Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 01:25AM

JacquesDeLad wrote: »

Presuming Sinn Fein don't make private hospitals illegal this policy would create an ever bigger divide between the rich and the poor.

Poor people would be treated by the worst medical staff available while the rich would get the best.

It's almost Libertarian when you think about it. People would buy the best medical insurance they afford, or just go abroad for treatment, because they wouldn't want to be treated by the rejects who ended up in public hosptials.

They're balls on to create a single tier system here. I'd say if that happened pretty much overnight you'd see private hospitals sprout up over the Border, or people would be Ryanairing it to Liverpool, a Manchester etc.

Godge · 17-03-2015 01:26AM

Jawgap wrote: »

They're balls on to create a single tier system here. I'd say if that happened pretty much overnight you'd see private hospitals sprout up over the Border, or people would be Ryanairing it to Liverpool, a Manchester etc.

New York would be the destination of choice for those who have the money or the friends.

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 01:27AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I know I asked you to do the math earlier, but I'd better lend a hand here:
2014 - 1 = 2013
Does this help?

Salaries in 2013 were not the same as in 2014, so no, it doesn't really help at all.

Dan_Solo · 17-03-2015 01:27AM

Jawgap wrote: »

I knew exactly who it was - hence my incredulity that someone would think it was the HSE

......and it's just the 'Medical Council' - you don't have to preface it with 'Irish'

You didn't seem to know earlier or I'm sure you would have said so instead of just saying what it's not and waiting to be told yourself.

Dan_Solo · 17-03-2015 01:29AM

Godge wrote: »

Great, thanks for posting that.

It divides doctors into two categories - GPs and specialists.

By doing so it seems that NCHDs are excluded from the salary comparison (presumably because they are treated as still in training) even though they are a key cog in the delivery of Irish health services, this painting a very false picture of Irish hospital doctor remuneration.

This is one of the cases where the full picture is not obtained from the OECD survey because it is a flawed comparison.

Hold your horses there a minute.
So now you've failed utterly on the consultant salary angle you want to start again with NCHDs?

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 01:30AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You didn't seem to know earlier or I'm sure you would have said so instead of just saying what it's not and waiting to be told yourself.

Of course I knew - did you never read any of those articles about the MC's fitness to practice proceedings when they're pinging some doctor for poor professional practice?

The HSE as the arbiter of doctors' quals - still grinning at that one:D

Dan_Solo · 17-03-2015 01:30AM

Jawgap wrote: »

Salaries in 2013 were not the same as in 2014, so no, it doesn't really help at all.

But the article says it references 2013 data, as in published 2014, salaries from a year before.
So they're 10% different huh? And?

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 01:31AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But the article says it references 2013 data, as in published 2014, salaries from a year before.
So they're 10% different huh? And?

So the article is out of date too?

Godge · 17-03-2015 01:32AM

Jawgap wrote: »

Where does your data show that in 2014 Irish consultants are paid twice what their UK counterparts are?

I have figured out how SF will be able to do it.

In the UK the base salaries are well below the Irish scales. However, any consultant who turns up and does his job is eligible for a Clinical Excellence Award worth nearly as much as their salary.

http://www.hospitaldr.co.uk/guidance/applying-for-clinical-excellence-awards

Given the lower income tax rates in the UK, net income would be higher than in Ireland if you have a clinical excellence award.

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 01:34AM

Godge wrote: »

I have figured out how SF will be able to do it.

In the UK the base salaries are well below the Irish scales. However, any consultant who turns up and does his job is eligible for a Clinical Excellence Award worth nearly as much as their salary.

http://www.hospitaldr.co.uk/guidance/applying-for-clinical-excellence-awards

Given the lower income tax rates in the UK, net income would be higher than in Ireland if you have a clinical excellence award.

Clinical Excellence Awards? Sounds elitist - can't see the Dear Leader in SF going for things like that - people might be incentivised

Dan_Solo · 17-03-2015 01:35AM

Jawgap wrote: »

So the article is out of date too?

If you want to say something less than 2 full years old is "out of date" well you know what to expect the next time you want to come out with "the IRA did something or other in 1983".

frankbrett · 17-03-2015 01:35AM

Godge wrote: »

New York would be the destination of choice for those who have the money or the friends.

Ah the old 'dig out' :-)

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 01:37AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If you want to say something less than 2 full years old is "out of date" well you know what to expect the next time you want to come out with "the IRA did something or other in 1983".

The article is out of date because the data is out of date.

Atrocities are always atrocities - things like proxy bombs, hopefully, will never been seen as legitimate.

Your little jibe isn't exactly about health policy, now, is it - are we trying to pivot?

Dan_Solo · 17-03-2015 01:38AM

Godge wrote: »

I have figured out how SF will be able to do it.

Meaningless filler.

Godge wrote: »

In the UK the base salaries are well below the Irish scales. However, any consultant who turns up and does his job is eligible for a Clinical Excellence Award worth nearly as much as their salary.

http://www.hospitaldr.co.uk/guidance/applying-for-clinical-excellence-awards

Wow, just wow. Entirely evidence and data free. This award exists therefore every UK doctor has one and at the top end of the scale.
Care to get back to us with anything approaching DATA? You know, an auld number or two like you're constantly whining and demanding others here to get for you?

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 01:43AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I told the junior doctor in 'no uncertain' terms that he didn't want come back again and say the consultant was 'busy'. Any threat of 'violence' was in his mind, I wouldn't harm a fly when it comes to my 89 yr old mum. :rolleyes:
My mum seen the consultant.

Nice - given what ED staff routinely have to put up with, causing an overworked junior doctor to fear he was under threat of violence is........

.........something I leave others to make up their minds about;)

Dan_Solo · 17-03-2015 01:44AM

Jawgap wrote: »

The HSE as the arbiter of doctors' quals - still grinning at that one:D

Not as funny as you not noticing when a guy said SF can hand out medical licenses.
But hey, Medical Council? Sinn Fein? I can see how you might get those confused there Jawsie!

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 01:46AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Not as funny as you not noticing when a guy said SF can hand out medical licenses.
But hey, Medical Council? Sinn Fein? I can see how you might get those confused there Jawsie!

Nice back-pedalling.

Guess confusion over medical governance can now be safely added to the growing list of topics Shinners know nothing about.

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 01:50AM

Anyway, would love to stop and chat but I've had my laughs for the evening and some of us have an early start for work - unfortunately only Ireland has St Patrick's day as a holiday.

'night all!

Dan_Solo · 17-03-2015 02:03AM

Jawgap wrote: »

Nice back-pedalling.

Guess confusion over medical governance can now be safely added to the growing list of topics Shinners know nothing about.

No back pedalling at all. The first claim was days ago that "SF" would be getting in substandard doctors. You didn't notice. You didn't notice when it was said today either.
I think I'm doing alright mixing up the HSE and Medical Council compared to you not knowing the difference between Sinn Fein and Medical Council. Did you think they said Army Council?

Happyman42 · 17-03-2015 02:04AM

Jawgap wrote: »

Nice - given what ED staff routinely have to put up with, causing an overworked junior doctor to fear he was under threat of violence is........

.........something I leave others to make up their minds about;)

Causing my mother, (who had probably paid VHI enough to keep that junior doctor and several of his family in a manner they where entirely accustomed to] any more distress and not inconsiderable discomfort necessitated actions I wouldn't be proud of, but that is the mess the system is currently in, and you STILL think that the HSE are competent to fill appointments, run a service and keep newly qualified doctors in this country.
There's a 'nomics' that describes that ideology. hmmmmmm.......can we agree on bollixnomics?

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 07:05AM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

No back pedalling at all. The first claim was days ago that "SF" would be getting in substandard doctors. You didn't notice. You didn't notice when it was said today either.
I think I'm doing alright mixing up the HSE and Medical Council compared to you not knowing the difference between Sinn Fein and Medical Council. Did you think they said Army Council?

And where did I confuse SF and the Medical Council?

As I said, best pick a different policy area, or stick with this one and sooner or later I'll have another little anecdote like the one about the guy thinking the HSE authorises doctors to practice.

And if you knew the area I work in, you'd realise why that's funny

Jawgap · 17-03-2015 07:17AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Causing my mother, (who had probably paid VHI enough to keep that junior doctor and several of his family in a manner they where entirely accustomed to] any more distress and not inconsiderable discomfort necessitated actions I wouldn't be proud of, but that is the mess the system is currently in, and you STILL think that the HSE are competent to fill appointments, run a service and keep newly qualified doctors in this country.
There's a 'nomics' that describes that ideology. hmmmmmm.......can we agree on bollixnomics?

.......ah, the "I pay your wages" mentality! As I said, nice. There are more effective ways to deal with people and even be assertive with them without placing them in fear of violence.

Frankly, a junior doctor in an ED deserves better treatment than you meted out to him - the state of the system is not his fault - and how do you know anything about his lifestyle or family circumstances or 'manner they are accustomed to'?

Also, where did I say "that the HSE are competent to fill appointments, run a service and keep newly qualified doctors in this country." I think I've been fairly consistently scathing and specific in my criticism of the HSE.

Dan_Solo · 17-03-2015 10:00AM

Jawgap wrote: »

And where did I confuse SF and the Medical Council?

As I said, best pick a different policy area, or stick with this one and sooner or later I'll have another little anecdote like the one about the guy thinking the HSE authorises doctors to practice.

And if you knew the area I work in, you'd realise why that's funny

I know you think being all bullish will work here but it was posted quite a number of times what kind of doctor "SF would be getting in" and you completely failed to spot that medical qualifications aren't assessed by any political party at all. In the end it was 'lil 'ol me that had to point this out.
Not really in interested in what your job is as it makes no difference to this proven fact. We can only go on what you (fail to) post, not what expertise you claim to have later on. In fact I wouldn't be too keen to advertise it was my job if I'd just shown everybody I couldn't do it at all!

Redbishop · 17-03-2015 11:01AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Causing my mother, (who had probably paid VHI enough to keep that junior doctor and several of his family in a manner they where entirely accustomed to] any more distress and not inconsiderable discomfort necessitated actions I wouldn't be proud of, but that is the mess the system is currently in, and you STILL think that the HSE are competent to fill appointments, run a service and keep newly qualified doctors in this country.
There's a 'nomics' that describes that ideology. hmmmmmm.......can we agree on bollixnomics?

I m sorry bout your mother first of all. You are making assumptions about the lifestyle of a doctor you probably know nothing about and indeed are quite condescending in this issue. You need to take your gripe to the VHI and indeed the consultant responsible and the HSE. Have you done this already? The facts speak for themselves and indeed the HSE is a mess and we all deserve better. To talk about bollixnomics though if you think anything in the SF policies is going to make the health service better then you are not as smart as I think you might be. Their tax and wage policies will drive more doctors, nurses and consultants away from the service. If you think differently then that is where the bollixnomics comes in. To put water charges in place at least leaves a few hundred millions more in the pot that might finally add something more to the service. SF are opposed to all extra fundraising except through the rich must carry the rest of us and make up the short fall. There go your consultants, bad as they are if they get a better deal elsewhere they will go. I d do it myself.

LeeMajors · 17-03-2015 11:10AM

Redbishop wrote: »

I m sorry bout your mother first of all. You are making assumptions about the lifestyle of a doctor you probably know nothing about and indeed are quite condescending in this issue. You need to take your gripe to the VHI and indeed the consultant responsible and the HSE. Have you done this already? The facts speak for themselves and indeed the HSE is a mess and we all deserve better. To talk about bollixnomics though if you think anything in the SF policies is going to make the health service better then you are not as smart as I think you might be. Their tax and wage policies will drive more doctors, nurses and consultants away from the service. If you think differently then that is where the bollixnomics comes in. To put water charges in place at least leaves a few hundred millions more in the pot that might finally add something more to the service. SF are opposed to all extra fundraising except through the rich must carry the rest of us and make up the short fall. There go your consultants, bad as they are if they get a better deal elsewhere they will go. I d do it myself.

Of course the numerous studies produced on this board have shown that the reason doctors are leaving the Irish health service are many.
Money, being well down the list.
Believe it or not, most doctors become doctors because it's a 'caring' profession, where job satisfaction and being able to make a difference to peoples lives is paramount.
The main reasons they leave the Irish service is for better working conditions, better facilities, a better 'life balance' and a fairly well defined career path in front of them.

The problem with a lot of posters on this site is that they see everything in monetary terms, nothing else matters, even the studies of actual doctors who give their reasons for leaving.

That's the mentality that got this country to where it's at.

Redbishop · 17-03-2015 11:31AM

LeeMajors wrote: »

Of course the numerous studies produced on this board have shown that the reason doctors are leaving the Irish health service are many.
Money, being well down the list.
Believe it or not, most doctors become doctors because it's a 'caring' profession, where job satisfaction and being able to make a difference to peoples lives is paramount.
The main reasons they leave the Irish service is for better working conditions, better facilities, a better 'life balance' and a fairly well defined career path in front of them.

The problem with a lot of posters on this site is that they see everything in monetary terms, nothing else matters, even the studies of actual doctors who give their reasons for leaving.

That's the mentality that got this country to where it's at.

I agree with most of that actually. Not unfortunately just the posters here though. Society as a whole use economics as the basis for their standard of living. Some posters believe that those fortunate enough to earn a higher wage and make a better standard of life from themselves should contribute more to the people who dont reach that standard and indeed through extra taxes they do contribute more. But they dont owe it to anybody to make them a better life, that is up to the individual themselves. There are to many ready to whinge about life's injustices and complain about everything, instead of getting off their arses and trying to improve themselves through a bit of hard work. There are so many educational opportunities available to people of all ages out there now that there is no excuse for most of them not trying to improve themselves if they wish and quit whinging about how much better some people are off compared to them. For the most part its down to attitude and work ethic that separate the wage gaps.

LeeMajors · 17-03-2015 11:38AM

Redbishop wrote: »

I agree with most of that actually. Not unfortunately just the posters here though. Society as a whole use economics as the basis for their standard of living. Some posters believe that those fortunate enough to earn a higher wage and make a better standard of life from themselves should contribute more to the people who dont reach that standard and indeed through extra taxes they do contribute more. But they dont owe it to anybody to make them a better life, that is up to the individual themselves. There are to many ready to whinge about life's injustices and complain about everything, instead of getting off their arses and trying to improve themselves through a bit of hard work. There are so many educational opportunities available to people of all ages out there now that there is no excuse for most of them not trying to improve themselves if they wish and quit whinging about how much better some people are off compared to them. For the most part its down to attitude and work ethic that separate the wage gaps.

+1.
When I left school in 1985 I started working as an assistant in a hardware shop.
I now have my own, reasonably successful, company and I employ people.

Nobody handed it to me, no government grants or incentives either, not once.

Redbishop · 17-03-2015 11:50AM

LeeMajors wrote: »

+1.
When I left school in 1985 I started working as an assistant in a hardware shop.
I know have my own, reasonably successful, company and I employ people.

Nobody handed it to me, no government grants or incentives either, not once.

I dont mean you in particular Lee or any individual. I worked my way through the education system myself as did my wife. We both worked after college and neither of us were ever supported through grants or help from home as neither of our parents could afford it. We got jobs and went to night school for years to improve our situation as we went along. We both still work hard. We reared our family and are currently funding two in college with no financial assistance. If SFs policies are to punish us through extra taxation and maybe wage cuts for that to keep somebody without that ethic that we had, then F**k them. We will go elsewhere again. We ve done it before when we had to. I dont think the state or anyone else owes me a living and I certainly dont believe I owe it to anyone else to carry them through me and my wifes hard work.

dxhound2005 · 17-03-2015 12:03PM

LeeMajors wrote: »

Of course the numerous studies produced on this board have shown that the reason doctors are leaving the Irish health service are many.
Money, being well down the list.
Believe it or not, most doctors become doctors because it's a 'caring' profession, where job satisfaction and being able to make a difference to peoples lives is paramount.
The main reasons they leave the Irish service is for better working conditions, better facilities, a better 'life balance' and a fairly well defined career path in front of them.

The problem with a lot of posters on this site is that they see everything in monetary terms, nothing else matters, even the studies of actual doctors who give their reasons for leaving.

That's the mentality that got this country to where it's at.

I'm not aware of the numerous studies. But for a profession who put money well down the list, their unions certainly seem to make a big issue of it whenever there is any threat to reduce their salaries. And money was the major issue for them in the very protracted negotiations over the years about Consultant salaries.

I doubt if they would be impressed by the Sinn Fein plans for salary caps / reductions and higher taxation for public servants (this is a thread about Sinn Fein).

And no doubt the usual sources will be trying to add these doctors to the "whole generation" of people being forced abroad by unemployment. When this is clearly not the case.

Are there any studies about what is attracting foreign doctors here to work in our health service. Where is money on the list for them?

Godge · 17-03-2015 12:09PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Meaningless filler.

Wow, just wow. Entirely evidence and data free. This award exists therefore every UK doctor has one and at the top end of the scale.
Care to get back to us with anything approaching DATA? You know, an auld number or two like you're constantly whining and demanding others here to get for you?

There is no data.

The OECD data is based on a number of false premises -

(1) that the salary for UK doctors is purely the salary scale, I have produced links to show that is wrong

(2) it leaves NCHDs out of the Irish data.

I don't have the raw data to be able to calculate the correct comparison (if I did, I would) but I have enough expert analytical skills to see the OECD comparison is flawed.

Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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