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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #692
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    maccored wrote: »
    yeah, the high salaries they are currently being paid are really giving us a top notch service. :rolleyes:
    You are absolutely right on that. I'm not arguing about that at all.

    My point is that paying substantially less ---> fewer doctors willing to work in Ireland ---> even worse standards in the health system.


  • #693
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    maccored wrote: »
    yeah, the high salaries they are currently being paid are really giving us a top notch service. :rolleyes:
    You're argueing a fallacy, you seem to think if something is bad it can't be made worse.


  • #694
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Basic economics suggests that supply is lower at lower prices. Here's a graph to help you visualise what will happen to the supply of doctors if Sinn Fein cuts salaries so dramatically.
    Unfortunately for your graph, we already have hard factual evidence that countries that pay their doctors far less than we do have far better healthcare.
    Whatever the problem is with the HSE, paying doctors more than nearly anywhere else on earth is a **** solution.


  • #695
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Unfortunately for your graph, we already have hard factual evidence that countries that pay their doctors far less than we do have far better healthcare.
    Whatever the problem is with the HSE, paying doctors more than nearly anywhere else on earth is a **** solution.
    Clearly, as I've said, foreign doctors want to be paid a premium to work here, otherwise we would be flooded by EU and other doctors as you point out.

    Why this premium is so large, I'm not sure, but the only thing we can say for certain is that Sinn Fein cutting pay will make Ireland an even less desirable place to work.


  • #696
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Thankfully the very same free movement policy allows us to replace anybody who leaves the country who feel they aren't being suitably "valued" (i.e. salaried) by the state.
    It's funny how every right winger on here will moan about public service pay 'til the cows come home but think doctors are magically exempt from this.


    Oh wow, you really want to check out my posting history on public service pay.


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  • #697
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Basic economics suggests that supply is lower at lower prices. Here's a graph to help you visualise what will happen to the supply of doctors if Sinn Fein cuts salaries so dramatically.

    amy.gif

    You are forgetting that normal economic rules don't apply in the shinnerbot world.


  • #698
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Godge wrote: »
    You are forgetting that normal economic rules don't apply in the shinnerbot world.
    And useful comments don't exist in the antishinner world.


  • #699
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Godge wrote: »
    Oh wow, you really want to check out my posting history on public service pay.
    I'm not really obsessive enough to go trawling through other people's old posts.


  • #700
    Dexter Thankful Prince
    Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭ Dexter Thankful Prince


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    It was incredibly straight forward. These pay negotiations were rumbling on since before the crash and hence got shelved. I though the FF reference would have been a giveaway but perhaps obvious is still too subtle.

    Why edit the rest of the post out?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    True. So then what was the point of your post? With respect to whether they have at this stage reversed the cuts, I don't know.

    I posted an article which said the Government admitted that due to the pay cuts they'd made, they were struggling to fill positions. As a result, they decided to reverse the cuts.

    Surely extraordinarily relevant to the topic at hand. A non-theoretical example of the issues at hand    .

    Is this not at least a useful example of what people have hypothesised actually being true?


  • #701
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,788 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You're argueing a fallacy, you seem to think if something is bad it can't be made worse.

    you seem to think if something is ****e then you pay them more money.


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  • #702
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    maccored wrote: »
    you seem to think if something is ****e then you pay them more money.
    I don't think there's any suggestion that he thinks that. :confused:

    I think his point is that, although our health service is not great now, it could get a whole lot worse if we can't recruit or retain doctors and consultants when Sinn Fein slashes their salaries.


  • #703
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    maccored wrote: »
    you seem to think if something is ****e then you pay them more money.

    Didn't notice anyone suggesting that - Strawman.

    Even if they did, makes far more sense than the proposition that cutting consultant pay will result in a higher provision of service.


  • #704
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,788 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Dog of Tears wrote: »
    Didn't notice anyone suggesting that - Strawman.

    Even if they did, makes far more sense than the proposition that cutting consultant pay will result in a higher provision of service.

    the argument is based on the fact that you cant pay them less. therefore, you are happy paying them a lot of money for a ****e system. its not rocket science to make that deduction.


  • #705
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    maccored wrote: »
    the argument is based on the fact that you cant pay them less. therefore, you are happy paying them a lot of money for a ****e system. its not rocket science to make that deduction.
    Can you explain what you mean, please?

    The point is that Sinn Fein proposes to severely cut pay for doctors and consultants, meaning the number of doctors and consultants willing to work in Ireland will decrease.

    Fewer doctors and consultants will mean longer queues, less treatment, more mistakes etc. etc. under Sinn Fein's proposals.

    It's a worry for me as I've a young family and my parents are getting on a bit.


  • #706
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    maccored wrote: »
    the argument is based on the fact that you cant pay them less. therefore, you are happy paying them a lot of money for a ****e system. its not rocket science to make that deduction.

    The consultants provide a specific service. For the poor organisation of the health system, only someone completely deluded would blame the consultants.

    There are serious organisational issues in the health system. Addressing the processes in that system does not involving just chopping people salaries because it's a politically palatable thing to do which will not actually fix the core problems which are organisational and not surgery related. Possibly if you fixed the system, you could then get people to come and work in it for less than they want at the moment.


  • #707
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    maccored wrote: »
    the argument is based on the fact that you cant pay them less. therefore, you are happy paying them a lot of money for a ****e system. its not rocket science to make that deduction.

    What deduction is that then?

    That slashing pay will improve the service?


  • #708
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #709
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,788 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Dog of Tears wrote: »
    What deduction is that then?

    That slashing pay will improve the service?

    nope, that paying more for a ****e service isnt a great idea. my god, does everything have to be hand fed?


  • #710
    NewCorkLad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭NewCorkLad


    maccored wrote: »
    nope, that paying more for a ****e service isnt a great idea. my god, does everything have to be hand fed?

    But do you think that slashing the pay of highly trained doctors will somehow help improve the service?


  • #711
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    maccored wrote: »
    nope, that paying more for a ****e service isnt a great idea. my god, does everything have to be hand fed?

    Yeah with that kind of reasoning it does , how does slashing the pay of a performing sector improve the output of another underperforming sector ?


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  • #712
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    How much are consultants paid in northern Ireland and in the rest of the UK?
    Take a guess.

    Also, do consultants there get to use the public system infrastructure and staff for running their own private business?


  • #713
    Dog of Tears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dog of Tears


    maccored wrote: »
    nope, that paying more for a ****e service isnt a great idea. my god, does everything have to be hand fed?


    It would seem so - so let's try this again.

    Do you understand what this thread is about?

    SF want to slash the pay of consultant doctors.

    Do you think this will make the service better or worse.







    Take your time now.


  • #714
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    How much are consultants paid in northern Ireland and in the rest of the UK?
    Take a guess.

    Simplistic stuff , the doctors pay is not the problem in our health service. At this stage it is probably irreparable and we will inevitable move to a Private Health care system.

    Slashing consultants pay is just vote seeking but doing little for the overall problems.


  • #715
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    Dog of Tears wrote: »
    maccored wrote: »
    nope, that paying more for a ****e service isnt a great idea. my god, does everything have to be hand fed?


    It would seem so - so let's try this again.

    Do you understand what this thread is about?

    SF want to slash the pay of consultant doctors.

    Do you think this will make the service better or worse.







    Take your time now.


    How much do you think the same consultants earn in the UK? 40 miles from Dublin?


  • #716
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    marienbad wrote: »
    Simplistic stuff , the doctors pay is not the problem in our health service. At this stage it is probably irreparable and we will inevitable move to a Private Health care system.

    Slashing consultants pay is just vote seeking but doing little for the overall problems.

    But it may be one of the many problems.

    FG have increased the amount of senior 'managers' in the HSE by 12% since they came to power.
    600+ on trollies, a record even FFail couldn't reach.

    Too many chief's seems to be the problem.


  • #717
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    But it may be one of the many problems.

    FG have increased the amount of senior 'managers' in the HSE by 12% since they came to power.
    600+ on trollies, a record even FFail couldn't reach.

    Too many chief's seems to be the problem.

    And that will be solved by slashing doctors pay ? How ?


  • #718
    maccored
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,788 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Dog of Tears wrote: »
    maccored wrote: »
    nope, that paying more for a ****e service isnt a great idea. my god, does everything have to be hand fed?


    It would seem so - so let's try this again.

    Do you understand what this thread is about?

    SF want to slash the pay of consultant doctors.

    Do you think this will make the service better or worse.







    Take your time now.

    why do I need to take my time? I question if high pay=good service. it needs major reform.


  • #719
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    LeeMajors wrote: »
    How much are consultants paid in northern Ireland and in the rest of the UK?
    Take a guess.

    €105k to €142k plus some extras is their scale

    Still won't make a scratch on funding an Irish NHS though.

    The numbers don't add up.


  • #720
    LeeMajors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭LeeMajors


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    €105k to €142k plus some extras is their scale

    Still won't make a scratch on funding an Irish NHS though.

    The numbers don't add up.

    Grand.

    And the SF policy on consultants is?

    Now, it was shown here the other day, so don't be shy.


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  • #721
    NewCorkLad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 962 ✭✭✭NewCorkLad


    maccored wrote: »
    Dog of Tears wrote: »
    maccored wrote: »
    nope, that paying more for a ****e service isnt a great idea. my god, does everything have to be hand fed?

    why do I need to take my time? I question if high pay=good service. it needs major reform.


    High pay doesnt equal good service everyone here agrees with that, but do you think that slashing pay will somehow lead to better service?


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