Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

1…2223252728…51

Comments

  • #722
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Grand.

    And the SF policy on consultants is?

    Now, it was shown here the other day, so don't be shy.

    To cut their pay & deliver an NHS.

    As I said it doesn't add up.


  • #723
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    NewCorkLad wrote: »
    maccored wrote: »
    Dog of Tears wrote: »


    High pay doesnt equal good service everyone here agrees with that, but do you think that slashing pay will somehow lead to better service?

    Well, it doesn't have to be 'slashed', brought in line with the EU average would be a start, freeing up money to fund the staffing of the numerous newly built wards and hospital wings that lie empty at the moment.


  • #724
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    maccored wrote: »
    more insults - is that all the anti shinner element have? weak insults?
    What insult?


  • #725
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    To cut their pay & deliver an NHS.

    As I said it doesn't add up.

    It'll take more than cutting consultants pay to sort out the HSE, however it is one area that should be addressed.


  • #726
    NewCorkLad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭NewCorkLad


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Grand.

    And the SF policy on consultants is?

    Now, it was shown here the other day, so don't be shy.

    The HSE is struggling with current pay scales to fill doctor posts do honestly think that cutting their pay by 30% will help improve our health care system?


  • Advertisement
  • #727
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    NewCorkLad wrote: »
    maccored wrote: »

    Well, it doesn't have to be 'slashed', brought in line with the EU average would be a start, freeing up money to fund the staffing of the numerous newly built wards and hospital wings that lie empty at the moment.

    Staffing those newly built wards with what ?


  • #728
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    NewCorkLad wrote: »
    The HSE is struggling with current pay scales to fill doctor posts do honestly think that cutting their pay by 30% will help improve our health care system?

    So, you're for the FFail 'throw heaps of money at it' approach?
    That's why the HSE is in the state it's in.


  • #729
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    It'll take more than cutting consultants pay to sort out the HSE, however it is one area that should be addressed.

    Indeed & the Shinner policy doc outlined other areas where savings will be made..

    However all added together it is only a modest improvement over current funding.

    If they can think the can deliver an NHS with very little extra cash, frankly they are deluded.


  • #730
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    So, you're for the FFail 'throw heaps of money at it' approach?
    That's why the HSE is in the state it's in.

    Try considering the question Lee.

    Shinnernomics promises consultants a pay cut & higher work load.

    Do you genuinely think this will improve health outcomes?


  • #731
    NewCorkLad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭NewCorkLad


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    So, you're for the FFail 'throw heaps of money at it' approach?
    That's why the HSE is in the state it's in.

    No Im of the view that doctors are an essential part of any health care system without which it would not operate. Slashing their pay will not help fix the problems in our health care.


  • Advertisement
  • #732
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Try considering the question Lee.

    Shinnernomics promises consultants a pay cut & higher work load.

    Do you genuinely think this will improve health outcomes?

    Unfortunately for the Shinnerbots, they are in the uncomfortable position of having to continue to argue an approach that has been demonstrably shown to be complete nonsense until Party Headquarter catches up with the rest of us and swiftly revises their bumpkin proposals.


  • #733
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Try considering the question Lee.

    Shinnernomics promises consultants a pay cut & higher work load.

    Do you genuinely think this will improve health outcomes?

    Who knows?
    Do you think the current model of renumeration is working for the benefit of patients or consultants?

    Do consultants in the UK get to use the public service for their private clinics like they do here?


  • #734
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Dog of Tears wrote: »
    Unfortunately for the Shinnerbots, they are in the uncomfortable position of having to continue to argue an approach that has been demonstrably shown to be complete nonsense until Party Headquarter catches up with the rest of us and swiftly revises their bumpkin proposals.

    Yes, you continue with the personal attacks.
    You contribute nothing else as far as I can see.


  • #735
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Who knows?
    Do you think the current model of renumeration is working for the benefit of patients or consultants?

    Strange point.
    all renumeration is for the benefit of the one being renumerated!

    The consultants union have an iron grip on things though, their new contract system in 2013 was modest but fought tooth & nail.

    Can you or one off the others advise how SF are going to break that union when previous governments couldn't?

    I can't imagine the Shinners wanting a fight with their fellow socialists in the TU movement?
    Do consultants in the UK get to use the public service for their private clinics like they do here?

    Some do, most don't.
    As you know every NHS trust is largely self governing.

    And getting backto the money.
    Shinner health policy declares savings of around €600m vs current funding. (Mostly pay & drugs reform.... Of dubious calculation).

    However this leaves public health at a funding level of around 9.3% of GDP.

    European norms are around 11%.

    How can SF deliver an NHS without the cash?


  • #736
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    The idea that SF can break the unions to effect real change in any public service sector is utter nonsense.


  • #737
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,227 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    WheatenBriar wrote: »
    Why can't we as a state incorporate into law a contract for medical students whereby we make 5 years service after graduation compulsory here?
    We could compensate by making their education entirely free
    Money well spent I would think ensuring a constant supply of junior doctors
    We should also be putting in place measures to encourage them to stay voluntarily after that
    Nothing is important as health for our citizens

    Actually after hearing the survey results from NUIG about medical students proposing to leave I think something will have to be done.
    Otherwsie why bother with 6 odd medical schools if we are only creating docotrs for some other countries' health services.

    As some posters (sf posters especially) have mentioned here, doctors particularly consultants are very well paid in this country.
    This leads to two questions.
    Why do junior doctors then leave if they can get such high salaries here some day down the road ?
    Has it anything to do with the closed shop operated in some disciplines where very few junior doctors will ever make it into these high paying consultant roles ?
    Are the junior doctors working conditions so hard they don't want to put up with it ?

    I don't agree with the often quoted sf idea that no one should earn above x amount.
    That is ridiculous.
    But I do agree that we need to cut the top rate of pay of consultants.
    There is no reason they should earn so much when our health system is a shambles and the rates of pay are so much lower in other comparable countries.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The idea that SF can break the unions to effect real change in any public service sector is utter nonsense.

    We had a chance when the troika were in town to finally face down the public sector unions and representative bodies.
    Of coruse we didn't have any politicans with the balls needed.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #738
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Who knows?
    Do you think the current model of renumeration is working for the benefit of patients or consultants?

    Do consultants in the UK get to use the public service for their private clinics like they do here?
    LeeMajors wrote: »
    Yes, you continue with the personal attacks.
    You contribute nothing else as far as I can see.


    Seriously, can you answer the question.

    Can you explain exactly how it works that cutting the pay of doctors will lead to a better health service, less than 12 months after the HSE has raised the pay of doctors because it could not attract suitable recruits?

    Now, there is an answer to this and it is not deflection or accusing people of personal attacks. That answer also isn't "tell us why it won't work" or that "they pay less in Norway", because the pay rises proposed by the HSE suggest otherwise and they also pay less in Africa.

    I am genuinely interested to know if anyone on the SF side has actually thought this through beyond a populist soundbite.


  • #739
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Godge wrote: »
    I am genuinely interested to know if anyone on the SF side has actually thought this through beyond a populist soundbite.

    They say they can deliver unlimited, free healthcare for all people, with a very small saving from overheads.

    I can say with certainty they haven't thought it through.


  • #740
    frankbrett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭frankbrett


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    They say they can deliver unlimited, free healthcare for all people, with a very small saving from overheads.

    I can say with certainty they haven't thought it through.

    They also say they can run Irish Water and pass the MCT without domestic charges. Not sure they've thought that one through either.


  • #741
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    frankbrett wrote: »
    They also say they can run Irish Water and pass the MCT without domestic charges. Not sure they've thought that one through either.

    And they're going to abolish Property taxes and reduce USC

    These guys are either geniuses or imbeciles.



    You, the public, must decide.


  • Advertisement
  • #742
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    This is a total misrepresentation. Links were posted demonstrating the difficulty the HSE had in hiring consultants following a pay-cut, and eventually pay had to be restored. A link was posted demonstrating that hundreds of doctors were being imported from Pakistan to plug gaps. A link was posted showing that one third of our doctors are trained an come here from abroad, presumably for the high salaries that are paid.

    On top of that, basic economic logic tells us that when you pay less for something, supply goes down. I even posted a graph to that effect.

    None - none - of this was refuted in a meaningful way.

    The fact that you can still misrepresent the thread is such a fashion suggests you are not interested in the content of the thread at all, and were merely concerned with rubbishing it - as you explicitly stated many times.

    Without getting into the same argument, you where shown plenty of stuff to back up my argument, includiing surveys of doctors attitudes and comparisons with similarly sized countries who pay their doctors much less than here and who do not have an emigration problem.

    You may disagree with that information, but you cannot say I was basing my answers on trenchant bot style postings.


  • #743
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,436 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    frankbrett wrote: »
    They also say they can run Irish Water and pass the MCT without domestic charges. Not sure they've thought that one through either.

    I don't support SF, but I just wish to point out that they plan large income tax increases on hundreds of thousands of workers, as well as abolishing the LPT and water charges.

    In my case, I would pay approx 1400 extra income tax pa, but save 225 on LPT and no water charges.

    So I would end up paying more tax, as expected with a socialist party.

    That would help fund their planned extra spending.


  • #744
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Geuze wrote: »
    I don't support SF, but I just wish to point out that they plan large income tax increases on hundreds of thousands of workers, as well as abolishing the LPT and water charges.

    In my case, I would pay approx 1400 extra income tax pa, but save 225 on LPT and no water charges.

    So I would end up paying more tax, as expected with a socialist party.

    That would help fund their planned extra spending.

    That assumes that you would continue to pay 70-80% of your marginal income tax rather than work a four-day week or take a lower-paying job with less stress.


  • #745
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You may disagree with that information, but you cannot say I was basing my answers on trenchant bot style postings.
    The evidence is there for anyone who cares to look. I won't drag this thread further off topic to satisfy my ego.


  • #746
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    In fairness, neither are you. I backed up what I was saying and refused to accept the OP's premise of a certain 'mass exodus and system collapse' based on the surveys and comparisons I was presenting. You, he and anyone else is entirely within their rights to argue against that, but the Bot accusation is very unfair.


  • #747
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #748
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Godge wrote: »
    That assumes that you would continue to pay 70-80% of your marginal income tax rather than work a four-day week or take a lower-paying job with less stress.
    Yes, we are back at the Laffer curve again. As you charge people punitive taxes on their marginal earnings, they will either figure out ways of dodging the taxes outright, or they will cut back on the amount they work and enjoy more free time instead.


  • #749
    frankbrett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,323 ✭✭✭frankbrett


    Geuze wrote: »
    I don't support SF, but I just wish to point out that they plan large income tax increases on hundreds of thousands of workers, as well as abolishing the LPT and water charges.

    In my case, I would pay approx 1400 extra income tax pa, but save 225 on LPT and no water charges.

    So I would end up paying more tax, as expected with a socialist party.

    That would help fund their planned extra spending.

    True but they haven't explained how it is possible to abolish water charges but continue to keep it off the books. Their pre-budget submission sees the cost of abolishing water charges as only €300m. This supposes that the only cost is the removal of domestic charges. I struggle to see how it passes the MCT on commercial charges alone so I suspect they will have to find more savings from elsewhere.


  • #750
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    frankbrett wrote: »
    True but they haven't explained how it is possible to abolish water charges but continue to keep it off the books. Their pre-budget submission sees the cost of abolishing water charges as only €300m. This supposes that the only cost is the removal of domestic charges. I struggle to see how it passes the MCT on commercial charges alone so I suspect they will have to find more savings from elsewhere.


    The total cost, including the capital investment for 2016, of abolishing water charges, is in the region of €900m.


  • Advertisement
  • #751
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Geuze wrote: »
    I don't support SF, but I just wish to point out that they plan large income tax increases on hundreds of thousands of workers, as well as abolishing the LPT and water charges.

    In my case, I would pay approx 1400 extra income tax pa, but save 225 on LPT and no water charges.

    So I would end up paying more tax, as expected with a socialist party.

    That would help fund their planned extra spending.

    Possibly, however their policy document doesn't mention it.

    As well as an NHS, there is also commitments to restore public expenditure to peak levels, spend €13bn on a jobs programme, mimic Norway's energy policy ... Etc...

    In a nutshell, one way or another we would all be paying a lot more tax.


Advertisement