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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,200 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Hagz wrote: »
    Nope, I think given the circumstances he should start.

    Interesting. On the basis of being the man in possession and/or being fully match fit, I presume?

    I don't think I could give him the jersey. I just don't think he's of the required level. He probably won't let anyone down but I don't think he'll do anything to alter the game or deliver a momentum changing play. Zebo, for me, has shown more in about 100 minutes of rugby than DK has shown in the last month. Also Trimble has been playing excellently.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭former legend


    Buer wrote: »
    Interesting. On the basis of being the man in possession and/or being fully match fit, I presume?

    I think that's fair enough really. People were pretty skeptical of him in the Autumn but he played well, I think he's earned another go.
    Buer wrote: »
    I don't think I could give him the jersey. I just don't think he's of the required level. He probably won't let anyone down but I don't think he'll do anything to alter the game or deliver a momentum changing play. Zebo, for me, has shown more in about 100 minutes of rugby than DK has shown in the last month. Also Trimble has been playing excellently.

    But I would also agree with this; I think he will be overhauled by McFadden, Zebo and Bowe as they come back to match fitness. In fairness to Dave K, he's been part of a Leinster backline that has failed to fire as a unit so his lack of impact may not be entirely his own fault.

    I'd be delighted to see Trimble get a run too, he hasn't been given a fair shake in recent years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    bilston wrote: »
    Ahead of a fit and on form Tommy Bowe?

    Ahead of nobody really. Bowe, Zebo, Earls, Gilroy, all 4 would be ahead of McFadden,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    Interesting. On the basis of being the man in possession and/or being fully match fit, I presume?

    I think given the circumstances - Zebo and McFadden being very raw on game-time this season and Bowe still in rehab, I would start Kearney for this Scotland game. I don't think he'll produce any magic, but he's more than capable of performing to the required level (not necessarily everyone's desired level). I wouldn't like to see either Ferg or Zebo start not only due to that fact that both have been out for a lengthy period, but also because I think it would be a pretty demoralising thing to do. On top of that, we only have a 6 day turn-around until the Welsh game, and with Zebo and Ferg so light on game-time I think you would be taking a risk to chuck them in to the test scene against a bruising Scottish side and then only give them 6 days to prepare for what will be a massive game against a massively physical Welsh back-line. I know we're talking about wingers here, and wingers aren't exactly the sorest of players after a test match, but I still think it's an unnecessary risk.

    Start Kearney, he'll do the job. He's unlikely to set the world alight, and that gives you reason to then add either Ferg or Zebo into the mix for the Welsh game. If he does set the world alight, then great.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    Ahead of nobody really. Bowe, Zebo, Earls, Gilroy, all 4 would be ahead of McFadden,

    Not a snowball's chance in hell is Gilroy ahead of McFadden.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    Hagz wrote: »
    Nope, I think given the circumstances he should start.

    He shouldn't even be in the matchday 23. Don't think Joe wpike even entertain the thought


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Can't see Gilroy featuring bar a few injuries after last night.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Ahead of nobody really. Bowe, Zebo, Earls, Gilroy, all 4 would be ahead of McFadden,

    Again, did you watch the AIs or any of Leinster at all earlier this season? You tell me which of those wingers has put in a better performance than McFadden against Aus this season please. Keep in mind it was Australia, who are in the top 3 or 4 sides in the world, not Edinburgh or someone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    danthefan wrote: »
    Again, did you watch the AIs or any of Leinster at all earlier this season? You tell me which of those wingers has put in a better performance than McFadden against Aus this season please. Keep in mind it was Australia, who are in the top 3 or 4 sides in the world, not Edinburgh or someone.

    At best, McFadden should have the 23 jersey, he's a good backup for a number of positions, but wouldn't have him near the starting 15.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,147 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Interesting reading in the Sunday Times today and they'd a few ex players (Killian Keane, Shane Byrne, Ralph Keyes and someone else) and McFadden was popping up on the wing for a few of their Ireland teams.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    At best, McFadden should have the 23 jersey, he's a good backup for a number of positions, but wouldn't have him near the starting 15.

    You didn't answer the question, you wouldn't have him near the starting XV but that isn't the reality of the situation I'm afraid.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    danthefan wrote: »
    You didn't answer the question, you wouldn't have him near the starting XV but that isn't the reality of the situation I'm afraid.

    My opinion is that he should have a bench spot, your opinion differs to mine.
    The reality is, neither of us know what the situation is within the Ireland camp & to suggest otherwise is folly
    Edit: for clarity, its wing positions I'm talking about, if McFadden was to be picked at centre I would welcome it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    My opinion is that he should have a bench spot, your opinion differs to mine.
    The reality is, neither of us know what the situation is within the Ireland camp & to suggest otherwise is folly

    You stated matter-of-factly above that 4 wingers were ahead of him!

    I don't have a direct line to Joe Schmidt or anything but I would be certainly willing to bet if it was between McFadden and Gilroy then McFadden would get the nod, and the others would take a fair bit of debate, Bowe excepted who is our best winger.

    I also don't really think his form earlier in the season is a matter of opinion, he was objectively in excellent form. Look at his stats from the Aus game, 120m made or something, 3 or 4 clean breaks, defenders beaten, etc.

    Edit - jaysus don't know what I did to the English language in my initial post, but fixed now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    Matter of factly? Its an internet chat forum, it's my opinion! You can chose to agree or disagree, Opinions are neither right nor wrong, they are just the views of that person. Personally I think McFadden could be beneficial to Ireland in the center, much, much more so than on the wing.
    That's all. If you wish to disagree with my opinion that fine


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    danthefan wrote: »

    Edit - jaysus don't know what I did to the English language in my initial post, but fixed now.

    Thought you were on the beer for a minute ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    Opinions are neither right nor wrong


    What if your opinion is 2+2=5?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    What if your opinion is 2+2=5?

    Please! Rory Best & Sean Cronin together would never be equal to Paul O'Connell !


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Please! Rory Best & Sean Cronin together would never be equal to Paul O'Connell !

    But poc can be 4 too ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭durkadurka


    Stephen Ferris just tweeted that he's packing boots for training tomorrow for the first time in months.
    Fingers crossed and all that for the big fella.


  • Administrators Posts: 53,560 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    fiKtONm.png

    Oh yea. :)

    borat-dance.gif


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭Taco Corp




  • Administrators Posts: 53,560 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    too soon...

    We'll have to find something better than the borat gif if or when he's named in an Ulster team, borat won't do it justice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    I think we've abused the Borat clip. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    What follows is a rambling dossier I've assembled of a Sunday night to allow me to procrastinate from doing some work I promised to do on Friday night. Cheers!

    ...Thinking a bit harder about the team I'd like to see picked and the way I'd like to see us play, I've been trying to track down the expected Scottish team, without much luck. But I can only imagine they'll be very like last season, and that doesn't really inspire much hope that they'll bring anything remotely interesting to the field. However it also doesn't inspire much hope that they'll be particularly easy to break down, or willing to roll over for us.

    My thoughts on the Scottish team in the past few years is that they are high in motivation and work ethic, but low in true talent. There are two types of underdog victory, either through bringing the opposition down to your level or raising yourself above theirs (for Irish reference: Australia 2011 or England 2011). The Scottish certainly seem more likely to pull off the former (which should not by any less impressive, I don't mean it condescendingly, such results are only derived through utter dominance in certain areas).

    We know all about their approach, because we embodied it year on year and gained a lot from it. We've also witnessed the weakness of such an approach first hand. It's all about breaking the game down, bringing the opposition into as many 50/50 contests as possible, and then capitalising at that point. Pick a facet of the game you gan gain the upper hand, force the game in that direction, and do it repeatedly, emphasising your strengths and making your weaknesses redundant. When Scotland play well they do exactly that, with a destructive lineout to put pressure on the opposition and an intelligent skillful halfback to ensure it's being done in opposition territory. When they get the ball, they aren't focused on keeping it for 20 phases because they haven't a clue what to do with it past the 5th, and even if they did their pack isn't physical or athletic enough to maintain possession that long anyway. Any dangerous back play comes in the first few phases off a turnover or off a set piece. And if that doesn't come quickly, their talismanic 9 is disposing of possession before it's too late.

    So they are very much like an early EOS Ireland team, with (less) talent all in different positions, but in (philosophically) all the same places. So how do you beat a team like that? In my experience, such a team is beaten through a tight, technically superior, strong-willed performance. Which is nonsense psychobabble for doing the basics better than they can hope to. We need to play our basic game well enough that they are unable to spoil it, to bring the standard of the match above their reach. Don't let them turn the breakdown into a 50/50 affair, it can't come down to who wants it more. Don't let them spoil our lineout, we need to keep the set piece simple and secure our own ball. You don't need to be destructive on opposition set-piece ball when you dominate open play, because they will never be able to derive a put-in in your territory. Keep the ball through phases and dominate possession all over the field, and use that possession to slowly pull away. We don't necessarily need to score any tries to be 15 points ahead of this Scottish team at half time. And then when the 2nd half settles down and they are starting to lose touch and tire (from consistently defending all day as we keep them off the ball), we use our depth from the bench to launch an attack and change the tempo of the game on our own terms, spending the final 20 minutes trying to break their defense completely and tear through them with attacking creative play at every opportunity. This is a game plan about strangling them for 60 minutes and then ripping their windpipe out with the rest, crucially silencing any nearby bagpipes in the process.

    And so, with THAT in mind and having been said, I can now suggest my own team. It's not the best 15 players available, it's the best 15 players to play the game I've just described in the fashion I've just described.

    Cian Healy, Rory Best, Mike Ross, Devin Toner, Paul O'Connell, Rhys Ruddock, Chris Henry, Jamie Heaslip; Conor Murray, Johnny Sexton, Luke Fitzgerald, Gordon D'Arcy, Brian O'Driscoll, Fergus McFadden, Rob Kearney
    Sean Cronin, Jack McGrath, Martin Moore, Dan Tuohy, Peter O'Mahoney, Eoin Reddan, Paddy Jackson, Simon Zebo

    To go through those, the front row I think is inarguably the best available and will be picked for obvious reasons. From them, all I think we need is an experienced mature performance in the set piece, we just need to win all our own ball, nothing crazy is needed on opposition possession. In open play, Healy and Best will undoubtedly be hugely influential, and I think Healy has a massive role to play to make up for the loss of SOB's carrying threat. He also could be massive after 60 minutes if he lasts it. Mike Ross isn't half the player the others are in the loose, but he doesn't need to be in this game. Jack McGrath and more so Martin Moore are young, athletic and will be able to actually make some form of impact in the 3rd quarter, I doubt they'd be capable of influencing the game meaningfully in the opening half.

    In the row, you have the unquestionable and crucial leadership of Paul O'Connell beside an in-form Toner. Toner is there because he gives us our 100% chance in the lineout, he dominated the lineout against that certain Scottish 2nd Row in the H Cup not so long ago and with O'Connell organising things he should be even more effective. The offensive lineout is absolutely crucial, for those wondering why I am highlighting it, because Laidlaw will find touch in our territory, and we cannot give up possession cheaply when he does. The defensive lineout is almost irrelevant, because unless were doing something very wrong they should not be putting the ball into it in dangerous positions (or any positions at all) with regularity. Dan Tuohy on the bench is aggressive, powerful and perfect for when we up the tempo in the 3rd quarter.

    The back row will be something a lot of people would be feeling angry about. Purely because of O'Mahoney, and that is absolutely fair enough if you disregard my earlier reasoning. I think he is definitely in the top 3 back row forwards available to us, in fact I think he is better than 2 of the back row forwards I picked above. But if you recall my earlier talk of windpipes and strangulation, Peter O'Mahoney's use in this way is absolutely indicative of what I want to see. Rhys Ruddock can't make nearly the impact in an open attacking game that POM can, but that's not what I think we should be pursuing in the first half, the back row in the first half will be entirely tasked with following possession closely and ruthlessly dispatching the Scots before they can make a dent, and these two flankers are all about exactly that. It's a tiresome process, especially if we do our job and go through 10+ phase possessions with regularity. When we change tempo, it will need to be accompanied with fresh legs, and the introduction of POM could be the turning point IMO. A strong point could be made that Chris Henry is capable of similar and that switch would offer more over the 80 minutes (POM/Ruddock starting with Henry on for Ruddock after 60). But I think POM offers a far more aggressive attacking presence off the bench, which I think could actually be more influential than the individual performances of either of the other two over the first 60. We know what Heaslip brings, he'll be among the best forwards on the park no matter how we set out our stall.

    The half backs pick themselves really. Murray and Sexton playing the possession-driven controlling rugby which I think suits both of them perfectly for possibly the first time apart from under Gatland (but that doesn't count... because Howley). Reddan being a crucial addition at the turn with Jackson maybe picking up a consolation cap (he'll be covering injury to the geriatric centers as well so I doubt we'll see much of him regardless of the game plan).

    The back line mostly picks itself to my mind. A Schmidt back line has never seemed to be about individual brilliance (which is why we got rid of that Nacewa messer) out wide, but rather about the ability to create space for anyone, the backs serving as conduits for strike runners around them, regardless of the strike runners position. In the context of this game, it's about the ability to combine attacking threat with consistency and reliability in terms of retaining possession, the lack of Bowe giving McFadden a possible chance (I'd like to see Trimble either instead of McFadden, it's really a 50/50 call to me). Zebo is a certainty on the bench for me if he's fully fit now, when we put the foot down it'd be nice to have an absolute flyer to take advantage of all the space we'd hope to create.

    The ref will be Craig Joubert, and I think we can make that suit us if we're smart. If we play clean and solid attacking rugby in the first half, I think he'll facilitate us with shots on goal. Last season Craig Joubert officiated over a record-breaking game between Scotland and Wales that saw 18 kicks at goal, so we need to ensure that if he's in that sort of move that it is to our advantage (and we can't give Laidlaw a sniff). As it's a SH ref there should be nothing stopping us dominating the breakdown.

    Overall I think we'd be capable of this. I think there's plenty the Scots will throw at us, but if we retain composure, keep to the plan, and play towards the areas where our strengths overlap with their weaknesses then I think we should have enough about ourselves. I think we can win by a good margin and usher in a new era, and I could see it being something like 33-12 at full time.

    That's my team, my opinion, my justification for the selection and my prediction. Of course, Scotland might drop Richie Gray, in that case I reckon we're in for a really tight game and I hope we can manage to squeeze a victory out of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    Without getting into a debate on who is the better player and who offers what capabilities I'd like to see Marshall given an opportunity to make the 12 jersey his own, he's playing well enough and is most likely to possess the jersey in years to come. Playing him over D'arcy offers virtually no risk with potentially good rewards.

    On a side note I like the idea of McCarthy and Ruddock in the same side, huge physicality and with Best, POC, Ruddock, McCarthy and Henry in the pack I could see us posing a real problem for opposition sides with our choke tackling.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    I'd be very disappointed to see such a negative side selected. We should be trying to beat Scotland, rather than stopping them from beating us. That team has almost no attacking threat. Healy is a brilliant carrier, and Heaslip can be brilliant at that aspect too. The halfbacks have the ability to be one of the best in the world, but that team will only have us using their defensive qualities. The only real threat in the outside backs is Fitzgerald, and he has scored in only one of his 27 international caps.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I'd be very disappointed to see such a negative side selected. We should be trying to beat Scotland, rather than stopping them from beating us. That team has almost no attacking threat. Healy is a brilliant carrier, and Heaslip can be brilliant at that aspect too. The halfbacks have the ability to be one of the best in the world, but that team will only have us using their defensive qualities. The only real threat in the outside backs is Fitzgerald, and he has scored in only one of his 27 international caps.

    It's a team picked to entirely focus on gaining dominance in the tight and retaining possession for as long as possible for the first 60 minutes which is about as attacking as it gets really. If you do get a chance to read the post you'll see I specifically said the likes of Healy's attacking abilities would be crucial to that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    A few tweaks when the teams are announced, add a table and a prediction - and we have our match preview!

    I've been planning to write a table generating script that will do all the hard work for us people who aren't like Molloy and stick it up on a website for us, I just need to find more time to procrastinate later this week!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    What follows is a rambling dossier I've assembled of a Sunday night to allow me to procrastinate from doing some work I promised to do on Friday night. Cheers!

    ...

    That's my team, my opinion, my justification for the selection and my prediction. Of course, Scotland might drop Richie Gray, in that case I reckon we're in for a really tight game and I hope we can manage to squeeze a victory out of it.

    A few tweaks when the teams are announced, add a table and a prediction - and we have our match preview!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    I definitely think Ruddock is pushing POM if not on an overall skill level basis, on a tactical level.

    Personally a McCarthy/Tuohy with Ruddock at 6 option for Scotland would be my choice.

    Will be really interesting to see how Joe's backrow shapes up. Under Kidney, POM generally played a looser, wider game with the other two tighter in when moving forward.

    At Leinster, Ruddock and previously Locky have been used as ruck clearers and tight carriers generally. Should be interesting to see.


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