Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

NewCorkLad · 12-03-2015 06:07PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So you didn't read the article I linked to then.
But keep guessing instead if you prefer.

I did read the article did you

The Health Service Executive (HSE) said yesterday that there is an ongoing vacancy rate of 100 to 120 junior doctors posts in hospitals and the shortage of some grades is particularly felt in emergency departments.

The knock-on effect for patients is that hospitals are drawing up contingency plans which could see clinics and other services reduced in the coming weeks in order to ensure control is maintained over standards of safety as the doctors switch jobs as part of their six-month training schedules

The above statements dont make it sound like recruitment is going "fine".

Iwasfrozen · 12-03-2015 06:17PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nope, the title of the thread is suggesting a "looming disaster" which has never been proven. Now, if the title was "SF's proposed health policy" you'd have a case.
As reality is different to what you are contesting you don't have one.

The writer of this thread is not proposing a policy, his statement is a statement of opinion. SF are (claiming) to state fact. They aspire to lead the country and implement these policies.

Do you see this difference? The latter needs evidence to support it if controversial, the former does not.

WheatenBriar · 12-03-2015 06:19PM

Why can't we as a state incorporate into law a contract for medical students whereby we make 5 years service after graduation compulsory here?
We could compensate by making their education entirely free
Money well spent I would think ensuring a constant supply of junior doctors
We should also be putting in place measures to encourage them to stay voluntarily after that
Nothing is important as health for our citizens

Dan_Solo · 12-03-2015 06:22PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The article is 6 months old. I can't recall FF having any power in that time.

If you'd care to read posts properly I never said they were.

NewCorkLad · 12-03-2015 06:24PM

WheatenBriar wrote: »

Why can't we as a state incorporate into law a contract for medical students whereby we make 5 years service after graduation compulsory here?
We could compensate by making their education entirely free
Money well spent I would think ensuring a constant supply of junior doctors
We should also be putting in place measures to encourage them to stay voluntarily after that
Nothing is important as health for our citizens

I would agree with this in principle but where would it stop, should everyone who goes through our college system be forced to stay to offset the contribution made to them.

12-03-2015 06:24PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If you'd care to read posts properly I never said they were.

True. So then what was the point of your post? With respect to whether they have at this stage reversed the cuts, I don't know.

I posted an article which said the Government admitted that due to the pay cuts they'd made, they were struggling to fill positions. As a result, they decided to reverse the cuts.

Surely extraordinarily relevant to the topic at hand. A non-theoretical example of the issues at hand.

Iwasfrozen · 12-03-2015 06:26PM

WheatenBriar wrote: »

Why can't we as a state incorporate into law a contract for medical students whereby we make 5 years service after graduation compulsory here?
We could compensate by making their education entirely free
Money well spent I would think ensuring a constant supply of junior doctors
We should also be putting in place measures to encourage them to stay voluntarily after that
Nothing is important as health for our citizens

Do we do this for all graduates though? Not fair to single out doctors. Besides they do leave they'll never return if they have to face prosecution.

A better solution is to set up a government loan system so graduates can pay back the costs of their education. Similar to the Australian system.

Calina · 12-03-2015 06:31PM

WheatenBriar wrote: »

Why can't we as a state incorporate into law a contract for medical students whereby we make 5 years service after graduation compulsory here?

We could try but it would be one good reason for anyone even remotely bright to apply to study medicine anywhere else except Ireland. A condition like this is onerous on an individual and could be considered as a form of indentured labour. What would be better would be to make it attractive to work here and perhaps see people choose to stay here rather than be forced to do so.

WheatenBriar · 12-03-2015 06:31PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do we do this for all graduates though? Not fair to single out doctors. Besides they do leave they'll never return if they have to face prosecution.

A better solution is to set up a government loan system so graduates can pay back the costs of their education. Similar to the Australian system.

I think it should be done for doctors and nurses

Calina wrote: »

We could try but it would be one good reason for anyone even remotely bright to apply to study medicine anywhere else except Ireland. A condition like this is onerous on an individual and could be considered as a form of indentured labour. What would be better would be to make it attractive to work here and perhaps see people choose to stay here rather than be forced to do so.

It wouldn't be indentured labour though if we paid them fairly and of course gave decent hours,the latter more possible when numbers increase

12-03-2015 06:34PM

Instead of "Compulsory" service, an effective Student Loan service would be suitable.

The rates could be preferable to those in employment within the State.

However, this introduces the idea of charging for third level.

Calina · 12-03-2015 06:35PM

WheatenBriar wrote: »

It wouldn't be indentured labour though if we paid them fairly and of course gave decent hours,the latter more possible when numbers increase

It would very much be indentured labour if they were not allowed to leave.

RecordStraight · 12-03-2015 06:52PM

maccored wrote: »

in a health service were just today a work colleague ended up waiting for 4 hours for a pre-arranged appointment in a hospital, just to be told to come back in three months, i dont think the high salaries are doing much good tbh.

That's a fair point, but do you think your friend's wait would have been longer or shorter if there were fewer doctors and consultants around?

Nobody is claiming the service is great right now - the question I'm raising is what will happen if Sinn Fein carries through its policy of slashing salaries for doctors and consultants.

Iwasfrozen · 12-03-2015 07:02PM

WheatenBriar wrote: »

I think it should be done for doctors and nurses

Well I disagree, I think it's unfair to single out one profession. Besides all you're doing is making sure the ones that do leave can never return home for fear of prosecution.

I better idea is a student loan system so graduates from all fields can pay the costs of their own education.

Godge · 12-03-2015 07:08PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Have they actually implemented it? A 30% pay increase? This is the one that was negotiated ages ago and shelved when FF sold off the country?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0107/670992-consultants-pay/

No, the pay increase is the one coming in this year because the HSE can't recruit consultants at the low rate that SF want to cut further.

Over to a SF economic expert to explain how this completely discredited policy has any chance of retaining and recruiting consultants. Actually, are there any SF economic experts out there? We will see.

WheatenBriar wrote: »

Why can't we as a state incorporate into law a contract for medical students whereby we make 5 years service after graduation compulsory here?
We could compensate by making their education entirely free
Money well spent I would think ensuring a constant supply of junior doctors
We should also be putting in place measures to encourage them to stay voluntarily after that
Nothing is important as health for our citizens

Nice idea for a fascist or communist state. Unfortunately, in our democracy, EU provisions on the free movement of labour would prevent such a policy.

Dan_Solo · 12-03-2015 08:13PM

Godge wrote: »

Nice idea for a fascist or communist state. Unfortunately, in our democracy, EU provisions on the free movement of labour would prevent such a policy.

Thankfully the very same free movement policy allows us to replace anybody who leaves the country who feel they aren't being suitably "valued" (i.e. salaried) by the state.
It's funny how every right winger on here will moan about public service pay 'til the cows come home but think doctors are magically exempt from this.

Dan_Solo · 12-03-2015 08:16PM

Deleted User wrote: »

True. So then what was the point of your post?

It was incredibly straight forward. These pay negotiations were rumbling on since before the crash and hence got shelved. I though the FF reference would have been a giveaway but perhaps obvious is still too subtle.

Dan_Solo · 12-03-2015 08:22PM

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-hospital-consultants-among-highest-paid-in-the-world-1.1850847

Irish specialists earned an average €171,000 last year, higher than in any other OECD country except New Zealand and Luxembourg, according to the study. When the figures are corrected for local purchasing power, the pay of Irish specialists is the highest in the OECD apart from Luxembourg and almost twice as high as in the UK.

So if you halved Irish consultant salaries they would still have the same lifestyle as a UK consultant.
And puhlease, don't even attempt to pretend HSE care is in the same ballpark as the NHS, no matter how much moaning you hear from British people about it.
Not overpaid at all, oh no.

RecordStraight · 12-03-2015 08:31PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Thankfully the very same free movement policy allows us to replace anybody who leaves the country who feel they aren't being suitably "valued" (i.e. salaried) by the state.
It's funny how every right winger on here will moan about public service pay 'til the cows come home but think doctors are magically exempt from this.

This is true, but if Ireland is so attractive to European doctors at current salary levels, why are we importing hundreds of doctors from Pakistan?

And if we slash salaries (which, once again, I'm not claiming are not high) presumably we will have to be hiring cheaper doctors who - for some reason - can't command market rate salaries.

RecordStraight · 12-03-2015 08:32PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-hospital-consultants-among-highest-paid-in-the-world-1.1850847

So if you halved Irish consultant salaries they would still have the same lifestyle as a UK consultant.
And puhlease, don't even attempt to pretend HSE care is in the same ballpark as the NHS, no matter how much moaning you hear from British people about it.
Not overpaid at all, oh no.

Why aren't all these European doctors coming to work here then, and why are we having to hire from Pakistan - a practice that introduces major cultural challenges into an already weak system? It appears that foreign doctors require a huge premium to come to work in Ireland.

And what will happen when salaries are slashed?

Dan_Solo · 12-03-2015 08:36PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

Why aren't all these European doctors coming to work here then, and why are we having to hire from Pakistan - a practice that introduces major cultural challenges into an already weak system? It appears that foreign doctors require a huge premium to come to work in Ireland.

What's with the "foreign doctors" thing again? Do you have any actual evidence these doctors aren't up to standard?
Now this may come as a surprise, but there's more than one doctor in Ireland of Pakistani extraction. Are you claiming they aren't compatible with Irish culture, whatever the hell that is?

RecordStraight · 12-03-2015 08:55PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

What's with the "foreign doctors" thing again? Do you have any actual evidence these doctors aren't up to standard?

I'm not an expert on the standards of medical schools, so I don't know if these doctors from Pakistan are trained to Irish standards. But my point is rather that if Sinn Fein slashes the pay of these doctors, it will be harder to find ones willing to work here so we will inevitably find ourselves having to take doctors who are not able to command the big money for whatever reason.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Now this may come as a surprise, but there's more than one doctor in Ireland of Pakistani extraction.

Yes, a third of our doctors are hired from abroad, presumably coming for the money as I've said. Hardly for the weather, anyway.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Are you claiming they aren't compatible with Irish culture, whatever the hell that is?

Are you suggesting there are no important differences between Irish culture and Pakistani culture, around the issue of women for example?

Dan_Solo · 12-03-2015 09:04PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

Are you suggesting there are no important differences between Irish culture and Pakistani culture, around the issue of women for example?

Are you claiming Pakistani doctors in Ireland are unfit for duty because of their cultural background? You're having a laugh right? This is a country that slaughters pregnant women with sepsis in the name of Catholicism?!?!

RecordStraight · 12-03-2015 09:05PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Are you claiming Pakistani doctors in Ireland are unfit for duty because of their cultural background? You're having a laugh right? This is a country that slaughters pregnant women with sepsis in the name of Catholicism?!?!

Perhaps you should read my question again?

You might also want to address the question about what will happen to the standard of doctor we will be able to hire at much lower wages, and explain why we are not already awash with EU doctors seeing as our salaries are so high.

Cheers.

Dan_Solo · 12-03-2015 09:06PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

I'm not an expert on the standards of medical schools, so I don't know if these doctors from Pakistan are trained to Irish standards.

So will we agree to defer to the HSE's decision that they are of sufficient standard to work here, or want to get a few more sly digs in at "foreign doctors"?
Makes you wonder if in the US they say the same thing about the Irish medical wunderkinds going over there with their questionable standards!

Dan_Solo · 12-03-2015 09:07PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

Perhaps you should read my question again?

You might also want to address the question about what will happen to the standard of doctor we will be able to hire at much lower wages, and explain why we are not already awash with EU doctors seeing as our salaries are so high.

Cheers.

That is a ridiculous argument. If this is the case every doctor in the history of earth would have moved to New Zealand or Luxembourg.

RecordStraight · 12-03-2015 09:10PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So will we agree to defer to the HSE's decision that they are of sufficient standard to work here, or want to get a few more sly digs in at "foreign doctors"?

I suppose from the HSE's perspective, they have a decision to make about the standard of doctor they can hire versus not having enough doctors at all. Again, I'm no authority on training practices in Pakistan (or here), but I'm working on the assumption that the Pakistani (or other) doctor you can get for 130k isn't as good as the doctor you get for 200k.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Makes you wonder if in the US they say the same thing about the Irish medical wunderkinds going over there with their questionable standards!

It does!

RecordStraight · 12-03-2015 09:10PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That is a ridiculous argument. If this is the case every doctor in the history of earth would have moved to New Zealand or Luxembourg.

You won't mind if you point out you didn't actually address the questions (again).

maccored · 12-03-2015 09:11PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

That's a fair point, but do you think your friend's wait would have been longer or shorter if there were fewer doctors and consultants around?

Nobody is claiming the service is great right now - the question I'm raising is what will happen if Sinn Fein carries through its policy of slashing salaries for doctors and consultants.

how can you say there'd be fewer doctors or consultants around? Did you nip into the future to have a peek? Im saying that the present health system is ****, yet we are paying consultants high fees. **** service and high fees is still crap. I'd prefer **** service and **** fees to be honest.

RecordStraight · 12-03-2015 09:13PM

maccored wrote: »

how can you say there'd be fewer doctors or consultants around? Did you nip into the future to have a peek? Im saying that the present health system is ****, yet we are paying consultants high fees. **** service and high fees is still crap. I'd prefer **** service and **** fees to be honest.

Basic economics suggests that supply is lower at lower prices. Here's a graph to help you visualise what will happen to the supply of doctors if Sinn Fein cuts salaries so dramatically.

maccored · 12-03-2015 09:15PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

Basic economics suggests that supply is lower at lower prices. Here's a graph to help you visualise what will happen to the supply of doctors if Sinn Fein cuts salaries so dramatically.

yeah, the high salaries they are currently being paid are really giving us a top notch service. :rolleyes:

Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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