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Ireland vs England, Sunday 1st March 3pm; RTE/BBC

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    #1442
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Buer wrote: »
    It's a fairly remarkable statistic. That's close to hitting every second ruck which is freakish.

    Offensive and defensive rucks so more like one in four. Still completely ridiculous.


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    #1443
    ssaye2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭ssaye2


    https://mobile.twitter.com/AccentureRugby


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    #1444
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users Posts: 4,443 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    That analysis is brilliant, love reading his stuff.

    Anybody concerned about refs starting to ping for defensive players stopping the ball coming out, rather than actually competing to turn over the ball?

    POM was done for this once last game, it's quite marginal whether you are trying to win the ball but being prevented by the player not rolling/releasing, or whether you're just there in position trying to win the pen. I think POM (in particular) technique is very strong over the ball, and sometimes perhaps at the cost of actually trying to put his hands on the ball, in which case he arguably leaves himself open to being pinged.

    In a way, the first clip in that article with JM winning the pen is another example. JM's left hand is under the player, so effectively he's hugging the player plus ball on the ground, there's no way the player can roll away or release properly, and similarly there's no way that JM can win the ball, except if he was to scrag it with his right hand.


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    #1445
    TommyOM
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    52 rucks and how many tackles?!?!

    It's getting to the stage where we are actually going to miss Jordi Murphy not in our backrow!

    In my opinion he shouldn't be dropped he should be there ahead of O'Mahony on merit but I'm not even going to bother trying to argue it. I personally feel the stats speak for themselves and from even watching the respective performances I think Murphy has been better.


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    #1446
    davegrohl48
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭davegrohl48


    TommyOM wrote: »
    52 rucks and how many tackles?!?!

    It's getting to the stage where we are actually going to miss Jordi Murphy not in our backrow!

    In my opinion he shouldn't be dropped he should be there ahead of O'Mahony on merit but I'm not even going to bother trying to argue it. I personally feel the stats speak for themselves and from even watching the respective performances I think Murphy has been better.
    Murphy looked quicker and a more dynamic carrier. Looks to have pace n agility more like a centre. But I guess O'Mahoney is favoured for breakdown ... but Murphy was/is decent in that area too. Not that outlandish a call.


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    #1447
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,459 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    TommyOM wrote: »
    52 rucks and how many tackles?!?!

    It's getting to the stage where we are actually going to miss Jordi Murphy not in our backrow!

    In my opinion he shouldn't be dropped he should be there ahead of O'Mahony on merit but I'm not even going to bother trying to argue it. I personally feel the stats speak for themselves and from even watching the respective performances I think Murphy has been better.

    No chance. Murphy is Ireland's third choice 6 at best.


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    #1448
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    awec wrote: »
    No chance. Murphy is Ireland's third choice 6 at best.

    I presume he means at 7, and then sob to start at 6.

    It's an interesting idea... But that's as far as it goes. Whilst the gap isn't far between pom and the other pretenders, I think he has a lot of qualities the others just can't process. I hate using the cliche 'pashun' but the guy literally fights tooth and nail for his country.

    Our strongest back row by some distance us Peter, Sean and Jamie. They're a brilliant unit.


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    #1449
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    .ak wrote: »
    Our strongest back row by some distance us Peter, Sean and Jamie. They're a brilliant unit.

    On paper, but I don't think we've actually seen the evidence of this yet with our own two eyes, they've barely played together, and when they have it's been under circumstances like SOB playing his 2nd game of rugby in 14 months. Think they played against NZ too maybe?

    I'm sure it's what Schmidt will stick with if everyone is fit though.


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    #1450
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    .ak wrote: »
    the guy literally fights tooth and nail for his country

    I get what you're saying here and I don't mean to be overly pedantic, but isn't that exactly what Jordi was doing as well with those stats? At what point do you differentiate the effort made?


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    #1451
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I get what you're saying here and I don't mean to be overly pedantic, but isn't that exactly what Jordi was doing as well with those stats? At what point do you differentiate the effort made?

    I have no idea. How red your face gets during a game?


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    #1452
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    I have no idea. How red your face gets during a game?

    It must be at anthem time!


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    #1453
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I get what you're saying here and I don't mean to be overly pedantic, but isn't that exactly what Jordi was doing as well with those stats? At what point do you differentiate the effort made?

    If POM's going to start there it's not because of that, Ruddock, Henderson and Murphy will all give everything if picked. POM will likely be favoured because he does the job Schmidt wants him to do better than the rest, his quality over the ball, low error count, excellent defensive lineout and he's increasingly being used as a handling option out wide, in addition to his high workrate and decent carrying obviously

    I still think we could see Ruddock come in for him in certain games though


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    #1454
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Tox56 wrote: »
    If POM's going to start there it's not because of that, Ruddock, Henderson and Murphy will all give everything if picked. POM will likely be favoured because he does the job Schmidt wants him to do better than the rest, his quality over the ball, low error count, excellent defensive lineout and he's increasingly being used as a handling option out wide, in addition to his high workrate and decent carrying obviously

    I still think we could see Ruddock come in for him in certain games though

    I was saying exactly that ahead of the Scotland game last year, I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see Joe pull that out.


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    #1455
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    molloyjh wrote: »
    It must be at anthem time!

    Well in fairness, POM beats all and sundry in this regard bar a certain Mr Hayes!


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    #1456
    TommyOM
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    6.O'Brien 7.Murphy 8.Heaslip would be my starting backrow.


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    #1457
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    POM is one of our most important players. He's simply a significantly better player than Murphy and there isn't a chance Joe will drop him for Murphy.


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    #1458
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    POM is one of our most important players. He's simply a significantly better player than Murphy and there isn't a chance Joe will drop him for Murphy.

    For now I agree. I think Jordi is a superstar in the making though. Thought as much a few years ago when Schmidt leap-frogged him over a few of the other academy guys for a senior game (during the world cup?). There were a few others playing well at the time in the academy and people were a bit like 'Jordi who?' but when he came onto the field he didn't miss a beat, where as guys like JvDF and Leavy look great at lower levels but look a bit out of place on a pitch with senior players.

    He's another SOB in the making to be honest. In a couple of years time he could be putting serious pressure on any of SOB, Heaslip or POM.


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    #1459
    TommyOM
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭TommyOM


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    POM is one of our most important players. He's simply a significantly better player than Murphy and there isn't a chance Joe will drop him for Murphy.

    He hasn't been a better player than Jordi Murphy in the six nations so far. Jordi Murphy has outperformed him and the stats reflect that.

    POM is a fantastic player but he is not Sexton, POC, Heaslip or SOB. I think he can and should be replaced for Jordi Murphy going on this years 6N.


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    #1460
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,459 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    TommyOM wrote: »
    He hasn't been a better player than Jordi Murphy in the six nations so far. Jordi Murphy has outperformed him and the stats reflect that.

    POM is a fantastic player but he is not Sexton, POC, Heaslip or SOB. I think he can and should be replaced for Jordi Murphy going on this years 6N.

    The entire game of rugby cannot be condensed down to just looking at stats.

    POM is a better player than Murphy. There is no question about that.

    If POM loses his place it would be for Henderson, not Murphy, but it's not going to happen bar injury.


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    #1461
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,189 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I have been pretty much a serial cynic regarding Murphy. He was a big carrier around the field in open play. Didn't bust through people too much (although can get over the gain line through people), nothing much in the line out, pretty ineffective at the ruck.

    Well shut my mouth. The guy has been so good in the last 6 weeks. His carrying has been solid and physical. He has been a real option as a jumper, thrown to six times in the tournament thus far. And the breakdown? I'm pretty sure he's using a body double because that can't be Jordi Murphy who was absolutely schooled at the breakdown more often than not for Leinster when he played openside to date. Even in his French cameo, he got over the ball 3 or 4 times, slowing their possession significantly before having the sense to get hands away.

    He has conceded one penalty which was borderline.

    Overall, given where he started from, I'm probably most impressed with him above any other this tournament closely followed by Zebo. Both have reached new levels.


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    #1462
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,189 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    awec wrote: »
    The entire game of rugby cannot be condensed down to just looking at stats.

    *deletes account*


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    #1463
    willit
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭willit


    England
    TommyOM wrote: »
    He hasn't been a better player than Jordi Murphy in the six nations so far. Jordi Murphy has outperformed him and the stats reflect that.

    POM is a fantastic player but he is not Sexton, POC, Heaslip or SOB. I think he can and should be replaced for Jordi Murphy going on this years 6N.

    I would have thought that , after the England game, only Sexton, Murray and POC are irreplaceable now. Not saying that SOB and Heaslip aren't class players or aren't better than their replacements, however, those replacements have proven they can more than do the job.


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    #1464
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    TommyOM wrote: »
    He hasn't been a better player than Jordi Murphy in the six nations so far. Jordi Murphy has outperformed him and the stats reflect that.

    POM is a fantastic player but he is not Sexton, POC, Heaslip or SOB. I think he can and should be replaced for Jordi Murphy going on this years 6N.

    Henderson attempted 400% more tackles in his 15 minutes than Toner did in the previous 65. The stats indicate that Henderson is a significantly better player than Toner, and by your reasoning, he should be starting ahead of him.


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    #1465
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    awec wrote: »
    The entire game of rugby cannot be condensed down to just looking at stats.

    POM is a better player than Murphy. There is no question about that.

    If POM loses his place it would be for Henderson, not Murphy, but it's not going to happen bar injury.

    Yeah, this is what we seem to be missing here. You drop POM and shift O'Brien to a position he hasn't played in about four years, just to accommodate Murphy? Very unlikely.

    That said, POM is definitely not "undroppable", and the next few years will see a titanic struggle between him, Henderson and Ruddock for the 6 jersey.


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    #1466
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    TommyOM wrote: »
    6.O'Brien 7.Murphy 8.Heaslip would be my starting backrow.

    Hmmm. Struggling to work out what these lads have in common...

    POM is not going anywhere from 6 if he remains injury-free. I would think his only contender is a fully fit Ruddock.


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    #1467
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,459 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    In future we will really only see SOB at 6 in case of emergency IMO, or else during a mid-game shuffle. He hasn't played there in ages, I think it's fair to say that SOB is now a 7 only (cause he's always been a bit meh at 8).

    Plenty of other quality options at 6 that can play without upsetting the other parts of the back row.


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    #1468
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    SOB is fantastic across all positions. He's a a bit of a super-soldier in that regard, has the physical profile to play any position, might be a bit short for 6/8 but it really doesn't effect him. But no, I wouldn't move him from his best position which has always been 7 for me.


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    #1469
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The only way SOB moves from 7 is if a better openside flanker comes up from below.


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    #1470
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    England
    Our backrow depth is becoming very strong. It would be stronger if Ferris and Henry were around.


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    #1471
    Mr. Boo
    Registered Users Posts: 347 ✭✭Mr. Boo


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    Henderson attempted 400% more tackles in his 15 minutes than Toner did in the previous 65. The stats indicate that Henderson is a significantly better player than Toner, and by your reasoning, he should be starting ahead of him.

    Out of interest, what were their percentages on making tackles?


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