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Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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Comments

  • #302
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Bertie Ahern- Minister For Finance - Accounts Clerk. Ahern has claimed or it has been claimed by others in circulated biographies that he was educated at University College Dublin and the London School of Economics but neither university has any records that show Ahern was ever one of their students.
    Ruairi Quinn - Minister For Finance - Qualified as an Architect.
    Charlie McGreevy- Qualified Accountant.
    Brian Cowen- Minister for Finance - Qualified in Law.
    Brian Lenihan - Minister For Finance - Law degree and Senior counsel
    Michael Noonan - Minister for Finance - School Teacher
    Pearse Doherty - proposed minister for finance - Qualified with degree in...nothing.


  • #303
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Michael Noonan - Minister for Finance - School Teacher

    Degree in Economics from UCD....


  • #304
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #305
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    Degree in Economics from UCD....
    Ouch, I could feel that one impacting from here.


  • #306
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,296 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #307
    daUbiq
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭daUbiq


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    Degree in Economics from UCD....

    You would imagine he has some idea what he is doing... so, why does he need so many advisors then?

    Isn't he a bit old though?


  • #308
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    awec wrote: »
    It won't matter anyway because they won't get elected to lead a government.

    Once they actually have to stand and roll out their policies and have them scrutinised in an election their numbers will crumble. I suspect FF and FG and probably even Labour will have a right go at them because it won't take much to discredit their policies.
    I actually wouldn't mind them getting a turn in government - it might diminish the messianic zeal of their supporters if they realise that they don't have a magic cure for all our problems.

    But I'm genuinely worried about them (further) fouling up the health service, and damaging inward investment with crazy anti-business tax policies.


  • #309
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,247 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    daUbiq wrote: »
    Isn't he a bit old though?

    The minister has been around alright.

    He will be retiring next year at 71.

    Not sure if you are insinuating he lacks competence though?

    The guy has done a good job & has shown Doherty to be an empty shirt these past 4 years.

    With Ireland leading the EZ in jobs & GDP growth, one imagines its uncomfortable for Pearse to stand opposed to that.


  • #310
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    daUbiq wrote: »
    You would imagine he has some idea what he is doing... so, why does he need so many advisors then?
    You think someone running a country shouldn't surround himself with experienced technial advisors? We don't want to go back to the FF days of Ministers turning up to random economists houses at night to ask for a bit of advice when they felt out of their depth.

    If anything, our Ministers could use a few more advisors (note, not political hacks).


  • #311
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Pearse Doherty - proposed minister for finance - Qualified with degree in...nothing.

    oh dear...signs of a bit of elitism emerging now.

    You really don't understand how government works if you believe a Minister is required to have a university level education in his/her ministry. Noonan for example has had many ministeries, is he incapable because he has no qualifications?


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  • #312
    daUbiq
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭daUbiq


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    The minister has been around alright.

    He will be retiring next year at 71.

    Not sure if you are insinuating he lacks competence though?

    The guy has done a good job & has shown Doherty to be an empty shirt these past 4 years.

    With Ireland leading the EZ in jobs & GDP growth, one imagines its uncomfortable for Pearse to stand opposed to that.

    I don't believe we've ever had competent government in Ireland. Especially where FG and FF are concerned. I don't believe the propaganda around unemployment figures or GDP either.


  • #313
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    oh dear...signs of a bit of elitism emerging now.
    Wanting the best qualified people in the top jobs is, I suppose, a form of elitism.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You really don't understand how government works if you believe a Minister is required to have a university level education in his/her ministry. Noonan for example has had many ministeries, is he incapable because he has no qualifications?
    No qualifications? Noonan has a degree in Economics from a university.


  • #314
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    if they realise that they don't have a magic cure for all our problems.

    Go on...show us one, just one supporter on here who has claimed that? :rolleyes:


  • #315
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    daUbiq wrote: »
    I don't believe we've ever had competent government in Ireland. Especially where FG and FF are concerned. I don't believe the propaganda around unemployment figures or GDP either.
    We are getting into conspiracy theory territory here if you think the CSO are playing politics.

    Do you have any thoughts on the the subject of the thread? Do you think that any doctors will quit our health service (I'm particularly thinking of the third of them that come from abroad for the money) when Sinn Fein halves their salaries?


  • #316
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    Wanting the best qualified people in the top jobs is, I suppose, a form of elitism.

    No qualifications? Noonan has a degree in Economics from a university.
    Yes, he may have, but has he one in the field of Justice, or Health, which he served as Minister.

    Stating that somebody is only competent because they have a degree when it is patently obvious that having a 'degree' is not and never has been required, is 'elitist'. And more of the hysterical anti SF agenda driven tosh you see on here.


  • #317
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #318
    daUbiq
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭daUbiq


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    We are getting into conspiracy theory territory here if you think the CSO are playing politics.

    Do you have any thoughts on the the subject of the thread? Do you think that any doctors will quit our health service (I'm particularly thinking of the third of them that come from abroad for the money) when Sinn Fein halves their salaries?

    Sinn Fein won't be in a position to do that.. the chance of them being the main party in government are extremely slim so this whole thread has been set up to mock Sinn Fein, hasn't it?

    Is the TC a member of FG or FF?

    Anyone can start a thread like this..

    How about:

    Fianna Gael - HSE and Varadakar push legislation through forcing people to get health insurance because they don't have the wherewithal or nous to fix health service...

    This is happening now, whilst we all know Sinn Fein won't be cutting consultants pay any time soon.


  • #319
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Yes, he may have, but has he one in the field of Justice, or Health, which he served as Minister.
    I would suggest that a degree in economics would be very useful in health or any other ministry where most of your decisions involve budgeting and cost/benefit analyses.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Stating that somebody is only competent because they have a degree when it is patently obvious that having a 'degree' is not and never has been required, is 'elitist'. And more of the hysterical anti SF agenda driven tosh you see on here.
    I agree that just because you don't have a degree, does not mean you are stupid - but having a degree means that you have at least demonstrated some basic level of competence in learning and applying knowledge.

    The fact that Doherty hasn't even managed that is a bit worrying if SF are planning on handing him the keys to the economy. His main skill seems to be what Brian Cowen's used to be - talking in an angry voice and promising the electorate loads of goodies at no cost to them.


  • #320
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    daUbiq wrote: »
    Sinn Fein won't be in a position to do that.. the chance of them being the main party in government are extremely slim so this whole thread has been set up to mock Sinn Fein, hasn't it?
    Stop trying to divert the thread and answer the question. It's SF's stated policy that is being debated, and we've had no end of SF supporters shouting about the "traitors" in FG/Lab who didn't implement elements of their policy.

    If you think elements of SF's policy is pure fantasy, man up and say so.


  • #321
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    daUbiq wrote: »
    Sinn Fein won't be in a position to do that.. the chance of them being the main party in government are extremely slim so this whole thread has been set up to mock Sinn Fein, hasn't it?
    The thread was set up to look into a particular piece of Sinn Fein's policy platform, and get away from general pro/anti SF rhetoric.
    daUbiq wrote: »
    Is the TC a member of FG or FF?
    The TC? :confused:
    daUbiq wrote: »
    Anyone can start a thread like this..

    How about:

    Fianna Gael - HSE and Varadakar push legislation through forcing people to get health insurance because they don't have the wherewithal or nous to fix health service...

    This is happening now, whilst we all know Sinn Fein won't be cutting consultants pay any time soon.
    I suggest that you start that thread. It will be a good way of exploring the positives and negatives of the policy, same as this one.


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  • #322
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    I would suggest that a degree in economics would be very useful in health or any other ministry where most of your decisions involve budgeting and cost/benefit analyses.
    'It's aisy carried', as my granny would say.
    Yes it is, but it isn't a stipulation for obtaining office. Full stop. And again I recommend you study how government works and the realtionship between a Minister and his/her civil servants and advisors.
    I agree that just because you don't have a degree, does not mean you are stupid - but having a degree means that you have at least demonstrated some basic level of competence in learning and applying knowledge.

    The fact that Doherty hasn't even managed that is a bit worrying if SF are planning on handing him the keys to the economy. His main skill seems to be what Brian Cowen's used to be - talking in an angry voice and promising the electorate loads of goodies at no cost to them.
    Look, you got caught out being condescending and derogatory, just admit it and move on.


  • #323
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    It really is cult-like how the vast majority of SF supporters can not admit a single failing of the party they support. It's blatantly obvious that this policy cannot be implemented without gutting the health service, but I haven't seen a single supporter admit this.

    How about this. "Yes the policy as written will not be implemented, of course not, but it is sending out a message that SF will try and cut back on unacceptably high and unwarranted public sector salaries." See, how hard would that be type?


  • #324
    daUbiq
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭daUbiq


    I've no interest in Sinn Feins policies, they won't be implementing them but I do believe this thread has been created simply to mock Sinn Fein.

    As for my diverting the thread... not interested in doing that as the whole thing is pointless anyway.. see above.

    Our health service is already a disaster, thanks to Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael. It can't get much worse...

    RecordStraight, TC = topic creator.

    Good luck with the non-judgmental and non-biased discussion.


  • #325
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    'It's aisy carried', as my granny would say.
    Yes it is, but it isn't a stipulation for obtaining office. Full stop. And again I recommend you study how government works and the realtionship between a Minister and his/her civil servants and advisors.
    What a condescending and patronising reply.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Look, you got caught out being condescending and derogatory, just admit it and move on.
    I think you will find that you are the condescending one. I merely pointed out that Pearse Doherty didn't even manage a college degree, which is worrying (to me, at least) for someone looking to run our economy. Angry bluster will take you only so far.


  • #326
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    daUbiq wrote: »
    Our health service is already a disaster, thanks to Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael. It can't get much worse...

    It can. We may not have the best health service in the world, but we are far, far away from having the worst.


  • #327
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    daUbiq wrote: »
    Our health service is already a disaster, thanks to Fianna Fail and Fianna Gael. It can't get much worse...
    Of course it can. What do you image a health system with no consultants will be like?

    I wonder is it because a lot of SF supporters are younger that they don't care about the destruction this will cause.


  • #328
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    hmmm wrote: »
    Of course it can. What do you image a health system with no consultants will be like?
    I imagine waiting lists will get much shorter, seeing as there would be nobody to see.


  • #329
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,202 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    daUbiq wrote: »
    I've no interest in Sinn Feins policies, they won't be implementing them but I do believe this thread has been created simply to mock Sinn Fein.
    Of course it's mocking them, the policy is ridiculous. Not one person has put up any sort of decent argument why it should be defended.


  • #330
    RecordStraight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭RecordStraight


    hmmm wrote: »
    Of course it's mocking them, the policy is ridiculous.
    Well I'd rather we stuck to a more sober examination of the policy and its consequences. Every party has some stupid policies in my opinion, Sinn Fein are not unique in that regard.

    What annoys me is that you can't even have a proper discussion about a particular policy without the full-on Sinn Fein automatic attack agents flying in and trying to shut down the discussion.


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  • #331
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RecordStraight wrote: »
    What a condescending and patronising reply.

    I think you will find that you are the condescending one. I merely pointed out that Pearse Doherty didn't even manage a college degree, which is worrying (to me, at least) for someone looking to run our economy. Angry bluster will take you only so far.

    You are saying only people with a university qualification are capable of running a ministry, which is counter to what has been and is required to do that job, as evidenced the world over in government.
    Your use of phrases like 'didn't even manage' is derogatory and condescending.
    Man up, you got caught exposing the real agenda for starting the thread in the first place as has been pointed out to you before. For instance, making the claim that no SF supporter would be man enough to come on this thread and debate with you...how did that go :rolleyes:
    How are you getting on with your 'study' of the Norwegian experience, have you 'managed' to assimilate the info and draw a conclusion for us yet?

    Two can play the condescending game.


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