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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #782
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    'I' = 'everybody'. There isn't any point discussing anything on that level.
    I was expressing a general principle Happyman. Perhaps you can explain the logic of somebody wanting to be paid more to work in a country with excellent public services?

    If not...I'm not sure what you are trying to say.


  • #783
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #784
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    PB, you are not Finnish...therefore....uh [REASONS]...and um...I declare victory in this thread.


  • #785
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    PB, you are not Finnish...therefore....uh [REASONS]...and um...I declare victory in this thread.

    You mean he didn't Finnish his sentence?


  • #786
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Issues regarding Nowegian Health services and statistics have been moved here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057397985#

    If the issue is resolved amongst you, and has a bearing on the rules of this forum, we can port back the conclusions in a nice easy to read post rather than have them clogging up the discussion on the rules thread.

    Please remove the inference that I started that thread and maybe the derogatory title? Might consider taking part in it then.


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  • #787
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    I was expressing a general principle Happyman. Perhaps you can explain the logic of somebody wanting to be paid more to work in a country with excellent public services?

    If not...I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

    Again and again you have been pointed to surveys and quotes from doctors who say the exact opposite of what you have been saying. Principally, that 'money' is not the key concern in their emigration and that 42% of them plan to return within 5 years.
    I presume 'money' here to mean 'payment they receive, in return for their labour' although your 'ego' that doesn't want to 'win' arguments (but a number of posts later schizophrenically claims victory :rolleyes:) might have something to say about that, starting with 'but I think the opposite is the case and money is the key...blah de blah de blah, rinse and repeat till the cows come home.:rolleyes:


  • #788
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Again and again you have been pointed to surveys and quotes from doctors who say the exact opposite of what you have been saying. Principally, that 'money' is not the key concern in their emigration and that 42% of them plan to return within 5 years.
    You linked to ONE survey.

    ONE.

    42% of LEAVING doctors plan to return. How many DO?

    Not enough, it seems, seeing as we have to import a third of our doctors from abroad.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I presume 'money' here to mean 'payment they receive, in return for their labour' although your 'ego' that doesn't want to 'win' arguments (but a number of posts later schizophrenically claims victory :rolleyes:) might have something to say about that, starting with 'but I think the opposite is the case and money is the key...blah de blah de blah, rinse and repeat till the cows come home.:rolleyes:
    I think you may have been confused here, taking some clearly jokey posts seriously. Have a look at them again. If still confused, get back to me. :)


  • #789
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    You linked to ONE survey.

    ONE.
    2 actually.
    2 relevant surveys.
    A. Showing how Norway doctors attitudes and better working conditions and work life balance affected their decision to stay in Norway.
    B. A comprehensive survey published as recently as last week showing that Irish doctors do not think money is a key factor and outlining their reasons for leaving which where; work life balance and work conditions.


    So that is:
    Happyman 2
    (pieces of actual evidence to back his claims that a 'mass exodus' will not neccessarily happen if doctors wages are brought into line with what we can actually afford to pay.)
    RecordStraight 1
    (1 mantra based on RecordStraight's personal ideology which is to make as much money as possible regardless of any other factors)


    Not enough, it seems, seeing as we have to import a third of our doctors from abroad.



    Did it ever dawn on you that the inability to fill posts may be a stunt or even incompetence on behalf of the HSE?
    A stunt, meaning, doesn't the claim 'we can't fill the posts' bolster the pay claims of the very people claiming that they can't fill the posts?

    Incompetence: Well I don't think even you would try to claim that the HSE is competent.
    I think you may have been confused here, taking some clearly jokey posts seriously. Have a look at them again. If still confused, get back to me. :)

    You may very well be fooling yourself there. But not me.


  • #790
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »

    Did it ever dawn on you that the inability to fill posts may be a stunt or even incompetence on behalf of the HSE?
    A stunt, meaning, doesn't the claim 'we can't fill the posts' bolster the pay claims of the very people claiming that they can't fill the posts?

    Incompetence: Well I don't think even you would try to claim that the HSE is competent.
    Did it occur to me that the HSE is importing one third of our doctors abroad specifically so they can drive up the pay of the Irish doctors who actually remain in the country for some reason??

    No. I can honestly say that did not occur to me. I'd say that idea would get a better reception on the Conspiracy Theories forum though.


  • #791
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Did it occur to me that the HSE is importing one third of our doctors abroad specifically so they can drive up the pay of the Irish doctors who actually remain in the country for some reason??

    No. I can honestly say that did not occur to me. I'd say that idea would get a better reception on the Conspiracy Theories forum though.

    Can you give one reason (that is remotely plausible)- in light of your theory that doctors will absolutely without a doubt,migrate to where the pay is better-, why the HSE would have any problems filling positions when we 'pay' better than most other places in the world?
    What applies to Irish doctors (your theory about why they migrate) that doesn't apply to other doctors from abroad?


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  • #792
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Can you give one reason (that is remotely plausible)- in light of your theory that doctors will absolutely without a doubt,migrate to where the pay is better-, why the HSE would have any problems filling positions when we 'pay' better than most other places in the world?
    What applies to Irish doctors (your theory about why they migrate) that doesn't apply to other doctors from abroad?
    Happyman - I don't have a theory. What I have is what is happening in the real world now.

    In Ireland today - doctors and consultants get paid 'X' (a high number). Even when paid this high number, so many of our doctors emigrate that we have to hire a whole THIRD of our doctors from abroad.

    These foreign doctors come here in large part for the money ('X'). They could also work in the UK or many other countries across the world.

    Sinn Fein is proposing to cut 'X' by over a third.

    If we can barely keep and hire from abroad enough doctors when paying 'X', logic dictates that - unless money is of absolutely no interest to Irish OR foreign doctors - we will lose some doctors from our system.

    I would suggest that your idea that Irish AND foreign doctors will have their pay cut by over a third and just stay in Ireland/come here to work anyway is the theory that requires some elaborate explanation.

    (I'll copy this back over to the main Sinn Fein health policy thread)


  • #793
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Can you give one reason (that is remotely plausible)- in light of your theory that doctors will absolutely without a doubt,migrate to where the pay is better-, why the HSE would have any problems filling positions when we 'pay' better than most other places in the world?
    What applies to Irish doctors (your theory about why they migrate) that doesn't apply to other doctors from abroad?
    Happyman - I don't have a theory. What I have is what is happening in the real world now.

    In Ireland today - doctors and consultants get paid 'X' (a high number). Even when paid this high number, so many of our doctors emigrate that we have to hire a whole THIRD of our doctors from abroad.

    These foreign doctors come here in large part for the money ('X'). They could also work in the UK or many other countries across the world.


    Sinn Fein is proposing to cut 'X' by over a third.

    If we can barely keep and hire from abroad enough doctors when paying 'X', logic dictates that - unless money is of absolutely no interest to Irish OR foreign doctors - we will lose some doctors from our system.

    I would suggest that your idea that Irish AND foreign doctors will have their pay cut by over a third and just stay in Ireland/come here to work anyway is the theory that requires some elaborate explanation.


  • #794
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Happyman - I don't have a theory. What I have is what is happening in the real world now.

    In Ireland today - doctors and consultants get paid 'X' (a high number). Even when paid this high number, so many of our doctors emigrate
    FOr once and for all, are you saying doctors are lying when they say money is not their main reason for leaving?
    Yes or No.

    These foreign doctors come here in large part for the money ('X'). They could also work in the UK or many other countries across the world.
    ]
    Also not a 'given'. Doctors claim that it is good to travel gain experience.

    Sinn Fein is proposing to cut 'X' by over a third.

    If we can barely keep and hire from abroad enough doctors when paying 'X', logic dictates that - unless money is of absolutely no interest to Irish OR foreign doctors - we will lose some doctors from our system.
    Which doesn't stack up with your theory (or non theory, whatever) that doctors from lower paid countries will always migrate to higher paid ones.


    (I'll copy this back over to the main Sinn Fein health policy thread)
    Don't bother, it will get knocked down by the tumbleweed you predicted. ;)


  • #795
    frankbrett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭frankbrett


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Happyman - I don't have a theory. What I have is what is happening in the real world now.

    In Ireland today - doctors and consultants get paid 'X' (a high number). Even when paid this high number, so many of our doctors emigrate that we have to hire a whole THIRD of our doctors from abroad.

    These foreign doctors come here in large part for the money ('X'). They could also work in the UK or many other countries across the world.


    Sinn Fein is proposing to cut 'X' by over a third.

    If we can barely keep and hire from abroad enough doctors when paying 'X', logic dictates that - unless money is of absolutely no interest to Irish OR foreign doctors - we will lose some doctors from our system.

    I would suggest that your idea that Irish AND foreign doctors will have their pay cut by over a third and just stay in Ireland/come here to work anyway is the theory that requires some elaborate explanation.

    Not just a pay cut. The fact that doctors earning €100k would face a higher marginal tax and reduced pension relief would further incentivise them to leave.


  • #796
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #797
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Do you know what "representative" means? Or were you even aware it was the STANDARD of doctor that the image was meant to represent?
    You think he posted the image because Dr Nick Riviera is Latino or because he's a **** doctor?

    Stop embarrassing yourself.


  • #798
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    The "English speaking market" is an ancient ploy by the medics to claim they deserve higher salaries. As if nobody else knows or can learn English...


  • #799
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Geuze wrote: »
    We would
    standardise the relief at which tax back can be
    claimed, beginning with a reduction to 28% in
    2015. This raises €235 million.
    This would mean the end of pensions for private sector workers - no-one is going to pay tax on money put into a pension, that is locked in for decades, that can be stolen at any time by a government and will be taxed again when it's taken out.

    It's a crazy proposal, and could only be proposed by a group of people who have never worked in the real world.


  • #800
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    hmmm wrote: »
    This would mean the end of pensions for private sector workers - no-one is going to pay tax on money put into a pension, that is locked in for decades, that can be stolen at any time by a government and will be taxed again when it's taken out.
    Yeah because the NPRF we currently have is ring fenced isn't it?


  • #801
    frankbrett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭frankbrett


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Yeah because the NPRF we currently have is ring fenced isn't it?

    The NPRF doesn't exist any more. It is now the Irish Strategic Investment Fund


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  • #802
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    frankbrett wrote: »
    The NPRF doesn't exist any more. It is now the Irish Strategic Investment Fund
    "Doesn't exist anymore" being the important part.


  • #803
    Icemancometh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 873 ✭✭✭Icemancometh


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The "English speaking market" is an ancient ploy by the medics to claim they deserve higher salaries. As if nobody else knows or can learn English...

    There's nothing stopping any medics in the EU coming here and applying for work, all the training is recognised, and the HSE can't discriminate between EU citizens. Other than Romanians, we aren't seeing all that many people coming from EU countries though.


  • #804
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Yeah because the NPRF we currently have is ring fenced isn't it?

    You clearly are suffering comprehension difficulties given the post you replied to is nothing to do with the NPRF - which doesn't actually exist anymore anyway.

    But, carry on - it's most amusing.


  • #805
    frankbrett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭frankbrett


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    "Doesn't exist anymore" being the important part.

    The funds still exist but the mandate has changed as they are to be diverted towards the domestic economy


  • #806
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #807
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    What about subtract and multiply, or are we sticking with vague insults here?

    Percentages.

    Plus the lack of cohesion in their health policy - for example when is a €100k salary cap not a salary cap? When it's in the SF health policy and it's a €150k salary cap.

    And then there's the bowl of spaghetti thst is there wealth tax proposal! That may or may not be based on the French model.


  • #808
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Dog of Tears wrote: »
    You clearly are suffering comprehension difficulties given the post you replied to is nothing to do with the NPRF - which doesn't actually exist anymore anyway.

    But, carry on - it's most amusing.

    Mod: The thing about Cafes is that they are supposed to be relaxed and friendly. Maybe from now on you can phrase things a bit more nicely? Theres a kernel of a good debate here re: the NPRF, maybe focus on that instead of taking swipes at other posters. Consider this an in thread warning to play nice, your previous comment to "stop embarrassing yourself" is not condusive to debate either.


  • #809
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,353 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    I just figured out that the shinner plan is to pay consultants the average industrial wage and donate the rest to the cult, sorry, party.


  • #810
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Yeah because the NPRF we currently have is ring fenced isn't it?
    What has the NPRF got to do with private sector pensions.


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  • #811
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    hmmm wrote: »
    What has the NPRF got to do with private sector pensions.
    Oh, you didn't bother to read the post I was replying to:
    that can be stolen at any time by a government
    Just pointing out that we've already had a pension pot stolen by our government.


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