Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

J C · 07-03-2015 04:23PM

indioblack wrote: »

So why did the Lord make the serpent crafty?

Satan has free will ... and that free will includes the freedom to be crafty ... just like any of us can also be crafty (and a lot worse), using our free will.

indioblack · 07-03-2015 04:26PM

J C wrote: »

The responsibility for our choices, actions and their consequesnces lie with us alone ... we cannot blame the state or God for giving us freedom.

The "state" is a limited agency - the Christian God is not.

indioblack · 07-03-2015 04:29PM

J C wrote: »

Satan has free will ... and that free will includes the freedom to be crafty ... just like any of us can also be crafty (and a lot worse), using our free will.

But God knew the serpent was crafty - he created him.
Indirect responsibility.

J C · 07-03-2015 04:30PM

indioblack wrote: »

The "state" is a limited agency - the Christian God is not.

The point is that the state isn't responsible at all for the misuse by people of the freedom granted them by it ... ditto with God.

J C · 07-03-2015 04:34PM

indioblack wrote: »

But God knew the serpent was crafty - he created him.
Indirect responsibility.

God gave freedom ... the upside is the freedom to do good ... the downside is the freedom to do evil.

... the alternative is to have mindless deterministic robots without the freedom to hate ... and more importantly, to love.:)

indioblack · 07-03-2015 04:40PM

J C wrote: »

The point is that the state isn't responsible at all for the misuse by people of the freedom granted them by it ... ditto with God.

God doesn't take responsibility for the circumstances he allows to evolve.
The biblical God cannot be compared to an earthly state.

indioblack · 07-03-2015 04:46PM

J C wrote: »

God gave freedom ... the upside is the freedom to do good ... the downside is the freedom to do evil.

... the alternative is to have mindless deterministic robots without the freedom to hate ... and more importantly, to love.:)

So God not only gives people the freedom to make these choices but allows the opportunities to exist. And whatever he may say to people, he leaves the door open for human frailty - he knows that human weakness will exist because he created the parameters.
Your response is a good one, though.

J C · 07-03-2015 04:49PM

indioblack wrote: »

So God not only gives people the freedom to make these choices but allows the opportunities to exist. And whatever he may say to people, he leaves the door open for human frailty - he knows that human weakness will exist because he created the parameters.
Your response is a good one, though.

Human frailty or weakness is no excuse in a court of law for commiting a crime ... and its no excuse for commiting sin either.

J C · 07-03-2015 04:51PM

indioblack wrote: »

God doesn't take responsibility for the circumstances he allows to evolve.
The biblical God cannot be compared to an earthly state.

Because God has granted free will He cannot continually 'meddle' with the actions of people ... otherwise free will wouldn't actually exist.

Mr_Muffin · 07-03-2015 04:58PM

Is there any proof that God exists?

tommy2bad · 07-03-2015 05:02PM

indioblack wrote: »

So a proportion of all existence only exists because of this fall?

Interesting point, though you could argue that the 'evil'was inherent in the original creation and thetherefore must have come from God. Not sure if our breaking it counts as a contribution to creation but the fact that it could be broken in the first place, isn't conductive to the notion of god being perfect and creating a perfect creation.
Best call it what it is, a myth. One that sets the scene for what follows.

Harika · 07-03-2015 10:43PM

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

Is there any proof that God exists?

Nope.

antiskeptic · 07-03-2015 11:53PM

Harika wrote: »

Nope.

Which means choice is enabled. You can't deny a proof.

indioblack · 08-03-2015 09:01AM

J C wrote: »

Human frailty or weakness is no excuse in a court of law for commiting a crime ... and its no excuse for commiting sin either.

To follow the analogy - if the court of law is also the agency responsible for the conditions within which the crime is committed, then an argument can be made for mitigating circumstances.

indioblack · 08-03-2015 09:09AM

J C wrote: »

Because God has granted free will He cannot continually 'meddle' with the actions of people ... otherwise free will wouldn't actually exist.

Some Christians believe that he does interact with people.
The bible has instances of it.
God gave man free will - with limits - if that is not contradictory.
In the story man transgressed - so. ok, they were punished.
Why let everything change from then until now?
Were you the first offender - was I?

indioblack · 08-03-2015 09:15AM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Interesting point, though you could argue that the 'evil'was inherent in the original creation and thetherefore must have come from God. Not sure if our breaking it counts as a contribution to creation but the fact that it could be broken in the first place, isn't conductive to the notion of god being perfect and creating a perfect creation.
Best call it what it is, a myth. One that sets the scene for what follows.

Agreed.
Wish it could have been a clearer myth for slow-coaches like myself.

tommy2bad · 08-03-2015 11:41AM

indioblack wrote: »

Agreed.
Wish it could have been a clearer myth for slow-coaches like myself.

The thing about faith is it's not supposed to be a fixed object. It's supposed to change, develop and grow. The first set of ideas are not what your support to finish with.
I suppose their should be a set of basics that tell us exactly what to believe, we could just get this faith off the peg as it were, signed up and never have to think about it again. Instead we get a load of contradictions, vague principals and a feel good notion that it will all pan out over time.

You could just take the 10 commandments and the creed and plough on. Might be the best way, ignore the arguments about whether God approves of gay marriage, fish on Fridays or innumerable little stuff religions seem to think He obsesses over.

indioblack · 08-03-2015 12:52PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

The thing about faith is it's not supposed to be a fixed object. It's supposed to change, develop and grow. The first set of ideas are not what your support to finish with.
I suppose their should be a set of basics that tell us exactly what to believe, we could just get this faith off the peg as it were, signed up and never have to think about it again. Instead we get a load of contradictions, vague principals and a feel good notion that it will all pan out over time.

You could just take the 10 commandments and the creed and plough on. Might be the best way, ignore the arguments about whether God approves of gay marriage, fish on Fridays or innumerable little stuff religions seem to think He obsesses over.

Hope for the best? Well, why not.
You wake up this morning and the world as we perceive it, the physical journey, is still the same - whether we have proved or disproved the existence of a creative entity.
My personal opinion is that we continue after we leave the merry-go-round and move on.
I've no idea in what form we continue.
It's not so much a belief as a desire, a hope - and a bit of ego too!
Wouldn't it be a shame if all the posters on this thread disappeared at the end - what a waste!

Mr_Muffin · 08-03-2015 01:07PM

If no one we cannot prove the God exists then why do people believe he does? It is not illogical to do so? If he does exist how much power does he have, as in can what can he do exactly?

Also where is he exactly, is he in heaven? I am genuinely curious.

Cen taurus · 08-03-2015 01:15PM

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

If no one we cannot prove the God exists then why do people believe he does? It is not illogical to do so?

No evidence of alien life has ever been found yet.

It doesn't stop many people believing that there is other life out there in the universe and beyond, physical and/or spiritual, and an ultimate source to all energy and matter.

Something doesn't come from nothing. Nothing does not create or cause anything.

It's a big place out there.

Harika · 08-03-2015 01:24PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

No evidence of alien life has ever been found yet.

It doesn't stop many people believing that there is other life out there in the universe and beyond, physical and/or spiritual, and an ultimate source to all energy and matter.

It's a big place out there.

A lot of people might believe that aliens are out there, but how many obey the rules of the aliens?
I think, we believe mostly in our god, because we were told so. Some might find it appealing or comforting, others might like the religious community.

J C · 08-03-2015 01:27PM

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

Is there any proof that God exists?

There are many proofs for the existence of an invisible God ... indeed, the Bible says that it is so manifest and obvious from the physical things around us, that God Created them, and therefore exists, that it is foolish to believe otherwise.

Rom 1:19-23
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

... and for those who require extra-Biblical proof here are 20 arguments for the existence of God
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm#1

... and here are 6 reasons to believe God exists:-
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

... and here are 5 Proofs for his existence:-
http://www.andrewcorbett.net/articles/5-proofs.html

Cen taurus · 08-03-2015 01:27PM

Harika wrote: »

A lot of people might believe that aliens are out there, but how many obey the rules of the aliens?
I think, we believe mostly in our god, because we were told so. Some might find it appealing or comforting, others might like the religious community.

Or rather some of us believe in Christ's life and teachings and what he said and did.

Without that we would know little about God, and there would only be a few pagans about.

J C · 08-03-2015 01:30PM

Harika wrote: »

A lot of people might believe that aliens are out there, but how many obey the rules of the aliens?
I think, we believe mostly in our god, because we were told so. Some might find it appealing or comforting, others might like the religious community.

I know Aliens exist ... because I have seen them ... but I don't follow their rules ... because they have none.:D

IT-Guy · 08-03-2015 01:50PM

J C wrote: »

I know Aliens exist ... because I have seen them ... but I don't follow their rules ... because they have none.

I will never be able to read this without thinking WTF! and also asking you for more info on your alien sighting? Such a bizarre claim to make, the lack of detail smacks of attention seeking...

marienbad · 08-03-2015 01:51PM

J C wrote: »

I know Aliens exist ... because I have seen them ... but I don't follow their rules ... because they have none.

You left out the

J C

silverharp · 08-03-2015 01:52PM

J C wrote: »

There are many proofs for the existence of an invisible God ... indeed, the Bible says that it is so manifest and obvious from the physical things around us, that God Created them, and therefore exists, that it is foolish to believe otherwise.......

but the christian back story sucks, its too provincial , contains a psychopathic god in the OT and a NT story which is just wierd

J C · 08-03-2015 04:14PM

silverharp wrote: »

but the christian back story sucks, its too provincial , contains a psychopathic god in the OT and a NT story which is just wierd

I was asked for proof of God ... and I gave it ... without any response from you guys.

So, do you accept these proofs ... and are we now onto proofs for the God of the Bible / Jesus Christ?

J C · 08-03-2015 04:17PM

IT-Guy wrote: »

I will never be able to read this without thinking WTF! and also asking you for more info on your alien sighting? Such a bizarre claim to make, the lack of detail smacks of attention seeking...

What is bizzarre about my eye-witness sightings of Aliens?

Millions of other people have also seen them.

Your post smacks of 'sour grapes'!!!!:)

... and Marienbad ... just for you ... I've put in the smilie you requested

orubiru · 08-03-2015 05:52PM

J C wrote: »

There are many proofs for the existence of an invisible God ... indeed, the Bible says that it is so manifest and obvious from the physical things around us, that God Created them, and therefore exists, that it is foolish to believe otherwise.

Rom 1:19-23
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

... and for those who require extra-Biblical proof here are 20 arguments for the existence of God
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm#1

... and here are 6 reasons to believe God exists:-
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

... and here are 5 Proofs for his existence:-
http://www.andrewcorbett.net/articles/5-proofs.html

J C nothing you have presented here is proof.

The three articles basically follow the same kind of theme. There are a few rationalizations and philosophical arguments which are presented as "proof".

A lot of these points have been refuted or explained to you guys over and over and over. So you are either unable to understand why nothing you have presented is proof of Gods existence or you understand fully but are pushing on with it anyway.

Again, I feel like you are being dishonest or you just don't think so much.

I was going to go over each individual point but it's been done over and over again by people who are more educated than me and people who can get their point off more effectively than me.

So, why not choose your favourite "proof" from all those articles, just one, and we'll have a look at it and see how it holds up.

I'm going to ignore the Bible stuff. Trying to pass off anything written in the Bible as truth is so extremely dishonest that I'd not be doing either of us any favours by arguing about it.

Look, if there was evidence that God existed, I would believe it. There is no evidence and that is a problem. I would be fine with changing my worldview or beliefs or opinions if the right information is presented.

For you, is there honestly anything that anyone could say or do that would put an end to your belief in God?

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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