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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #872
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I assume from your posting here you have access to the internet?
    Don't think I need your expert help if you can't locate an OECD publication TBH.

    This OECD publication.....

    Ireland’s Action Plan for Jobs: a preliminary review

    That says
    Ireland’s labour market bounced back strongly in 2013, positive momentum having continued into 2014. Ireland is well on track to achieve the interim APJ target of 100,000 new jobs by 2016, while the longer-term aim of having 2.1 million employed people by 2020 also looks firmly within grasp.


  • #873
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I assume from your posting here you have access to the internet?
    Don't think I need your expert help if you can't locate an OECD publication TBH.


    Neither you nor the newspaper article you quote provide enough detail to enable anyone to be sure that they are reading the correct OECD publication. Do you have any idea how many papers, reports etc. that the OECD publishes every year?

    http://www.oecd.org/about/publishing/

    "OECD Publishing is one of the world’s largest publishers of books in the fields of economics and public affairs. It publishes more than 250 new books, 40 updated statistical databases, and thousands of new statistical tables, working papers, and journal articles each year."

    It is understandable that you (as a non-expert) are not aware of that but following my explanation, you will now have a better realisation that it is not a simple google search to find an OECD report that someone else is quoting.


  • #874
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Sorry the tone of incredulity was not properly conveyed.

    I'm not interested in articles, it's the data I'd like to see? You've been quick enough to disparage the publishing of articles by others, perhaps it would be better if you could just post up a link to the data.

    Anyone can write an article.
    BTW, this one has gone into the locker for the next "Gerry Adams didn't let motorist pull out crisis" headline from the Indo! :D


  • #875
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Ahem.

    Is "lack of self awareness" one of those filters you're talking about?

    There's a world of difference between salary data and a forecast - something rose Shinnernomics fails to grasp?


  • #876
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Poor dears. Only €127,000. Just as well it's nothing to do with the money. (unless you are calling Irish doctors liars). Are these the same doctors moaning about the OECD research? You know, the liar ones?

    I don't think anyone disagrees that consultants are overpaid and have over inflated egos and all that , but the question right now is surely if we cannot recruit enough of them at these salaries how can we do it so by reducing those salaries ?


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  • #877
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Godge wrote: »
    It is understandable that you (as a non-expert) are not aware of that but following my explanation, you will now have a better realisation that it is not a simple google search to find an OECD report that someone else is quoting.
    Jawsie's doing a decent job of finding them. Maybe he's a proper expert?


  • #878
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    BTW, this one has gone into the locker for the next "Gerry Adams didn't let motorist pull out crisis" headline from the Indo! :D
    Right now the articles are about him moving child rapists around the country. It will be a while before his motoring offences are the main story.

    Edit: actually that's way off topic for this thread. I really think an Sinn Fein/IRA rapist thread is becoming necessary.


  • #879
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    BTW, this one has gone into the locker for the next "Gerry Adams didn't let motorist pull out crisis" headline from the Indo! :D

    So that's a 'no' on the data then?

    If you haven't got it or can't interrogate the database just ask someone who can?


  • #880
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #881
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    JustTheOne wrote: »

    Over on Claire Byrne we had two women one from Slovakia saying how good Ireland is for employment and for the opportunity it gave her compared to her country.

    Not, according to some, good enough for doctors, despite what doctors say themselves.
    Never let the obvious truth get in the way of an antiSFbot rant though. :D


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  • #882
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Jawsie's doing a decent job of finding them. Maybe he's a proper expert?

    Not really. I'm just a hack.

    But you'd help your own arguments a lot better if you just lash up the data - like I did with the employment and GDP data.


  • #883
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    I think it's about a number of things. Money is a big one though.

    Slashing their pay - as SF plan - isn't exactly going to make them stick around/come her to work.

    The current health service minus lots of doctors = a lot worse health service

    Over the last 5 years in the UK, including Northern Ireland, they've increased the amount of doctors by 6,000 while reducing the amount of senior and middle managers by 23,000.

    Under FG here the amount of senior and middle managers has increased by 13% since 2011 while the number of doctors is static at 2.7 per 1000 (the same as northern Ireland, where they aren't paid as much)


  • #884
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Jawgap wrote: »
    So that's a 'no' on the data then?

    If you haven't got it or can't interrogate the database just ask someone who can?
    http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=HEALTH_STAT
    I must've got lucky finding that data, after all I'm no expert.


  • #885
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Oh wait... that's an opinion, not data. Spot the difference.


  • #886
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Over the last 5 years in the UK, including Northern Ireland, they've increased the amount of doctors by 6,000 while reducing the amount of senior and middle managers by 23,000.

    Under FG here the amount of senior and middle managers has increased by 13% since 2011 while the number of doctors is static at 2.7 per 1000 (the same as northern Ireland, where they aren't paid as much)
    Have they slashed the pay of doctors by over a third in the UK? Because that's the Sinn Fein plan.

    I'm not suggesting they aren't well paid, but if we can't get them to come here/stay here because their income is way down, we'll all suffer.


  • #887
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Another OECD recommendation for the Shinners......
    introduce water pricing for households, in a way that takes account of
    environmental, economic and social considerations;

    OECD Environmental Performance Reviews
    IRELAND
    CONCLUSIONS
    AND RECOMMENDATIONS


  • #888
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Not, according to some, good enough for doctors, despite what doctors say themselves.
    Why then do we struggle to retain doctors and have to hire a third of ours from countries like Pakistan? :confused:


  • #889
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=HEALTH_STAT
    I must've got lucky finding that data, after all I'm no expert.

    Now I'm just a hack, but where's the salary data in that lot that shows Irish consultants are paid at twice the rate of NHS consultants.

    If it's mortality & morbidity data you want, there's much more up to date stats available than that.

    Maybe go again for the salary data?


  • #890
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Oh wait... that's an opinion, not data. Spot the difference.
    The difference appears to be that if the OECD agrees with Sinn Fein, it's trustworthy.

    If the OECD disagrees (as it usually does) it's not trustworthy.

    Odd, that.


  • #891
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Have they slashed the pay of doctors by over a third in the UK? Because that's the Sinn Fein plan.

    I'm not suggesting they aren't well paid, but if we can't get them to come here/stay here because their income is way down, we'll all suffer.

    Slashing is a pejorative word, how many of the electorate would agree with this phraseology...'bringing their wages into line with what we can afford to pay'.

    Wasn't that the mantra as FG/Lab cut to ribbons the living standards of the middle and lower paid? We're sorry. everybody has to take a hit here.


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  • #892
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Slashing is a pejorative word, how many of the electorate would agree with this phraseology...'bringing their wages into line with what we can afford to pay'.
    Where would you say 'slashing' begins?
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Wasn't that the mantra as FG/Lab cut to ribbons the living standards of the middle and lower paid?
    I don't think 'mantra' means what you think it means.

    By the way, I've no objection to cutting the salaries of doctors to the minimum we can get away with.


  • #893
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #894
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Slashing is a pejorative word, how many of the electorate would agree with this phraseology...'bringing their wages into line with what we can afford to pay'.

    ....e.

    Everyone thinks that's a great idea until you're wheeled into A&E - nothing like knowing that the doctors that are about to treat you are the ones we could only get after the salaries were cut ;)


  • #895
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Have they slashed the pay of doctors by over a third in the UK? Because that's the Sinn Fein plan.

    I'm not suggesting they aren't well paid, but if we can't get them to come here/stay here because their income is way down, we'll all suffer.

    The SF plan would be to bring it in line with the EU average.

    Here's an interesting article you might be interested in, it's not all about money btw, work-life balance, working conditions/hours and career pathways seem to be the biggest problem.

    BTW, this article is regarding NCHD's, so the €150k cap proposed by SF would have very little effect on them.

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rcsismj.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2FChalikondaL-Emigration.pdf&ei=QWkHVc-LMMyR7Ab9g4DwDw&usg=AFQjCNFSVe7bNiI8ZrbgWsJ8BDjtPyLEpQ&sig2=Hd4ZHp8rpPElQFwU6kzlNg


    I would also remind you that this is happening, now, under the current FG/Labour government and not under a party that has never been in government in the 26 counties.


  • #896
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    The SF plan would be to bring it in line with the EU average.
    That's not much use if foreign doctors (and indeed our own) require a premium to work in Ireland, is it?

    Bye-bye premium, bye-bye doctors. I guess that's one way to save money.


  • #897
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    The SF plan would be to bring it in line with the EU average.

    Here's an interesting article you might be interested in, it's not all about money btw, work-life balance, working conditions/hours and career pathways seem to be the biggest problem.

    BTW, this article is regarding NCHD's, so the €150k cap proposed by SF would have very little effect on them.

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rcsismj.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2FChalikondaL-Emigration.pdf&ei=QWkHVc-LMMyR7Ab9g4DwDw&usg=AFQjCNFSVe7bNiI8ZrbgWsJ8BDjtPyLEpQ&sig2=Hd4ZHp8rpPElQFwU6kzlNg


    Great ...... We're going to be treated by average doctors if SF get in.

    They're kind of one of the professions who, when you have cause for their services, you'd like to hear how awesome they are, not just merely average.


  • #898
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=HEALTH_STAT
    I must've got lucky finding that data, after all I'm no expert.

    What has the life expectancy of females at birth got to do with consultants' salaries?:confused::confused:

    Maybe you could point us directly to the data you are relying on?


  • #899
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Everyone thinks that's a great idea until you're wheeled into A&E - nothing like knowing that the doctors that are about to treat you are the ones we could only get after the salaries were cut ;)

    600+ patients on trollies in A&E under FG/Labour in January 2015.

    A figure even the FFailures couldn't reach.

    Is that SF's fault too?


    Edit: Just seen the mod's post.
    Continue regarding health on another thread.


  • #900
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Paying our PS what we can afford is not 'slashing'. If we want a Troika free country it is what we have to do; pay what we can afford. Even if the wrong headed advice of the Troika is to get us to maintain our elitist culture. That is their perscription but it isn't our cure. Our 'cure' is to pay people at levels where we can actually supply a service.
    Great. Pay what we can afford.

    But what if what Sinn Fein decides we can afford (i.e. arbitrarily slashing salaries by over a third) isn't enough to hire/retain enough doctors and consultants?

    Why would they come here to work for that, when we can barely persuade decent Pakistani doctors to work here for 50% more than that?


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  • #901
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    600+ patients on trollies in A&E under FG/Labour in January 2015.

    A figure even the FFailures couldn't reach.

    Is that SF's fault too?


    Edit: Just seen the mod's post.
    Continue regarding health on another thread.
    I'm not sure that fewer doctors, possibly demotivated, possibly less qualified, on lower pay, is the solution.


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