Now Ye're Talking - To a Transgender Woman

Dav · 04-03-2015 5:18pm #1

I'd like you all to meet, if you haven't already, deirdre_dub.

Deirdre is a 45 year old male-to-female transgender woman, who has been in transition for 5 years. In 2014 she won an equality case against AIB over the bank's refusal to change the name on her account. She has been involved in transgender activism, which saw her address the Labour party conference in 2012, and she organised a protest outside RTE in 2014 over the transphobic show "The Centre". She has co-hosted two LGBT radio shows, and has written occasionally in the LGBT media. She is currently studying TV presentation and production.

GLaDOS · 04-03-2015 5:35pm

First, thank you for for doing the AMA, really looking forward to what insights you can give us.

You've obviously put yourself somewhat in the public eye to stand up for your rights, and transgender rights in general (and I say fair play to you). Did you worry this could make you a target for abuse?

Have you seen anyone do a complete u-turn as to their opinion on transgender folk? i.e. go from hating/denying it's real to acceptance?

Did you transition privately or through the HSE? What are attitudes like in with hospital staff towards transgender people?

What do you think of the media's portrayal of transgender people?

Sorry, load of questions just came at once

MrWalsh · 04-03-2015 5:41pm

Cool!

When did you first know that you were transgender?

Im close in age to you, and I only heard about or understood what transgender was when I was in my late teens/early twenties. Im am still confused about some aspects today. For instance, I watched a documentary recently about a UK man who had a Thai girlfriend - but although she was extremely feminine and seemed to identify as a woman, she still had her male equipment and from what I could tell she had no intention of having it removed. Im not even sure if that falls into the transgender definition!

Another thing that I have wondered about is this:
If you were a straight man before you became a woman, are you now a lesbian woman - does the label of your sexuality change with gender? How are sexuality and gender related - if at all?

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 5:52pm

ScienceNerd wrote: »

First, thank you for for doing the AMA, really looking forward to what insights you can give us.

Thank you - I'm looking forward to seeing the kinds of questions I get asked!

You've obviously put yourself somewhat in the public eye to stand up for your rights, and transgender rights in general (and I say fair play to you). Did you worry this could make you a target for abuse?

Yes.

The good news from my point of view is that I "pass" quite well (i.e. my natural features, plus estrogen, make me look quite feminine). And the other good news is that I had previous experience which taught me that having your picture in the papers or your face on the TV doesn't mean that you suddenly get stopped in the street.

I was on Vincent Browne People's debate last year, where I got to say a few words about marriage equality. Out of that, only one person who didn't know me said anything to me about it (a clerk in the post office!).

But I guess I've decided that transition has given me a new lease on life. If it ends up costing me my life (the extreme worst-case scenario) through standing up for myself, then I still had a few years that I would not have had if I didn't stand up for myself.

Have you seen anyone do a complete u-turn as to their opinion on transgender folk? i.e. go from hating/denying it's real to acceptance?

I've read stories on reddit and the like. But in my personal life I can't say I have.

With the exception of the transphobic minority, I think people in general *want to* accept me and treat me like everyone else. But they don't "get it" - they don't understand why I'd do something so radical like transition - and that's scary for them.

Did you transition privately or through the HSE?

A mixture.

Medical transition (and there are more than one "type" of transition - there is also e.g. legal transition, and the big one is social transition) is a life-long thing. I will be taking estrogen tablets for the rest of my life. I may yet be getting breast augmentation (I'm on the fence about it).

What are attitudes like in with hospital staff towards transgender people?

Varied, but I think it's gotten a lot better since I started transition. The first GP I went to didn't even know what "transgender" meant. Having said that, the HSE's trans-specific healthcare is dreadful in terms of how they treat us (though it's good in the sense that you can get everything except for free (though you have to pay for hormones like any other medicine) if you try hard enough and shout hard enough and have the patience of a galaxy of saints).

What do you think of the media's portrayal of transgender people?

The best portrayals are usually at least a bit disrespectful on some level. The average portrayal is dreadful, horrific, disgusting, despicable, and causes untold suffering and death in the transgender community.

It's one of the reasons why I'm glad I've discovered a talent for doing media stuff.

In my case, media portrayals of transgender people is undoubtedly one of the reasons why I ended up suffering gender dysphoria for as long as I did. Whenever the idea came into my mind that I might be transgender, I said to myself "but I'm not like those transgender people you see in the media!". :mad:

Sorry, load of questions just came at once

Thank you for them!

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 6:05pm

MrWalsh wrote: »

When did you first know that you were transgender?

It depends on what standard of "knowing" you are talking about.

My first experience of typical transgender behaviour that I can remember was when I was 9. I was looking at a yearbook, and I fell in love with a jumper-dress (something I now wouldn't be seen dead in!

). I was dreadfully conflicted about my feelings, as I knew it was something I "shouldn't" be doing or wanting to do.

My first time actually cross-dressing was not long after I left home. Again I was dreadfully conflicted about it. I then did what I now know to be typical transgender behaviour - I would spend maybe a few weeks cross-dressing in private, then get disgusted with the whole thing, and throw out all my clothes, only to buy a new set again some months later! (It's called "purging").

So that conflict continued until I was 39, when eventually I decided "enough is enough - I'm going to have to find a healthier way of expressing what is clearly an intrinsic part of me - I'm transvestite". So, I went socialising on the transgender scene in Dublin, and I quickly (and to my shock and horror) discovered I had more in common with those who were transitioning than those who were transvestites and cross-dressers.

It took me another 6 months of extreme soul-searching, and great fear, to go "I'm transgender, and I need to transition".

Im close in age to you, and I only heard about or understood what transgender was when I was in my late teens/early twenties. Im am still confused about some aspects today. For instance, I watched a documentary recently about a UK man who had a Thai girlfriend - but although she was extremely feminine and seemed to identify as a woman, she still had her male equipment and from what I could tell she had no intention of having it removed. Im not even sure if that falls into the transgender definition!

There isn't one way of being transgender. The definition of transgender that I use is "someone whose gender expression and/or gender identity is different to the sex assigned to them at birth". Under that definition, that woman most certainly is transgender.

Here's the thing. When I popped out of my mother, there was a penis between my legs. But I was still born a transgender girl. The key idea that the transgender community is trying to get across is "your gender identity is *not* determined by what's between your legs".

Another thing that I have wondered about is this:
If you were a straight man before you became a woman, are you now a lesbian woman - does the label of your sexuality change with gender? How are sexuality and gender related - if at all?

First of all - I did not "become a woman". I was born a transgender girl. I've always been a transgender female. What I've done of late is just to express it.

Also, gender identity and sexuality are completely separate and independent things. Your gender identity is who you are, and your sexuality is who you sleep with. I would guess that about a third of transgender people are straight, about a third are homosexual, and about a third are bi/pan/queer/...

But yes it's an interesting question in terms of labels. In general, transgender people use the label for sexuality which is appropriate for our gender identity. So a transgender woman (like myself) would be in a lesbian relationship with a woman.

GLaDOS · 04-03-2015 6:10pm

Thank you for your answers

deirdre_dub wrote: »

The best portrayals are usually at least a bit disrespectful on some level. The average portrayal is dreadful, horrific, disgusting, despicable, and causes untold suffering and death in the transgender community.

It's one of the reasons why I'm glad I've discovered a talent for doing media stuff.

In my case, media portrayals of transgender people is undoubtedly one of the reasons why I ended up suffering gender dysphoria for as long as I did. Whenever the idea came into my mind that I might be transgender, I said to myself "but I'm not like those transgender people you see in the media!". :mad:

Just as a follow up to this, I don't know if you are aware of the relatively well know (and very long running) webcomic Questionable Content. It has a trans character who is part of the main cast and is probably the most respectful portrayal of a trans person I have seen.

Obviously web comics and popular media like tv, film etc are a world apart though.

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 6:16pm

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Just as a follow up to this, I don't know if you are aware of the relatively well know (and very long running) webcomic Questionable Content. It has a trans character who is part of the main cast and is probably the most respectful portrayal of a trans person I have seen.

Obviously web comics and popular media like tv, film etc are a world apart though.

Yes - when the media actually engages with transgender people, the results are usually quite respectful. But that's very very rare at the moment.

Having said that, the media has a particular fascination with people who are just starting transition. Starting transition is an extremely heady time, and it's very hard to have a proper conversation about being transgender when transition has taken over your life and when you are going through a second puberty. I have a transgender "mother" who has said to me that I'm only just about reaching the cusp of becoming a trans "adult" myself, and I believe her. Apparently it takes about 5 - 7 years to really settle down.

megaten · 04-03-2015 6:18pm

Have you ever read wandering son?

Orim · 04-03-2015 6:23pm

Hey deirdre, thanks for doing this.

I read recently, on here in fact, that Ireland was a relatively decent place for transgender people. Would you say this is true? Is it a more recent acceptance? Is there anywhere you think would've been a better place to transition.

Also I was reading an article recently about a person going through a female to male transition. The general gist of the article is that it is less accepted than male to female. Is there any truth to this, in your experience?

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 6:23pm

megaten wrote: »

Have you ever read wandering son?

Nope.

But there is an interesting phenomenon in the transgender community. A ridiculous number of transgender women work in I.T. (like myself), and a ridiculous number of us are nerds - and comic books are one of the big nerdiness we seem to have. So good respectful proper transgender portrayals are creeping into the comic world.

Greenmachine · 04-03-2015 6:24pm

Where does your sexuality come in all of this. I have met various transgender people, and cross-dressers from working on 2nd hand clothing stores, for example, an individual may be born male, but identify as a lesbian woman.
Do you think the physical transformation is fully necessary, for people to recognize, your gender identity, particularly when it come to intimate personal relationships.
Have you suffered any personal abuse, was this worse than your own struggle with your identity before you spend time in the lgbt community.

spurious · 04-03-2015 6:27pm

Have you seen the TV series 'Transparent'?

Something a character says echoes something you said earlier, when people asked him when he started dressing up as a woman and he replied all his life he had been dressing up as a man.
It's a very good series. If you haven't seen it, you should.

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 6:32pm

Orim wrote: »

I read recently, on here in fact, that Ireland was a relatively decent place for transgender people. Would you say this is true?

Overall I'd say Ireland is in the top third in Europe. And Europe is one of the better continents on which to be transgender.

Is it a more recent acceptance?

My sense is that Irish people have always had a soft spot for people that you might describe as "kooky". But there has definitely been a marked improvement in the past 5 years that I've been in transition.

Is there anywhere you think would've been a better place to transition.

Thailand. Spain. Canada. California. London. And believe it or not - Iran has had legal gender recognition for some time (and we still don't have it here!). Having said that, I don't think Iran and I would work for other reasons...

Also I was reading an article recently about a person going through a female to male transition. The general gist of the article is that it is less accepted than male to female. Is there any truth to this, in your experience?

Both "directions" experience discrimination, hatred, lack of acceptance, discrimination etc.

There are significant differences in the MtF and FtM experiences in general. One major difference is that testosterone makes your voice break, but estrogen doesn't un-break it, which leaves MtF people like me having to either work on our voice or just go out into the world with a big booming male voice. FtM people just have to spend a little time on testosterone and their voice breaks.

Also, there is far more social focus on the MtF experience than on the FtM experience. That's a double-edged sword, with plusses and minuses for both.

Overall - I've never gotten into a "pissing contest" with any of my FtM friends to see which of us have suffered the most, and I don't care to. It's not easy to transition regardless of the direction.

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 6:44pm

Greenmachine wrote: »

Where does your sexuality come in all of this. I have met various transgender people, and cross-dressers from working on 2nd hand clothing stores, for example, an individual may be born male, but identify as a lesbian woman.

Well, I was born a transgender girl. As for my sexuality - when I mistakenly believed I was male, I saw myself as straight. However, when I discovered that I am actually transgender female, I suddenly "understood" gender (it had been a mystery to me up to then), and I found that, in fact, I have a sexual attraction to men. I now understand that I'm bisexual, and I've slept with both men and women since starting transition.

But sexuality and gender identity are two completely separate independent things. Gender identity is who you are, and sexuality is who you sleep with.

Do you think the physical transformation is fully necessary, for people to recognize, your gender identity, particularly when it come to intimate personal relationships.

Transition is about one intimate relationship and one intimate relationship only - namely my relationship with me.

In my case, I started transition because I believed that the answer to your first question (other people recognising my gender identity) was "yes". But I quickly found that there was another reason for me to transition. I find that I feel so much better - particularly in terms of how my head/brain feels - on estrogen than on testosterone. I believe there is a physical and physiological component to me being transgender - I have a body which, in spite of (probably) having the Y chromosome, still needs estrogen to function properly.

That's my experience. Others have different experiences.

Your second question was about the need for transition in terms of intimate relationships with other people. It's hard for anyone to have an intimate relationship with other people when your relationship with yourself is broken, and that is why transition is about the relationship you have with yourself. Other people come later.

Have you suffered any personal abuse, was this worse than your own struggle with your identity before you spend time in the lgbt community.

I most certainly have suffered personal abuse.

Last year, I had a bottle thrown at me in broad daylight by some kids who were hiding behind a bush. I've been shouted at in shops.

But it's rare, and my struggle with my identity was most definitely worse. That struggle was well on the way towards killing me.

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 6:47pm

spurious wrote: »

Have you seen the TV series 'Transparent'?

Nope, and I have no intention of seeing it.

Something a character says echoes something you said earlier, when people asked him when he started dressing up as a woman and he replied all his life he had been dressing up as a man.

Or all her life she had been dressing up as a man.

And that is precisely what it felt like - it felt like I was doing drag. I was dreadfully uncomfortable presenting as male (and not understanding why). And when I discovered why, it just became unbearable to have to present as male.

It's a very good series. If you haven't seen it, you should.

A lot of people have said that. I'm dreadfully disappointed that they didn't cast a transgender actor in the role. But I don't need to see a TV series about another person's struggle with their gender identity - I have my hands full with the flesh-and-blood people in my life who are struggling

AirBiscuit · 04-03-2015 6:49pm

Do you play Wordament? I think I've seen your name in the leaderboards a few times.

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 6:51pm

AirBiscuit wrote: »

Do you play Wordament? I think I've seen your name in the leaderboards a few times.

Nope. Whoever it is - they are an imposter

Slutmonkey57b · 04-03-2015 7:02pm

Hi there

I'm not entirely sure how to word this question, so I'll probably have to bumble into it and hope. One of the sticking points with transgender acceptance seems to be a hostility towards the idea of "I was born in the wrong body, I'm supposed to be a different gender". It's obviously impossible for someone who isn't transgender to understand how it feels to grow up, go through puberty and go through all those experiences. Equally, it seems obvious that the experiences of a trans person will be fundamentally different to the experiences of someone who was born into one gender and never experiences any desire/need/requirement to change.

As part of your transition, have you felt "I'm becoming a woman", or "I'm sorting out being a trans woman"? Do you feel there's a significant difference?

In a distant future, do you envision a world with genders which recognise male/female/trans, or one where the genders are still male/female, and trans folk are in a position to (or are forced to) remain behind the gender they've identified with "invisibly"?

Hope that makes sense.

yellowlabrador · 04-03-2015 7:05pm

I recently had a disagreement with an otherwise liberal friend. We were talking about teenagers who have gender reassignment. She felt that they should wait until proper adulthood before taking such a radical step. I felt that, with more openness and knowledge, young people can more easily express their true desires and feelings and should be helped as soon as possible. I also talked about intersex children, who are often assigned a sex at birth, in the past without consultation of the parents and without genetic testing to find out the true story. She had never heard of intersex people.
Is there now more openness about this? It's after all more common than people realise.
There are some lovely video blogs on Youtube of young people going through the process.

AlanS181824 · 04-03-2015 7:11pm

I can't think of many major questions which is weird for me 'cos usually I'm full of them!:pac:

Well first off I'd like to tell ya how brave you are for doing this, you're an inspiration to us all, not just LGBTQI people.

I have a question which is a bit silly (to me) but I'll ask it anyway.

What do you think of Facebook having multiple gender titles to choose from, I believe there's just short of 60, everything from cis, genderqueer to fill in the blank.

What about national IDs would you prefer to have Male/Female/Other only on it or go the Facebook route and have multiple possible choices.

Sorry if it's a stupid question and thanks again!

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 7:13pm

Greenmachine wrote: »

Where does your sexuality come in all of this. I have met various transgender people, and cross-dressers from working on 2nd hand clothing stores, for example, an individual may be born male, but identify as a lesbian woman.

Reviewing my answer, I might not have answered your question.

There are some key concepts you need to get, and then the answer will become self-evident.

The first key concept is that what's between your legs doesn't determine your gender identity. For the vast majority of people, their gender identity (who they are in the deepest recesses of their sense of self) is the gender suggested by what's between their legs. But that's not the case for transgender people. So when it comes to transgender people, you have to completely forget about what's between our legs - it's irrelevant to gender identity.

The second key concept is that there are many ways in which people have gender, but that on a personal level, the most important of those by far is gender identity. In my case, I have a male chromosomal gender, a mixed biological gender, a female genital gender, a male birth cert (still waiting for gender recognition!), a female legal gender, female gender expression, and a female gender identity. Of all those ways I have gender, the one that's most important is that my gender identity is female.

And the third key concept is that it appears your gender identity is something you are born with. There have been various attempts to mess with the gender identity of young babies as they grow up, which have failed. So when I was born, I was born with a male chromosomal gender, a male biological gender, a male genital gender, a male birth cert, a male legal gender, male gender expression (imposed on me), and a female gender identity.

When you add the second and third key concepts, what happens is that I was not born male - I was born female, albeit transgender female.

And when you add the first and second key concepts, what happens is that when I am in a relationship with a woman, it's a lesbian relationship, regardless of what's between my legs, as I'm a female in a relationship with another female.

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 7:27pm

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure how to word this question, so I'll probably have to bumble into it and hope. One of the sticking points with transgender acceptance seems to be a hostility towards the idea of "I was born in the wrong body, I'm supposed to be a different gender". It's obviously impossible for someone who isn't transgender to understand how it feels to grow up, go through puberty and go through all those experiences. Equally, it seems obvious that the experiences of a trans person will be fundamentally different to the experiences of someone who was born into one gender and never experiences any desire/need/requirement to change.

As part of your transition, have you felt "I'm becoming a woman", or "I'm sorting out being a trans woman"? Do you feel there's a significant difference?

Definitely "I'm sorting out the consequences of the recently-discovered fact that I was born a transgender female". And there is a significant difference.

I hate the expression "I was born into the wrong body". I understand where that expression came from - it was used by transgender people to try and describe an experience that's ridiculously difficult to describe.

Here's what I believe, and there is a degree of scientific evidence to back this up. Babies are constantly being born with something "wrong" with them. Yet we, as a society, seem to have this notion that mother nature always gets the gender of babies perfectly correct each and every time. She doesn't! I believe that I was born with a body which produced a massive excess of testosterone over estrogen, yet my organs need estrogen much more than testosterone. In particular, my brain needs estrogen (and I can tell you from first hand experience that being on testosterone is a very different experience than being on estrogen - and the latter most decidedly feels much better for me - and female-to-male trans people will tell you that testosterone feels much better for them).

I don't take estrogen because I want breasts - I take estrogen because I've discovered that I need it in order to function!!! There is something about my body (likely my brain) that most definitely needs estrogen.

So I don't see myself as "becoming a woman" at all. I've always been a woman in some sense or other, in that I've always had a body which properly runs on estrogen.

In a distant future, do you envision a world with genders which recognise male/female/trans, or one where the genders are still male/female, and trans folk are in a position to (or are forced to) remain behind the gender they've identified with "invisibly"?

There isn't one way to be transgender. In my case, I'm female, I've happily changed my documentation to say so, and I'll (eventually!) be changing my birth cert. Socially I tell people I'm female, though I don't nervously hide that I'm also transgender.

But there are transgender friends of mine for whom neither "male" nor "female" fits. In Australia and a few other places, they can get gender "X" on their documentation, and I know a few people who would like to see gender "X" introduced into our gender recognition legislation (currently being discussed in the Oireachtas - though it's unlikely to happen).

I hope that answers your question.

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 7:33pm

yellowlabrador wrote: »

We were talking about teenagers who have gender reassignment.

That actually doesn't happen. What the media calls "teenage sex change" is actually nothing more than puberty-blocking drugs. The idea of these drugs is that they prevent puberty from progressing. When you come off the drugs, puberty proceeds naturally. However, if in the mean time you discover that you need to transition, the fact that you've been on those drugs makes your medical transition an awful lot easier and better and safer.

She felt that they should wait until proper adulthood before taking such a radical step. I felt that, with more openness and knowledge, young people can more easily express their true desires and feelings and should be helped as soon as possible.

You are both right.

It is a massive radical step. It's a bigger thing than I thought it was going to be. Having said that, if the young person needs to transition, then they need to transition - end of discussion.

I also talked about intersex children, who are often assigned a sex at birth, in the past without consultation of the parents and without genetic testing to find out the true story. She had never heard of intersex people.
Is there now more openness about this? It's after all more common than people realise.

I know some intersex people - including intersex people whose intersex condition was "treated" at birth (and, obviously, since I know them through the transgender scene, the treatment was a failure).

I think there is more openness and knowledge about these issues now. And I hope that the barbaric practice of "treating" intersex babies has come / is coming to a stop.

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 7:41pm

AlanS181824 wrote: »

Well first off I'd like to tell ya how brave you are for doing this, you're an inspiration to us all, not just LGBTQI people.

Thanks. I'd encourage everyone to give themselves the freedom to express their inner selves.

I have a question which is a bit silly (to me) but I'll ask it anyway.

The only silly question is the one that was asking to be asked, but wasn't.

What do you think of Facebook having multiple gender titles to choose from, I believe there's just short of 60, everything from cis, genderqueer to fill in the blank.

A very positive move. Personally my facebook page is going to remain "female", but this move raises awareness, and there are lots of my friends who are delighted to be able to tell their facebook contacts about their true experience of gender.

What about national IDs would you prefer to have Male/Female/Other only on it or go the Facebook route and have multiple possible choices.

I think the question can be asked - why do we need gender on our national IDs at all? What purpose does it serve? It seems to me that the only purpose it can serve is to enable gender discrimination or discrimination on the basis of sexuality.

In Thailand, when someone speaks to you, apparently you never ever call anyone "sir", "ma'am" until they themself calls themselves "sir" or "ma'am" in their speech with you. In other words - gender is a personal experience which each individual has and each individual should be permitted to express in whatever way is appropriate to them and which should be respected by everyone else. There really is no need for it to be a legal thing too.

AlteredStates · 04-03-2015 8:20pm

I look at things more from a higher/souls perspective so not sure if this will reasonate with you but here goes...

Do you think that perhaps the spiritual reason for tg is that you would have had alot of previous incarnations as a woman and this may be your first incarnation as a man hence why you understand and feel more natural as a woman? Eg encoded into your dna, female historical experiences imprinted into soul etc..

Also your sexual preferences is bi and if a new male soul, could that be an indicator that previously you like men as you were always female but your born physical gender in this lifetime is male which higher probability of liking female so sexuality in this lifetime has been both but naturally more liking female?

Whats your view on this?

MrWalsh · 04-03-2015 8:22pm

You've just given me the epiphany that our words for sexuality are wrong! They are based on a comparison with our gender.

So a straight man likes women.
A lesbian woman likes women.

But surely we should just have one word for someone who likes women regardless of gender?

So a "woman liking" man likes women.
A "woman liking" woman likes women.

Then trans people wouldn't have to relabel their sexuality, less confusion all round!

I wonder if other languages have a similar issue?

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 8:30pm

AlteredStates wrote: »

Do you think that perhaps the spiritual reason for tg is that you would have had alot of previous incarnations as a woman and this may be your first incarnation as a man hence why you understand and feel more natural as a woman? Eg encoded into your dna, female historical experiences imprinted into soul etc..

Also your sexual preferences is bi and if a new male soul, could that be an indicator that previously you like men as you were always female but your born physical gender in this lifetime is male which higher probability of liking female so sexuality in this lifetime has been both but naturally more liking female?

Whats your view on this?

I honestly don't know - I'm not even sure I'd believe in reincarnation.

My world view simply states that the world is extremely diverse, and nothing is either-or, nothing is this-or-that, and that diversity is good and necessary to our survival.

I've been asked - "would you like to see science cure gender dysphoria in such a way that eliminates the need for transition". There are two reasons why I say "no". The first is that in order for science to do that, we would have to invent a way of changing people's gender identity, and the implications of such an invention (particularly if it were used as a weapon) are dreadful.

But the other reason why I say "no" is because I'd hate to live in a world without transgender people. I'd hate to lose that aspect of diversity. And if I have to pay the price in order to live in that world, so be it.

deirdre_dub · 04-03-2015 8:32pm

MrWalsh wrote: »

You've just given me the epiphany that our words for sexuality are wrong! They are based on a comparison with our gender.

So a straight man likes women.
A lesbian woman likes women.

But surely we should just have one word for someone who likes women regardless of gender?

Gynephilic

Way ahead of ya!

And liking of men is called - you guessed it - androphilic.

MrWalsh · 04-03-2015 8:41pm

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Gynephilic

Way ahead of ya!

And liking of men is called - you guessed it - androphilic.

I do love to be educated!

gozunda · 04-03-2015 8:47pm

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Reviewing my answer, I might not have answered your question.

There are some key concepts you need to get, and then the answer will become self-evident.

The first key concept is that what's between your legs doesn't determine your gender identity. For the vast majority of people, their gender identity (who they are in the deepest recesses of their sense of self) is the gender suggested by what's between their legs. But that's not the case for transgender people. So when it comes to transgender people, you have to completely forget about what's between our legs - it's irrelevant to gender identity.

The second key concept is that there are many ways in which people have gender, but that on a personal level, the most important of those by far is gender identity. In my case, I have a male chromosomal gender, a mixed biological gender, a female genital gender, a male birth cert (still waiting for gender recognition!), a female legal gender, female gender expression, and a female gender identity. Of all those ways I have gender, the one that's most important is that my gender identity is female.

And the third key concept is that it appears your gender identity is something you are born with. There have been various attempts to mess with the gender identity of young babies as they grow up, which have failed. So when I was born, I was born with a male chromosomal gender, a male biological gender, a male genital gender, a male birth cert, a male legal gender, male gender expression (imposed on me), and a female gender identity.

When you add the second and third key concepts, what happens is that I was not born male - I was born female, albeit transgender female.

And when you add the first and second key concepts, what happens is that when I am in a relationship with a woman, it's a lesbian relationship, regardless of what's between my legs, as I'm a female in a relationship with another female.

I am correct in understanding that this is where the concept of sis gender derives?

Vojera · 04-03-2015 9:06pm

I'm not really sure how to phrase what I want to say, so bear with me.

Within the LGB community there can be a bit of anger from some people towards others who don't "conform" to wider societal ideals (for example, the queer community tends to be more open about the existence of polyamory, kink etc.) because they're afraid that if we're not all "normal" then we won't be accepted by society in general.

Is there a similar feeling in the trans community towards those who don't "pass" as well, or those who are genderqueer, etc? And is there ever a superiority complex from people who've "completed" their transitions over those who decide that they don't need surgery to feel comfortable in their bodies?

orthsquel · 04-03-2015 9:51pm

You've given some excellent responses Deirdre, particularly as one response was to a question I had a similar question to ask!

If I understood correctly your birth cert is still in your birth identity including in a male name... I assume that what while you have legal recognition as a female, your passport is still in the male identity? Have I that correct? Has it prevented you from travelling while you are in transition (outside EU for example), or if you have travelled regardless as to which identity is on your passport (if that isn't relevant or where I am wrong), do you get much hassle from passport control when entering a country?

Also, given that it was your late 30s you discovered you are indeed transgender (as outlined in one of your first responses) do you regret not realising it sooner in your life, or is this actually for you, the "right time" in your life to be dealing with it? I'm sure there's no "right time" as such but would it have been better for you personally to have realised all this when you were younger, would it have made much difference in your quality of life, general happiness?

1moreyr · 04-03-2015 10:22pm

Hi Deirdre, great to talk to you. A couple of years ago a friend of mine was in a psychiatric ward and there was a person there who was about to transition from male to female and was explaining the lengthy psychiatric evaluation that is required before surgery. Is this still the case? This psychiatric ward was pretty horrific and I was appalled that a stay there was a requirement.

Also you mentioned Iran? I am not sure if I have this right but when I was researching a paper for college recently I came across a human rights website that was criticizing Iran for the forced gender reassignment that gay men had to undergo. My understanding of it was that it was seen as a cure for homosexuality and these men had no choice???

deirdre_dub · 05-03-2015 2:02am

gozunda wrote: »

I am correct in understanding that this is where the concept of sis gender derives?

Cisgender is nothing other than the opposite of transgender.

Cis is a latin prefix meaning "on the same side of". Trans is a latin prefix meaning "on the other side of". So cisgender is the literal opposite of transgender - nothing more, nothing less.

deirdre_dub · 05-03-2015 2:18am

Vojera wrote: »

Within the LGB community there can be a bit of anger from some people towards others who don't "conform" to wider societal ideals (for example, the queer community tends to be more open about the existence of polyamory, kink etc.) because they're afraid that if we're not all "normal" then we won't be accepted by society in general.

Is there a similar feeling in the trans community towards those who don't "pass" as well, or those who are genderqueer, etc? And is there ever a superiority complex from people who've "completed" their transitions over those who decide that they don't need surgery to feel comfortable in their bodies?

Yes, unfortunately.

The "hierarchy" in some quarters in the transgender "community" really angers me sometimes. In that hierarchy, I'm towards the "top" as a transitioning transgender woman, and cross-dressers are towards the "bottom". And those who don't need surgery can be seen by some as "pretenders". It really sickens me.

We are all people - in particular, we are all people who break the gender binary - people who say that our need to express ourselves is more important than the social expectations imposed on us. As far as I am concerned, anyone who does that, in whatever measure, is an important ally, not to mention a courageous and beautiful person.

There can be particular tensions with drag queens - as drag queens tend to be quite visible, and their experience of gender bears no resemblance to mine. But as far as I am concerned, they have as much right to express who they are as I have to express who I am, and their greater visibility and their different experience of gender is something that I need to take on board as a call to arms to make myself more visible.

deirdre_dub · 05-03-2015 2:31am

orthsquel wrote: »

If I understood correctly your birth cert is still in your birth identity including in a male name... I assume that what while you have legal recognition as a female, your passport is still in the male identity? Have I that correct?

Nope! I'm happy to report that my passport has "Gender: F" on it.

I had to present myself to the passport office, at a particular booth, with a letter from my endocrinologist, and my deed poll, in order to get that passport.

Has it prevented you from travelling while you are in transition (outside EU for example), or if you have travelled regardless as to which identity is on your passport (if that isn't relevant or where I am wrong), do you get much hassle from passport control when entering a country?

I got a bit of hassle when I was returning home from Canada a few years ago.

The story is - my flight to Dublin was delayed. I was sent to a hotel. At that stage, my beard was beginning to show itself, so I had to ask the hotel staff if they had a razor (as I had my own razor in my checked luggage). They did, but I ended up hacking my face to pieces with it.

When I returned to the airport the following morning, I had a hacked face, and the tiredness meant that my male voice was beginning to re-assert itself. Anyway, I had my dilator (a medical device used to keep my neo-vagina open, which I have to use twice a week) in my hand luggage (it costs something like EUR 200). The customs inspector wanted to know what it was, so I told him. He said he had to ask his supervisor if I was allowed to carry it on the airplane (and I didn't have any idea what the hell I was going to do if the supervisor said "no").

The customs inspector came back, and said "yes, sir, you can take that on board with you" :mad:

But that's the only bad experience I've had while travelling. I've heard of much worse - a British comedian trans woman was sent to a male prison from that same airport when it was discovered that she had previously out-stayed a visa.

Also, given that it was your late 30s you discovered you are indeed transgender (as outlined in one of your first responses) do you regret not realising it sooner in your life, or is this actually for you, the "right time" in your life to be dealing with it? I'm sure there's no "right time" as such but would it have been better for you personally to have realised all this when you were younger, would it have made much difference in your quality of life, general happiness?

Yes - I wish I had transitioned sooner! It would have made a *HUGE* difference to my quality of life.

But I was probably not psychologically ready for it.

deirdre_dub · 05-03-2015 2:34am

1moreyr wrote: »

Hi Deirdre, great to talk to you. A couple of years ago a friend of mine was in a psychiatric ward and there was a person there who was about to transition from male to female and was explaining the lengthy psychiatric evaluation that is required before surgery. Is this still the case?

Oh yes!

If I had gotten surgery with the HSE, I would have ended up with 5 independent diagnoses of "gender identity disorder". As it was - going to Thailand - paying for it myself - I ended up with "only" 4. :mad:

Also you mentioned Iran? I am not sure if I have this right but when I was researching a paper for college recently I came across a human rights website that was criticizing Iran for the forced gender reassignment that gay men had to undergo. My understanding of it was that it was seen as a cure for homosexuality and these men had no choice???

Yes - that is the other side of Iran's official acceptance of transgender people, and it is dreadfully wrong.

Vojera · 05-03-2015 10:14am

I've another question, if you don't mind. Do you feel that trans rights have been done a disservice by the way that T has been stuck on the end of LGB? After all, sexuality and gender are not the same thing. Do you think groups claiming to be LGBT-representative put enough emphasis on the trans part or do they just pay lip service to it while groups like TENI do all the heavy lifting?

deirdre_dub · 05-03-2015 1:24pm

Vojera wrote: »

I've another question, if you don't mind. Do you feel that trans rights have been done a disservice by the way that T has been stuck on the end of LGB? After all, sexuality and gender are not the same thing.

That is true - sexuality and gender are completely independent. However, the way that sexual and gender minorities are treated by society have too much in common for LGB and T people to not collaborate.

One area of current topical collaboration is marriage equality. The gender recognition legislation currently working its way through the system will require married transgender people whose marriage survived transition to choose between their marriage and getting their gender recognised. The Government has said that married transgender people must divorce before getting their gender recognised lest we create same-sex marriages. :eek: :mad:

There are all sorts of fault lines even within the LGB community. Bisexuals are constantly (and correctly) complaining of erasure and biphobia within the community. But there are people who see the big picture and who are trying to move things forward, both from within and in terms of social justice.

Do you think groups claiming to be LGBT-representative put enough emphasis on the trans part or do they just pay lip service to it while groups like TENI do all the heavy lifting?

5 years ago, I would have answered that question with a resounding "yes".

Today I think LGB organisations by and large are at least beginning to cop on. It helps that transgender issues are in fashion at the moment. I think it will be quite a while yet before LGB organisations will be doing heavy lifting without needing to collaborate with trans organisations in order to at least get feedback that they are doing it right.

deirdre_dub · 05-03-2015 1:33pm

deirdre_dub wrote: »

The Government has said that married transgender people must divorce before getting their gender recognised lest we create same-sex marriages. :eek: :mad:

... which means that as a bisexual transgender woman, I won't be getting my gender recognised until either marriage equality comes to transgender people, or until I find myself wanting to marry a man, because I'd like to be able to marry a woman should I find myself wanting to do so.

deirdre_dub · 05-03-2015 2:15pm

Since the issue of travel came up, if I may, I'll tell the story of my first time visiting relatives in Canada.

It was before I started medical transition, but after I started social transition. Naturally I presented as male for the journey to and from Canada, and I decided to use the liberalism in Canadian society to help my social transition by presenting as female at times when I was over there. (The relatives weren't involved in this - long story - I couldn't come out to them at the time - I've since done so, and they are all great).

I also decided to get travel insurance, and on the insurance form it asked about current medical conditions. At this stage I had 3 of those 4 independent diagnoses of Gender Identity Disorder that I mentioned above, so I decided to put that down on the form.

I can't remember how it happened, but I ended up in a phone call with an official from the travel insurance company. She was asking me about this thing "Gender Identity Disorder". I explained it - even using that horrid phrase "born in the wrong body (ugh)" - but she wasn't getting it. Eventually she gave up and said "you won't be covered for that in Canada"!

As one of my friends said - "whatever you do, don't go skiing in Canada in a dress"!

Transition can be really really funny at times.

nibtrix · 05-03-2015 2:28pm

I hope you don't mind me asking, but why do you want to get your birth cert changed?

You explained very clearly that despite being born with "a male chromosomal gender, a male biological gender, a male genital gender, a male birth cert, a male legal gender, male gender expression (imposed on me)" you had a female gender identity.

I understand what you are saying, but as you were born legally male, and your birth cert is a historical representation of that, I don't understand what good changing it would do? Are you requesting that it be completely changed to show "Gender: Female", or annotated to show that you were assigned the wrong gender at birth?

deirdre_dub · 05-03-2015 2:53pm

nibtrix wrote: »

I hope you don't mind me asking, but why do you want to get your birth cert changed?

Because I'm "outed" as transgender every time I use it. This most recently happened when I was getting my social welfare card. The social welfare clerk was on the computer, obviously struggling with something, asking me about my name, my maiden name, how to spell it etc. Eventually I copped that she was looking for my birth cert, so I had to tell her that Deirdre is not my birth name, and that I'm transgender, and all the rest of it. It was a very very uncomfortable experience for both of us.

You explained very clearly that despite being born with "a male chromosomal gender, a male biological gender, a male genital gender, a male birth cert, a male legal gender, male gender expression (imposed on me)" you had a female gender identity.

I understand what you are saying, but as you were born legally male, and your birth cert is a historical representation of that

The historical record is going to be kept by the Government - don't worry about that! It's just not going to be kept on my birth cert. The details are in the gender recognition legislation.

Look - I need for there to be a paper trail between Deirdre and the person I spent almost 40 years trying to be. "He" created an awful lot of things - leaving certs, degrees, legal contracts, earnings, taxes - that I need to be able to access. It is in everyone's interest - mine included - that the historical record be kept somewhere. But it's also in everyone's interest - mine included - that it only be accessed as necessary. And it's not necessary for that historical record to be accessed when I'm getting my social welfare card or my passport or anything else that the birth cert is used for.

I don't understand what good changing it would do?

I hope I've explained that.

Are you requesting that it be completely changed to show "Gender: Female", or annotated to show that you were assigned the wrong gender at birth?

I'm requesting that it be changed completely - there is no need whatsoever for it to contain details of an (understandable) mistake made by the doctor when he looked between my legs over 45 years ago.

nibtrix · 05-03-2015 2:58pm

Thanks Deirdre, great answer re the birth cert. I haven't needed my birth cert in so long that I didn't think of things like that.

Another quick question, how did you pick your new name? Is it in any way similar to the name you were given at birth, or is it just a name you liked? Did you enjoy picking out a new name?

MrWalsh · 05-03-2015 3:12pm

Actually your last response has made me think of a question.

I am married and generally use either my single surname or my married surname depending on situation. In work I still use my single surname because all of my academic stuff is in my single surname (even more recent qualifications because I wanted them all to have the same name). Its easy for me because legally I can switch between names as I wish.

How does this work for you? How is your degree related to who you now are? I suppose the issue exists for anyone who changes their forename by deed poll.

If youd been named an androgynous type name at birth, like Adrian, would you still have chosen a more "female" name when you transitioned?

deirdre_dub · 05-03-2015 3:19pm

nibtrix wrote: »

Thanks Deirdre, great answer re the birth cert. I haven't needed my birth cert in so long that I didn't think of things like that.

It's one of the many varied and interesting challenges of legal gender change

Another quick question, how did you pick your new name? Is it in any way similar to the name you were given at birth, or is it just a name you liked? Did you enjoy picking out a new name?

I'm unusual in that I put basically no thought into my new name. Most transgender people put quite a bit of thought it, and it's not unusual to hear transgender people changing their name more than once.

I was 39 years old, I had just decided to accept that I'm transvestite (as I thought at the time), and it was the night before my first night out on the transgender scene in Dublin. I was lying in bed about to fall asleep, when I thought to myself that whereas my birth name can be made into an androgynous name, to me it was a male name, and if I had a female name, what would it be? Remember that I thought I was transvestite - I didn't realise I was picking a name that would be my legal name for the rest of my life! Anyway, I rattled off a few names, "Deirdre" was one of them, I thought to myself "that's nice", and I fell asleep.

The following night, in the transgender club, I was asked for my name. I innocently gave the androgynous version of my birth name. I was asked "is that your male name or your female name"? I didn't actually realise that transvestites pick a female name for themselves, so I said "male name". I then remembered the previous night, and I said "my female name is Deirdre". "Well hello, Deirdre" was the response.

So less than 24 hours after thinking of the name, I was called "Deirdre" for the first time

Of course when I realised that I was transgender, and that I have a cousin with exactly the same name, I thought "I'd better change it". But at that stage, the name "Deirdre" had gained traction, and I'm a lazy bitch anyway

But if I had changed it, it would have been "Katherine", and it's a long (and lovely) story as to why. So I've compromised - "Katherine" is now my middle name

deirdre_dub · 05-03-2015 3:30pm

MrWalsh wrote: »

I am married and generally use either my single surname or my married surname depending on situation. In work I still use my single surname because all of my academic stuff is in my single surname (even more recent qualifications because I wanted them all to have the same name). Its easy for me because legally I can switch between names as I wish.

How does this work for you? How is your degree related to who you now are? I suppose the issue exists for anyone who changes their forename by deed poll.

There are two classes of documents that I need to change - those with my name, and those with my name and gender. When it comes to changing my gender on the latter documents, I usually just flash my passport at them (with its lovely "Gender: F" on it), and that's usually enough to get them to change it.

Changing my name - it depends. I recently ordered a copy of my leaving cert. I said on the order that I had changed my name, but when I got the cert it was still in my old name (and the letter in which it was sent to me was addressed to "him"

). So I now have to find out what the Dept. of Education require from me before they will change it.

My degree - I have to return the parchment I got at the time, with a copy of my deed poll, and they will give me a new parchment. But I believe other colleges have more difficult procedures than that.

In general, I find that if I just tell people the situation, they will change my name, though many will ask to see a copy of my deed poll.

One of the documents I had to change was my TV Licence. I rang the TV Licence people, and told them about my change of name. I got a welcome "that's no problem ma'am - but if I may ask you a personal question - why are you changing your name?". I decided to tell him

I could hear him squirming on the other end of the line :pac:

If youd been named an androgynous type name at birth, like Adrian, would you still have chosen a more "female" name when you transitioned?

I was actually using the androgynous version of my birth name. But for me it was a male name, so I changed it, as every time I heard it I saw "man" in my head.

scudzilla · 05-03-2015 3:33pm

What's your favourite type of cheese?

tailgunner · 05-03-2015 3:35pm

deirdre_dub wrote: »

... which means that as a bisexual transgender woman, I won't be getting my gender recognised until either marriage equality comes to transgender people, or until I find myself wanting to marry a man, because I'd like to be able to marry a woman should I find myself wanting to do so.

Hi Deirdre, could you elaborate on what you mean by marriage equality for transgender people?

I would have thought that as a transgender woman, you are currently able to marry a man. And (assuming the legislative changes go ahead) in the near future, you'll also be able to marry a woman. Surely this means that equality will thus exist for transgender people, regardless of their sexuality?

I hope I'm not missing something obvious...

Thanks for your answers so far by the way, really interesting and informative!

MrWalsh · 05-03-2015 3:38pm

The only transgender actress I am familiar with is the lady in Orange is the New Black. They did a little of her back story in the show and they actually used her identical twin brother to play her before transition (which was very useful that she had a twin!). It got me thinking about that whole "if an identical twin committed a crime and left DNA you couldnt prove which twin did it".

If you committed a crime and left some DNA behind would the police be looking for a man? Could you be the perfect criminal

deirdre_dub · 05-03-2015 4:11pm

scudzilla wrote: »

What's your favourite type of cheese?

I was in Wensleydale two years ago, and I love some of the things they do with their cheeses. If I remember correctly, the apricot, and the caramelised onion, were my two favorites. Yum.

Now Ye're Talking - To a Transgender Woman

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