Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

maccored · 09-03-2015 11:28PM

RecordStraight wrote: »

You don't think that halving the pay of doctors will result in doctors leaving Ireland then?

Or you just don't care if the system collapses? We know that any criticism of Sinn Fein is taboo to certain people, but political parties need to be held to account.

(as an aside, I think we begin to see how seriously Sinn Feiners are willing to engage in serious debate about issues of policy)

have you noticed the health service we have at the minute? all the people on trolleys? being treated for heart problems in a chair? you talk of being held to account - who's being held to account for the piece of **** health system we have? Are well paid management and consultants and the lack of frontline staff and lack of beds due to cuts a good thing in your book? I really dont get this absolute crap about the health system would fall to bits if you didnt pay some people a lot of money. its fallen to bits as it is.

Godge wrote:

Another high-quality response from a SF supporter.

I've learned a lot from your own high quality responses Godge.

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 12:10AM

maccored wrote: »

have you noticed the health service we have at the minute? all the people on trolleys? being treated for heart problems in a chair?

Ok, so our healthcare system right now is overstretched in a big way.

What happens when Sinn Fein cuts the pay of consultants and doctors by a half or more? What happens when doctors (one third of whom come from abroad already) move abroad to earn the market rate?

Ace2007 · 10-03-2015 12:17AM

RecordStraight wrote: »

Ok, so our healthcare system right now is overstretched in a big way.

What happens when Sinn Fein cuts the pay of consultants and doctors by a half or more? What happens when doctors (one third of whom come from abroad already) move abroad to earn the market rate?

Being honest, if this wasn't sure a serious issue, i would say let SF get to power, let them f**k up the country and see what all the pro SF's think then when their children are left to pay 60% tax, paying for third level college and have an even sh!tter health care system due to the cock up's of the SF government policies, or else they would see the SF don't actually do what they say.

SF are in government in the north - and there are rates on the houses - have they got rid of them - of course not, all talk.

Wasn't so long ago that SF were saying they had a credible budget for the government, but they openly admit that parts of their budget hadn't been independently verified - Why would they ever publish a budget without getting it fully verified - maybe it's because there are holes in it? we take 2m from here and 6m from there and then we put 22m in here, but where does the other 14m come from - no one ever knows.

One last point, let's say do manage to get the number and are the majority party, they will have to make compromises to get another party to go into power with them - What are people going to say, if one of the compromises is to keep Irish water, or keep the property tax - we'd soon see who are the can't pay won't pay parade and who are pro SF (don't care about anything bar SF).

Iwasfrozen · 10-03-2015 12:20AM

maccored wrote: »

have you noticed the health service we have at the minute? all the people on trolleys? being treated for heart problems in a chair? you talk of being held to account - who's being held to account for the piece of **** health system we have? Are well paid management and consultants and the lack of frontline staff and lack of beds due to cuts a good thing in your book? I really dont get this absolute crap about the health system would fall to bits if you didnt pay some people a lot of money. its fallen to bits as it is.

Ah yes the, "something is bad so it can't get any worse" fallacy. :rolleyes:

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 10:12AM

Apologies...we had a power cut here yesterday evening, for a moment I thought there had been a 'mass exodus' from the ESB but I calmed down.

Has anybody shown how 'better pay, better working conditions and better weather' which have ALWAYS been available elsewhere have brought our health service to it's knees before?
Has anyone admitted yet that the ongoing crisis in our health service has actually been caused by restrictive practices, greedy self interests, a top heavy HSE and generally abysmal organisation?
And have those in denial of that realised that FF/FG and even Lab never had and never will have the appetite to do anything substantial about that problem, because inherently, they care little about the consumers of that service and seem to be permanently the whipping boys and girls of the elites of the PS.

Timberrrrrrrr · 10-03-2015 10:24AM

Looks like more accusations of abuse and covering up will be made against the shinners tonight on BBC spotlight programme.

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 10:31AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Looks like more accusations of abuse and covering up will be made against the shinners tonight on BBC spotlight programme.

against 'The Shinners' or against 'members of the Shinners'. Wouldn't want you to be getting hysterical again. :rolleyes:

hmmm · 10-03-2015 10:31AM

Look, the reason SF supporters are not getting worked up about this is because the smarter ones know that SF have no intention of implementing their loopier policies, these policies are purely soundbites. The strategy in the Republic will be the same as in the North - get into power. If they have to promise free ponys for all the gullible eejits who will vote for them, so be it. Once you're in power, you complain about how some big bad foreigner (in the North, the UK government, in the Republic, the EU) will stop them implementing their free pony plan, at which point these plans will be replaced and we'll end up with four years of a carbon copy of a FF style government.

Quin_Dub · 10-03-2015 10:33AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

Has anybody shown how 'better pay, better working conditions and better weather' which have ALWAYS been available elsewhere have brought our health service to it's knees before?

There's a tipping point and cutting salaries by 50% is most definitely a tipping point. There is a certain inertia involved in staying put , it's easier to stay than to go and people that leave an existing job to move abroad etc. usually go due to frustration - Not getting that promotion they feel they deserve , working conditions getting you down etc.. Somebody coming in and announcing that from date X your salary is cut to 100k (or that if you are below that level that you can never go above it) is without question, going to drive huge frustration and will cause a large number of people to leave - not instantly but steadily over the following months and years..

Happyman42 wrote: »

Has anyone admitted yet that the ongoing crisis in our health service has actually been caused by restrictive practices, greedy self interests, a top heavy HSE and generally abysmal organisation?

No disagreement there , massive restructuring is required , Top to bottom - but that's not what we're talking about though , we're talking about capping Salaries and the impact that will have on the Health services.

Happyman42 wrote: »

And have those in denial of that realised that FF/FG and even Lab never had and never will have the appetite to do anything substantial about that problem, because inherently, they care little about the consumers of that service and seem to be permanently the whipping boys and girls of the elites of the PS.

Do you really think that SF will be anymore willing to tackle to PS Unions than anyone else??? All they have said is that they will target the High earners , not a word about how they'll tackle the awful practices and over-staffing/wrong staffing issues in the middle and lower earning areas , which as it always is is where the overwhelming bulk of savings and efficiencies are to be had.

It's typical SF populist bollocks to be honest - "tax the rich" blah blah blah....Cutting Salaries will NOT solve anything , it's lipstick on a pig...

aliveandkicking · 10-03-2015 10:45AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Looks like more accusations of abuse and covering up will be made against the shinners tonight on BBC spotlight programme.

No need for this kind of stuff in this thread. There is a general Sinn Fein thread for this stuff. This thread is specifically about one of Sinn Fein's ridiculously stupid economic policies. Anything that dilutes this and prevents the discussion of policies like this in favour of the usual stuff about the IRA etc is doing the thread a disservice.

For the SF people defending this policy, would you not be better off putting your hands up and say actually this doesn't make any sense and obviously hasn't been thought through properly then communicate with your party leaders to look at it again. Even the most ardent SF supporter must be able to see this policy is just well stupid. You would be doing your party more good to ask them to rethink it rather than blindly defending it just because it's a SF policy. That kind of blind allegiance isn't good for democracy.

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 10:46AM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

There's a tipping point and cutting salaries by 50% is most definitely a tipping point. There is a certain inertia involved in staying put , it's easier to stay than to go and people that leave an existing job to move abroad etc. usually go due to frustration - Not getting that promotion they feel they deserve , working conditions getting you down etc.. Somebody coming in and announcing that from date X your salary is cut to 100k (or that if you are below that level that you can never go above it) is without question, going to drive huge frustration and will cause a large number of people to leave - not instantly but steadily over the following months and years..

No disagreement there , massive restructuring is required , Top to bottom - but that's not what we're talking about though , we're talking about capping Salaries and the impact that will have on the Health services.

Do you really think that SF will be anymore willing to tackle to PS Unions than anyone else??? All they have said is that they will target the High earners , not a word about how they'll tackle the awful practices and over-staffing/wrong staffing issues in the middle and lower earning areas , which as it always is is where the overwhelming bulk of savings and efficiencies are to be had.

It's typical SF populist bollocks to be honest - "tax the rich" blah blah blah....Cutting Salaries will NOT solve anything , it's lipstick on a pig...

Well, I have been listening to SF in committees and they do seem to be the only ones actually calling people to account when they come before committee. Padraig McLochlainn and Mary-Lou being particularly effective in that regard and within fairly stringent limiting powers, it has to be said too.
I know a FG TD who sits on a number of committees and privately, they have said that SF ruffle feathers on committee all the time, because they constantly go beyond what has become the norm and agreed cozy protocols. They are not prepared to play the game that FF/FG have played. So I would be hopeful that SF would make people accountable, if in power.

And please; 'Tax The Rich'? The less well off have taken the brunt of austerity, if you can't see that then you have taken a side, and I hope your 'side' get demolished come the next election. I really do. We have a long way to go to be even a partially equal society, SF may not take us all the way there, but a bit of the way will do me.

Permabear · 10-03-2015 10:46AM

This post has been deleted.

BoJack Horseman · 10-03-2015 10:49AM

The idea of an Irish NHS isn't stupid in its own right.

Its just the large tax increases required to fund it is the irksome part.

hmmm · 10-03-2015 10:52AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

We have a long way to go to be even a partially equal society, SF may not take us all the way there, but a bit of the way will do me.

Why should a medical consultant, who has spent 15 years studying and working extremely hard, be "equal" in terms of their income as someone who has done nothing except look to the state for handouts their whole life?

Not only is this policy unfair in human terms, it's stupid because countries are competing to try and get high skilled and talented individuals like consultants (and CEOs etc.) to choose their society and not anothers.

Timberrrrrrrr · 10-03-2015 10:54AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

against 'The Shinners' or against 'members of the Shinners'. Wouldn't want you to be getting hysterical again. :rolleyes:

Against members of the Sinn Fein party.

Care to show where i got hysterical?

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 10:55AM

aliveandkicking wrote: »

No need for this kind of stuff in this thread. There is a general Sinn Fein thread for this stuff. This thread is specifically about one of Sinn Fein's ridiculously stupid economic policies.

Agreed.

I started this thread to look at one aspect of Sinn Fein's proposals and to explore the consequences. General Sinn Fein bashing doesn't really further the discussion, not least because this allows Sinn Fein off the hook.

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 10:57AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

If you raise the wages of lower paid workers as a result, then you approach a more equitable society.

If I thought for a minute that this was about some childish jealous grudge against higher paid elites then I would not give it the time of day.
But I do think that there is an appetite to make root and branch reforms of how our country is run and to make it a proper functioning republic (and all that actually means)
Reform and raise all boats as a result.
I am not a SF member but if they are genuine about the above I could see myself becoming one.

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 10:58AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I am not a SF member but if they are genuine about the above I could see myself becoming one.

It's most curious that you spend 18 hours a day supporting them on Boards.ie.

BoJack Horseman · 10-03-2015 10:59AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

If you raise the wages of lower paid workers as a result, then you approach a more equitable society.

Indeed.

By making everyone as poor as each other irrespective of merit or value, prosperity follows.

From the soviet union, to north Korea, the examples are everywhere

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 11:04AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Against members of the Sinn Fein party.

Care to show where i got hysterical?

Oh, probably the fact that you used 'The Shinners' (which suggests the entire party) and not 'some members of SF'.

As in 'Catholics abused my daughter' and not 'a person who happens to be Catholic abused my daughter' = Cathoics are not inherently abusive.

It would just show you are reasonable is all and not somebody with an agenda.

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 11:07AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

It would just show you are reasonable is all and not somebody with an agenda.

At least we can all trust that you have no agenda...

I asked you up thread for any evidence of your belief that doctors would not leave the Irish health system if their salaries were halved - have you come up with anything?

Also you made some claims about the Norwegian health system, and I asked you for evidence of those. Have you found any since, or was that just rubbish that you made up?

Quin_Dub · 10-03-2015 11:10AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

If you raise the wages of lower paid workers as a result, then you approach a more equitable society.

If I thought for a minute that this was about some childish jealous grudge against higher paid elites then I would not give it the time of day.
But I do think that there is an appetite to make root and branch reforms of how our country is run and to make it a proper functioning republic (and all that actually means)
Reform and raise all boats as a result.
I am not a SF member but if they are genuine about the above I could see myself becoming one.

Taking money off one person and giving it to another isn't equality though....It's theft..

If you want to improve the lot of the low paid, increasing their wages at the expense of higher paid staff is not a viable long term solution.

Capping Public salaries , taxing the hell out of higher Private sector salaries might give the economy a short term "dead cat bounce" but it can't/won't last.. Where would the incentive to work harder , to get better come from???

The best way to improve the lifestyle of the lower paid is not to simply give them more money , it's to teach them how to earn more money.

Simply increasing the minimum wage doesn't achieve anything really , it just moves the same bar up a bit..

Higher minimum wage = Higher costs = Increased day to day expenses for people = Demand for increased Minimum wage... And so on and so on ad infinitum.

Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs not jobs for life... They are not meant to fund a family , they are meant to be a way for people to get experience etc. to help them move forward..

That's the thing we need to fix for a more equal society , Better Schools , Training etc. etc. - Not taking money off the very people that have worked hard to gain experience and better themselves to get into roles that earn higher salaries in the 1st place...

The Socialist/Populist approach is just pandering to peoples jealousy and anger... It rewards mediocrity - Why should people strive to improve themselves when any gains are going to be taken off them and given to everyone else that's sitting around making less effort???

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 11:12AM

RecordStraight wrote: »

It's most curious that you spend 18 hours a day supporting them on Boards.ie.

It may look curious, I am aware of that, but my motivation is genuinely against the knee jerking hysteria about what is now just another political party, after all.
Most of the stuff posted against SF on here is motivated by a deep hatred of republicanism (which I am) and not against political ideologies. It is very juvenile at times, and to be honest I could just as easily accuse some regulars here of being closet FG and FF members too if I could be arsed.

aliveandkicking · 10-03-2015 11:15AM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The idea of an Irish NHS isn't stupid in its own right.

Its just the large tax increases required to fund it is the irksome part.

An Irish NHS is a legitimate policy for any left wing party to pursue. The issue witb SF though is on one hand they propose an Irish NHS and the associated cost of implementing it yet on the other hand they propose to abolish the USC, abolish the property tax and abolish water charges. In addition they also want to restore the public sector pay cuts on the majority of PS employees and restore cuts to welfare. The numbers just don't add up. There aren't enough "rich" people to pay for all this.

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 11:18AM

RecordStraight wrote: »

At least we can all trust that you have no agenda...

I asked you up thread for any evidence of your belief that doctors would not leave the Irish health system if their salaries were halved - have you come up with anything?

I don't have any, as I told you, it is an opinion based on the fact that 'better wages elsewhere, better working conditions and better weather' have always been available and haven't as yet colapsed the system.
And you have none that they will leave in a 'mass exodus' capable of collapsing the health service either. Which I think most would call 'evens'

Also you made some claims about the Norwegian health system, and I asked you for evidence of those. Have you found any since, or was that just rubbish that you made up?

Funny, I thought somebody making the claims you have been making would have done some research (silly me) before making your claims of a 'mass exodus'.
Google: What are Norwegian doctors paid in comparison to Irish doctors, here, I did it for you.
https://www.google.ie/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1EODB_enIE574IE574&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=what%20are%20norwegian%20doctors%20paid%20in%20comparison%20to%20irish%20doctors

RecordStraight · 10-03-2015 11:19AM

aliveandkicking wrote: »

An Irish NHS is a legitimate policy for any left wing party to pursue. The issue witb SF though is on one hand they propose an Irish NHS and the associated cost of implementing it yet on the other hand they propose to abolish the USC, abolish the property tax and abolish water charges. In addition they also want to restore the public sector pay cuts on the majority of PS employees and restore cuts to welfare. The numbers just don't add up. There aren't enough "rich" people to pay for all this.

Fair point. And of course the problem with increasing taxes on 'rich people' is that these are often the most mobile and skilled people who can easily move to another jurisdiction.

Sinn Fein need to acquaint themselves with the Laffer curve. Although if their Finance Spokesman, Pearse Doherty, had bothered to get a college degree, he'd probably have heard of it already.

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 11:24AM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Taking money off one person and giving it to another isn't equality though....It's theft..

If you want to improve the lot of the low paid, increasing their wages at the expense of higher paid staff is not a viable long term solution.

Capping Public salaries , taxing the hell out of higher Private sector salaries might give the economy a short term "dead cat bounce" but it can't/won't last.. Where would the incentive to work harder , to get better come from???

The best way to improve the lifestyle of the lower paid is not to simply give them more money , it's to teach them how to earn more money.

Simply increasing the minimum wage doesn't achieve anything really , it just moves the same bar up a bit..

Higher minimum wage = Higher costs = Increased day to day expenses for people = Demand for increased Minimum wage... And so on and so on ad infinitum.

Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs not jobs for life... They are not meant to fund a family , they are meant to be a way for people to get experience etc. to help them move forward..

That's the thing we need to fix for a more equal society , Better Schools , Training etc. etc. - Not taking money off the very people that have worked hard to gain experience and better themselves to get into roles that earn higher salaries in the 1st place...

The Socialist/Populist approach is just pandering to peoples jealousy and anger... It rewards mediocrity - Why should people strive to improve themselves when any gains are going to be taken off them and given to everyone else that's sitting around making less effort???

I wouldn't know where to begin with that ^ tbh. It is so badly researched and elitist it would fry my brain. If you really believe that people in the PS are paid commensurate with how hard they work then you are lost, really.

aliveandkicking · 10-03-2015 11:27AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

It may look curious, I am aware of that, but my motivation is genuinely against the knee jerking hysteria about what is now just another political party, after all.
Most of the stuff posted against SF on here is motivated by a deep hatred of republicanism (which I am) and not against political ideologies. It is very juvenile at times, and to be honest I could just as easily accuse some regulars here of being closet FG and FF members too if I could be arsed.

But this thread is focusing on economic policy not on republicanism. All that stuff is for a different thread. I believe a party who are legitimately attempting to become the largest party in the country should have their economic policies scrutinised. Just because you're a republican shouldn't mean you atomatically must defend a silly economic policy just because the party that proposed it is republican.

Quin_Dub · 10-03-2015 11:33AM

Happyman42 wrote: »

I wouldn't know where to begin with that ^ tbh. It is so badly researched and elitist it would fry my brain. If you really believe that people in the PS are paid commensurate with how hard they work then you are lost, really.

No.. I don't think that they are paid commensurate to their efforts for the most part...

We absolutely do not get value for money in the Public sector, but an arbitrary cap on salaries is not the solution..

Performance reviews , the ability to fire people when they are under performing etc. are much much better ways of fixing the problem...

Incentivise them to work better/harder/more effectively.

Telling them that no matter how good they might be they can only ever earn X amount as a maximum is not an incentive..

The public sector is a badly run shambles that costs far too much for for what we get in return..

Fundamental root and branch reforms are required but people should be able see the ability to get rewarded for their efforts in the longer term.

Happyman42 · 10-03-2015 11:35AM

RecordStraight wrote: »

Fair point. And of course the problem with increasing taxes on 'rich people' is that these are often the most mobile and skilled people who can easily move to another jurisdiction.

Sinn Fein need to acquaint themselves with the Laffer curve. Although if their Finance Spokesman, Pearse Doherty, had bothered to get a college degree, he'd probably have heard of it already.

Bertie Ahern- Minister For Finance - Accounts Clerk. Ahern has claimed or it has been claimed by others in circulated biographies that he was educated at University College Dublin and the London School of Economics but neither university has any records that show Ahern was ever one of their students.
Ruairi Quinn - Minister For Finance - Qualified as an Architect.
Charlie McGreevy- Qualified Accountant.
Brian Cowen- Minister for Finance - Qualified in Law.
Brian Lenihan - Minister For Finance - Law degree and Senior counsel
Michael Noonan - Minister for Finance - School Teacher

Sinn Fein - looming health service disaster?

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