ok, I understand now.
SF's entire health policy revolves around cutting pay and nothing else.

Is that it?

JacquesDeLad · 17-03-2015 01:39PM

For a guy claims to run a business Lee Majors seems very new to the concept of supply and demand in the labour market.

Maybe he only uses volunteers at the Elf Workshop.

LeeMajors · 17-03-2015 01:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

have they???

He claimed SF's policy was a cap of €100,000 on consultants and GP's.
That was proven not to be the case.

Of course, you'll tell me now that wasn't what he meant......:rolleyes:

Permabear · 17-03-2015 01:43PM

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Calina · 17-03-2015 01:43PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

Ah ok, I understand now.
SF's entire health policy revolves around cutting pay and nothing else.

Is that it?

Why don't you read it and find out Lee? I provided a link to it in one of my posts this morning.

LeeMajors · 17-03-2015 01:46PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Or we could fix the 'other factors' i.e long hours, undefined career paths, badly managed hospitals etc etc...
Much easier to do a bertie on it though, throw more money at it in wages.....
Then again, there is an election looming!

LeeMajors · 17-03-2015 01:47PM

Anyway lads, have fun.
Off out to the parade with the wife and kids.....

Permabear · 17-03-2015 01:50PM

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JacquesDeLad · 17-03-2015 01:54PM

Attention All:

I'm off to do some normal everyday stuff because I'm a normal everyday kinda guy. Not an internet bot for a political party. I'm so average and well balanced I thought I'd tell you, just so you know.

Have a great St. Patrick's Day!

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 02:00PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

Listen, you can't have it both ways in your continuing attack on SF.
The OP's points have been long since proven wrong.

Of course I can

This is a thread on SF's health policy and the impact it may or may not have on the health service.

SF's health policy document does not add up - literally in some parts.

It is long on rhetoric and short on detail - it's not that difficult to pull apart.

Happyman42 · 17-03-2015 02:16PM

This kind of posting

JacquesDeLad wrote: »

Attention All:

I'm off to do some normal everyday stuff because I'm a normal everyday kinda guy. Not an internet bot for a political party. I'm so average and well balanced I thought I'd tell you, just so you know.

Have a great St. Patrick's Day!

from somebody who contributes this to a debate on health?

JacquesDeLad wrote:

I heard from a source close to Sinn Fein that they plan to increase the number of doctors by retraining young offenders through general medical FAS courses. Within two years there'll be thousands of doctors and there'll be no one on a hospital waiting list.

I have to hand it to them. That it is really thinking outside box.

And you want us to believe that you aren't an irrational antiSFbot? :rolleyes:

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 02:19PM

Happyman42 wrote: »

This kind of posting

from somebody who contributes this to a debate on health?

And you want us to believe that you aren't an irrational antiSFbot? :rolleyes:

Now is that more or less irrational than the idea that jobs have to be created and held open for new borns?

Happyman42 · 17-03-2015 02:22PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Now is that more or less irrational than the idea that jobs have to be created and held open for new borns?

It may or may not. But throwing allegations at others doesn't really work when you engage in bot-like posting yourself.
Silly is as silly does etc etc.

Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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