Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

JohnBee

Gunney wrote: »

Which gravity?

There are so many - there's the gravity which is genereted by the Earth whcih I can feel and experience, the gravity generated by teh moon evidenced by the tides, the gravity generated by the sun which I experience I'm told by the effect it has on the seasons, then there's dark gravity and maybe there's a few others.... oj vey - the quantum gravity...

Does it matter which one?

Oh wait, I see, you "believe" in gravity if you can personally experience it. :cool:

orubiru

Gunney wrote: »

Which gravity?

There are so many - there's the gravity which is genereted by the Earth whcih I can feel and experience, the gravity generated by teh moon evidenced by the tides, the gravity generated by the sun which I experience I'm told by the effect it has on the seasons, then there's dark gravity and maybe there's a few others.... oj vey - the quantum gravity...

I suggest you go back and do high school physics or something.

"Which gravity?"

Amazing!

Gunney

JohnBee wrote: »

Does it matter which one?

Oh wait, I see, you "believe" in gravity if you can personally experience it. :cool:

You haven't understood. Faith is believing in something without experiencing it directly and physically. This was explained to St Thomas by Jesus.

or you did understand but didn't realize how foolish your question was

JohnBee

orubiru wrote: »

I suggest you go back and do high school physics or something.

Orubiru, high-school physics? But surely that's witchcraft

Gunney

orubiru wrote: »

I suggest you go back and do high school physics or something.

"Which gravity?"

Amazing!

are you suggesting that the gravity we experience on earth is the same as the theoretical dark gravity and quantum gravity?

JohnBee

Gunney wrote: »

You haven't understood. Faith is believing in something without experiencing it directly and physically. This was explained to St Thomas by Jesus.

or you did understand but didn't realize how foolish your question was

I think it is more that you thought you were being ironic with regards to an atheist hypothesizing about something that could perhaps be considered intangible without you quite understanding the how foolish your comparison was. I agree with orubiru, you need to back to high-school physics. Although notwithstanding the terminology he used, perhaps primary school might be more appropriate.

Gunney

JohnBee wrote: »

I think it is more that you thought you were being ironic with regards to an atheist hypothesizing about something that could perhaps be considered intangible without you quite understanding the how foolish your comparison was. I agree with orubiru, you need to back to high-school physics. Although notwithstanding the terminology he used, perhaps primary school might be more appropriate.

are you also suggesting that earthly gravity or the measurable gravity between bodies is the same as dark gravity and quantum gravity?

RikuoAmero

Gunney wrote: »

You haven't understood. Faith is believing in something without experiencing it directly and physically. This was explained to St Thomas by Jesus.

or you did understand but didn't realize how foolish your question was

If you are attempting to make faith comparable to my belief in gravity (since I don't experience it directly or any other similar phenomena), then faith loses it's mystique.

JohnBee

Gunney wrote: »

are you suggesting that the gravity we experience on earth is the same as the theoretical dark gravity and quantum gravity?

Wow, you need to get back to the drawing board. There are so many inferences in your single short sentence, I dont know where to start!

Firstly, the use of the word "theoretical" to suggest, like the creationists who argue against Darwin because it is just a "theory", that it is not a valid scientific hypothesis is ridiculous. Perhaps you don't realise, but the gravity we experience on earth (and obviously if us humans can personally experience it, therefore it must be real) is referred to also as a "theory" and not a "fact". Does this mean that gravity on earth is not real?

Secondly, you seem to frame the validity of scientific hypotheses based on our ability to experience them. Does this mean that the observed gravitational forces in the motion of distant universes, whilst the same "gravity" you can experience here on earth, don't exist because you cannot perceive them? Or is it just that you cannot understand it?

Finally, your lack of knowledge is really coming though when you seem to cast doubt over quantum gravity as perhaps not being quite as "real" as the Newtonian apple falling from the tree type of gravity. However, quantum gravity merely refers to the science/mathematical physics behind the modeling of the forces at a quantum (aka really really small) level. However, just because we don't have the formula yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you think our current lack of mathematical modeling of quantum gravity means it does not quite exist, then does this mean that before Newton, the apple couldn't fall from the tree?

JohnBee

Gunney wrote: »

are you also suggesting that earthly gravity or the measurable gravity between bodies is the same as dark gravity and quantum gravity?

What do you mean the same? Do you mean they describe the same force? Or are you referring to whether or not they exist based on the anthropomorphic viewpoint?

Gunney

RikuoAmero wrote: »

If you are attempting to make faith comparable to my belief in gravity (since I don't experience it directly or any other similar phenomena), then faith loses it's mystique.

Have you tried jumping up and down?

Or when you jump do you stay up?

RikuoAmero

Gunney wrote: »

Have you tried jumping up and down?

Or when you jump do you stay up?

No, God himself pulls me down to the ground. Why is it you don't believe me? What grounds do you have to doubt my teachings?

P.S. did you not catch the "loses it's mystique" part? Are you wondering what I mean by that?

Gunney

RikuoAmero wrote: »

No, God himself pulls me down to the ground. Why is it you don't believe me? What grounds do you have to doubt my teachings?

P.S. did you not catch the "loses it's mystique" part? Are you wondering what I mean by that?

Come on, you can mock better than that.

JohnBee

Gunney wrote: »

Have you tried jumping up and down?

Or when you jump do you stay up?

What happens when YOU do it? If you fall back down, then you experience gravity, gravity as described by general relativity, and gravity as described by quantum theory. No one has failed to rationalize the two theories, despite Stephen Hawking's stated goal, however, again as stated before, just because we can't do the sums, doesn't make them non-existent forces. Unless of course you are a solipsist and truly believe that the tree falling in the forest with no one around to hear it really does make NO sound

orubiru

Gunney wrote: »

are you suggesting that the gravity we experience on earth is the same as the theoretical dark gravity and quantum gravity?

Those are both hypothetical so straight off and I have to say that I don't know much. I do know that they are not different TYPES of Gravity.

These hypotheses are attempts to describe Gravity. They are not proposing a new kind of Gravity, and even if they were it's just speculation. They are proposing a new description of Gravity.

To be clear here, theoretical physicists do not have "faith" in Dark Gravity and Quantum Gravity. These are things that are being explored through experiments. If someone comes up with a better idea tomorrow then maybe that will turn out to be true. Hey, maybe "God did it"?

What tests are theists coming up with to prove the existence of God? How close do you think you are to proving His existence?

Gunney

JohnBee wrote: »

What happens when YOU do it?

I experience gravity. Something Rikeamoru does not experience, apparently.

as I am not an atheist I have no truck with solipsism.

RikuoAmero

Gunney wrote: »

Come on, you can mock better than that.

Yes, I can. Just couldn't be arsed to try any better really.

Gunney

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Yes, I can. Just couldn't be arsed to try any better really.

that sums up your arguments nicely

Gunney

orubiru wrote: »

What tests are theists coming up with to prove the existence of God? How close do you think you are to proving His existence?

Why do we or would we need to prove His existence?

RikuoAmero

Gunney wrote: »

Why do we need to prove His existence?

Facepalm.

JohnBee

Gunney wrote: »

I experience gravity. Something Rikeamoru does not experience, apparently.

as I am not an atheist I have no truck with solipsism.

Does your worldview depend on whether you personally experience something or that you can perceive that experience?

You seem to have difficulty "believing" in forces that you cannot experience. Dark gravity and quantum gravity were examples you used, and seem to doubt their existence based on your perceived lack of personal experience. As pointed out, you do experience them, however, you may not consciously perceive them, in the same way you don't consciously perceive what happens on mars. However, that doesn't negate their existence, it merely highlights your ignorance.

orubiru

Gunney wrote: »

Why do we or would we need to prove His existence?

I think you just broke my brain.

JohnBee

Gunney wrote: »

Why do we or would we need to prove His existence?

Aside from anything, it might be nice for humanity. Even on small human scale practical levels. If we could prove god existed, then perhaps we could decide which one he is. Is he the Jewish God? The Buddhist sea of existence? The Greek God of Thunder? Then we perhaps I could remove the label "infidel" that the Koran applies to me. Perhaps we could stop using religion to kill each other. These are just a few delightful things we could do.

Gunney

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Facepalm.

Hope that didn't hurt.

Faith is about free will. We choose to accept God or reject Him of our own free will.

If we proved His existence beyond all reasonable doubt or if He appeared to you what would you do?

I have been asked if I "believe" in gravity. How can I reject gravity?

RikuoAmero

Gunney wrote: »

Hope that didn't hurt.

Faith is about free will. We choose to accept God or reject Him of our own free will.

If we proved His existence beyond all reasonable doubt or if He appeared to you what would you do?

Replace the word God there with any person's name.
Faith is about free will. We choose to accept "<Insert Loved One's Name Here>" or reject him of our own free will. If we proved their existence beyond all reasonable doubt or if he appeared to you, what would you do.

Suddenly the statement you made no longer makes sense.

Gunney

JohnBee wrote: »

Aside from anything, it might be nice for humanity. Even on small human scale practical levels. If we could prove god existed, then perhaps we could decide which one he is. Is he the jewish god? The buddist sea of existence? The Greek god of Thunder? Then we perhaps I could remove the label "infidel" that the Koran applies to me. Perhaps we could stop using religion to kill each other. These are just a few delightful hings we could do.

Go back to the gravity question. Do you "believe" in gravity? If you do not how do you reject gravity?

As already mention God wants us to accept Him and follow Him of our own free will.


BTW your comment on religion and killing is just bigotry.

Gunney

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Replace the word God there with any person's name.
Faith is about free will. We choose to accept "<Insert Loved One's Name Here>" or reject him of our own free will. If we proved their existence beyond all reasonable doubt or if he appeared to you, what would you do.

Suddenly the statement you made no longer makes sense.

Of course not. You changed it into something only you can understand. Nonesense.

But I thank you for confirming that my original unamended statement does make sense.

JohnBee

Gunney wrote: »

Hope that didn't hurt.

Faith is about free will. We choose to accept God or reject Him of our own free will.

If we proved His existence beyond all reasonable doubt or if He appeared to you what would you do?

I have been asked if I "believe" in gravity. How can I reject gravity?

You are forgetting your previous posts where you suggest that dark gravity is not quite as "real" as the Newtonian gravity that causes the apple to fall from the tree. I am happy to refresh your memory

You pose the question as to what an atheist might do when faced with undeniable proof of the existence of HIM. I assume given you use the word HIm, you mean the Abrahamic god of Christianity, Islam and Judaism? Ironically you miss the point of science in your question. Most atheists face the world we live in with excitement and wonder, ready to receive new knowledge, open to burning previous hypotheses in favour of new ideas. You might be surprised to find that atheists would probably be first in line to wonder at "his" miracle whilst the many religions of the world probably up their war against each other in a race to claim "him" for their own.

RikuoAmero

Gunney wrote: »

Of course not. You changed it into something only you can understand. Nonesense.

But I thank you for confirming that my original unamended statement does make sense.

No, I'm pointing out the special pleading you do. I don't know if you yourself have said it here, but the christian god is often talked about as being a "personal" god i.e. interacts with humans on a personal level, just like people do with each other. This is how he is described, this is the analogy used.
Yet, when I try to apply the analogy to other situations where you use God...it doesn't work. It's nonsensical.

orubiru

Gunney wrote: »

Hope that didn't hurt.

Faith is about free will. We choose to accept God or reject Him of our own free will.

If we proved His existence beyond all reasonable doubt or if He appeared to you what would you do?

I have been asked if I "believe" in gravity. How can I reject gravity?

If God appeared to me then there would be questions. Definitely.

Thats Human nature though. We question things. So, it surprises me that so many of us are happy to settle for faith. Undeniable proof that God exists would simply raise an even bigger set of questions. Or it should anyway.

Looking back, it's one of the reasons I gave up on religion and God. As a kid, being told something extraordinary just made me want to know more and the general attitude was "don't ask questions" or flimsy answers or avoidance or flat out ignoring.

In the real world we can just ask more and more questions and when intelligent people, with no ulterior motive, don't know they just say "I don't know. Lets find out!"