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Gardai proposals to ban firearms

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    #1742
    hexosan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭hexosan


    Limerick Sovereigns wrote: »
    In the opinion of posters, is there any point in applying for a licence (not a renewal) for a Hammerli Xesse at the moment?

    In the absence of the old "approved pistols list" (I know, I know) can it now be legitimately refused under the clause that bans pistols that look like "law enforcement" pistols. Sorry but I can't find the relevant SI.

    Thanks in advance.

    If you satisfy the regulations and have a legitimate reason but are refused at the whim of the super what are your grounds for an appeal.


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    #1743
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    hexosan wrote: »
    If you satisfy the regulations and have a legitimate reason but are refused at the whim of the super what are your grounds for an appeal.
    How do you know it's at the whim of the super? You have to ask for his grounds for refusal in writing and pursue it from there (and seriously, you'll want professional legal advice and it will not be cheap).


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    #1744
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    hexosan wrote: »
    If you satisfy the regulations and have a legitimate reason but are refused at the whim of the super what are your grounds for an appeal.

    unfortunately , you don't decide the " legitimate reason" the super does and its part of the difficulties of the current legislation


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    #1745
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,955 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    For those who would like a word with IFA/Countryside about their comments on pistols and semi rifles

    countryside@ifa.ie
    Have emailed them telling them I am cancelling my IFA/Countryside insurance membership and am encouraging any individual and club who has it not to renew if this is their attitude to handguns and Semi rifles.Expressed my disgust at their ill informed and written,attempting to save their asses excuse of a submission too.:mad:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #1746
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,194 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    I have also emailed a letter of protest to them, and requested a call from a member of the executive to explain this disgrace full policy.


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    #1747
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Has anyone read this months ISD?Specifically the submission by IFA /countryside??
    Grizzly


    I didn't read the ISD article you are talking about as I don't have a copy of ISD to hand.

    What submission is it that you are talking about? Did they submit those comments to the Dail Committee or Justice Committee?


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    #1748
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,955 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Apprently yes that was in their submissions to the Dail and or Justice comittee.:mad:
    Have also emailed NARGC sports colation about this as well.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #1749
    wexfordman2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,543 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Has anyone read this months ISD?Specifically the submission by IFA /countryside??
    Talk abou tramping in in your big dirty boots and shoving both into your stupid gob!!!

    "There is no need for semi auto rifles as they have no sporting, target, or hunting value ."
    Pistols should be on a three year apprenticeship and stored at the ranges until you have shot for three years then you can store at home....
    Would someone tell these utter edjits that it is better to keep the gob shut if you dont know the full story and that there are more types of guns used here than farner murphys double barrel.While you are about it.Tell your members to go away and knock themselves out and buy a 60 euro gunsafe and stop giving criminals an opportunity to steal your guns and for AGS to hammer us all the time???
    Very annoyed!
    Grizzly

    I dont get that at all. It is illegal to use a pistol outside of your range, so why after three years are you suddenly trusted not to break the law ?

    And if you are not trusted to not break the law, then why would they give you a pistol licence in the first place.

    Seems like a mad proposal, or else someone just wanting to put words on paper and nothing else.


    TBH, I felt the whole approach overall was a bit disjointed and disorganised.

    There was no organised communication campaign by any of the organisations. When you suggest that a letter be sent to very member of a gun club to inform them, the response was that would cost money.

    When you raise issues like the item that the gardai wish to be able to refuse a licence based on crime levels, the general response was that that was not the most critical issue, whereas to my mind it was one of the most critical as it affected absolutely everyone.


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    #1750
    Wadi14
    Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Wadi14


    Limerick Sovereigns wrote: »
    In the opinion of posters, is there any point in applying for a licence (not a renewal) for a Hammerli Xesse at the moment?

    In the absence of the old "approved pistols list" (I know, I know) can it now be legitimately refused under the clause that bans pistols that look like "law enforcement" pistols. Sorry but I can't find the relevant SI.

    Thanks in advance.

    I got my Hammerli X-esse pistol licence granted just before Christmas, What I did prior to applying was ring the FO and see what the Super's view was, he wanted a non monitored alarm and a secure transit box, and a visit from the CPO and that's what he got.


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    #1751
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Apprently yes that was in their submissions to the Dail and or Justice comittee.:mad:
    Have also emailed NARGC sports colation about this as well.

    Well done, Griz.

    I won't pretend not to understand the mindset in the submissions, because I know and avoid the type regularly.

    Just to say, they are going to understand the philosophy of "united we stand" when Finian, Sean, Padraig and maybe another one or two get their way with gunsafes for shotguns lying in barns and around the yard.

    Time to stick together like never before, mostly because it's working for now.

    I will have 20.00 with anyone who thinks that these proposals are going anywhere before the election - the danger is after the election and boils down to the attitude of the new MoJE.


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    #1752
    Connemara Farmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭Connemara Farmer


    BoatMad wrote: »
    The IFA always looks after its own and has never acknowledge the rights of anyone else. The foolish are this that think it would do otherwise

    farmers are not our friends in this debate

    A few suits contribute to an article in a magazine and now all farmers are against you?

    Ehm, no.


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    #1753
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Connemara Farmer wrote: »
    A few suits contribute to an article in a magazine and now all farmers are against you?

    Ehm, no.


    Those few suits who represent farmers appear to be attempting to do a huge amount of damage to our sport.

    That doesn't impress me.


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    #1754
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,955 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Wouldn't have been too bad if it was just a magazine article.But those few suits went and submitted it to the govt body in charge of deciding what types of firearms might and might not be acceptable here in Ireland for another century!
    I really hope that one thing does come out of this that farmers shotguns come under the same requirements of gun safes.I see no reason why this segment of the shooting community should be exempt from legislation we are all subject to.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #1755
    Connemara Farmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭Connemara Farmer


    My entire point is, ye seem to think those same suits represent all farmers.

    That is far from the case.

    Most are with that particular organisation for the innsurance deal that comes along with membership. A case of minding the pennies and losing the pounds.

    Ye should branch out and read the F&F forum, the impression of two or three posts regarding farmers is dead wrong to be honest.


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    #1756
    clivej
    Registered Users Posts: 7,035 ✭✭✭clivej


    Des Crofton, National Director and Spokesperson for the Sports Coalition
    Formal, joined Shane Beatty on Kildare Today to discuss a complaint lodged with GSOC over misleading Garda firearm figures.

    http://kildaretoday.podomatic.com/entry/2015-03-02T06_12_30-08_00


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    #1757
    knockon
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭knockon


    I just purchased and read the ISD Magazine for March. Awful reading...and the two fingers to pistol and this ****e "Heavy calibre automatic centre fire rifles have no practical application in agriculture for vermin control, target or sport"

    The IFA Submission is extremely poorly written and by someone who is ill informed. The IFA is the body that represents farmers here. Maybe the farmers here who are supporters of the Sports Coalition could make their feelings known to Head Office?


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    #1758
    tikkahunter
    Registered Users Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭tikkahunter


    knockon wrote: »
    I just purchased and read the ISD Magazine for March. Awful reading...and the two fingers to pistol and this ****e "Heavy calibre automatic centre fire rifles have no practical application in agriculture for vermin control, target or sport"

    The IFA Submission is extremely poorly written and by someone who is ill informed. The IFA is the body that represents farmers here. Maybe the farmers here who are supporters of the Sports Coalition could make their feelings known to Head Office?
    A lot of lads that shoot have a IFA insurance policy for shooting and fishing,terrible terrible piece


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    #1759
    bpb101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭bpb101


    From Sports collision facebook



    Below link to the Sports Coalition Spokesperson podcast on Kildare Today this morning:
    http://kildaretoday.podomatic.com/…/2015-03-02T06_12_30-08_…

    edit: looks like i was beaten to it


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    #1760
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    I'd say the IFA piece was damaging, but I haven't bothered to read that Digest in a very long time. The submission might be bad, but I haven't seen it and the submissions are not subject to the FOI act (actually, where did people see the IFA submission?).

    All that said, some devil's advocacy here in the interests of calming the feck down and being reasonable.

    First off, we've all heard those IFA proposals before, they've been copied out of things that were said in the past by the current leaders of the sports coalition. So you'd have to add plagarism to the list of naughty things we'd be saying the IFA was guilty of.

    Secondly, why weren't the IFA on board? If the whole point of the coalition was to build an effective lobbying body, why wasn't talking to the single largest body in the shooting world at the top of the to-do list? The IFA's bigger in numbers, influence and manpower than the entire sports coalition and all of its constitutent bodies, it's a bit of an oversight.

    Thirdly, lads, put yourself in a farmers shoes for ten seconds and reread some of the things you've been saying on here for the last three months and ask yourself why they'd be on our side?
    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Where are guns more likely to be stolen and what types?? Farmers shotguns with virtually zero security.
    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Actually,this will affect them,if anyone has the smarts to point out that the most stolen firearms in the country are farmers shotguns that are still carelessly stored by the back door or left in the car.I dont see why they should be exempt from some basic security with their just as dangerous DBBL shotgun as my "deadlier" three shot semi auto.
    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    OTOH there is also a way we can actually "win" this by "losing".
    Its not going to sound pleasent to 99.9% of us out there,but it gives any politican the utter title of "toughning up the gun laws in Ireland so they are the strictest in Europe,blah,blah ,blah with the support of Irish gunowners."
    This will mean us agreeing to things like;.
    <snip>
    Gun safes become mandatory for ALL types of guns inc the farmers.
    yubabill1 wrote: »
    That was a compromise won by farmers, I believe.
    given rural burglaries, if that makes these proposals go away, then so be it IMHO.
    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    The fact that everyone else has to invest in alarms,gun safes and whatnot to get their liscenses,while the farmers gun can still in some cases stay in its traditional position behind the back door and it is "recommended" by AGS that gun is broken down when not in use if it is a single gun in the household is a bit much these days.
    If we can belive the reported statistics of stolen guns in this country,i dont think modular sporting rifles and handguns or restricted shotguns figure big in the stats.Its more nicked double barrels and single shot shotguns ,the most common of the farmer guns.:(
    Want to tighten up the law?Make this a level playing field on security in that everyone needs a gun safe.
    homerhop wrote: »
    Strider wrote: »
    If there was a grant in it for the IFA they'd have farmers writing submissions dawn till dusk :pac:
    It's bad enough the AGS making sweeping comments about us, it may come to it that we might just need these farmers before the end of this.
    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    If I was a gang boss <snip> I'd be more inclined to get them the most idiot proof leathl weapon possible for up close and personal work out there and that possibly Farmer Murphy will have left behind his back door with a box of shells.IOW a sawn off single or DBBL shotgun.
    yubabill1 wrote: »
    The obvious conclusion is to make the farmers buy gunsafes - that'll solve half the problem immediately
    yubabill1 wrote: »
    Mandatory gunsafes are one of our trump cards - the other side really don't need thousands of militant farmers running flocks sheep into garda stations, now do they?

    And I know it's not just been on here that stuff like that has been said.

    This is a bit of an own goal here lads. It's bad, and we could have done without it. But look at it with both eyes open. And it's still not the end of the world. The IFA can still alter its position.


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    #1761
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Sparks, I stand over everything I said: If the IFA want to bury their heads in the sand, don't they know their ass is sticking out?

    I called for unity in post #9 of this thread

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93024362&postcount=9

    and I still think it's a good idea.

    With the advice the IFA have got on this, judging by their submissions, they are going to need us, or else they are going to have to run sheep into the Dept. of Justice.

    I just loved it when Finian talked about guns laying around haysheds and around yards on Radio 1 - he walked himself into it. If the IFA want to take Finian on, they need people like us (the Gun Lobby).


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    #1762
    Connemara Farmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,975 ✭✭✭Connemara Farmer


    I asked a national IFA figure publicly about this and I got a private reply saying IFA countryside were supporting the gun clubs position.

    I'm not defending anyone, just relating the information.


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    #1763
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,955 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Well sorry if the truth hurts first off!!
    But the facts are there.I myself saw a neighbour four months ago have two shotguns and a rifle swiped because he had them parked exactly where I've said in all those examples.At the back door!!And [BTW his and my next door neighbour is the son of a former president of the IFA in the 1980s.]. They were told numerous times to move them or get a safe as there have been break ibs in our area and there are perputally local known "heads" up and down our road..
    I have personally dealt with three cases of seperations here in the last four years where it was a farming couple splitting up and the husband admitting he hadnrt touched his guns since he last liscensed them and he had them stored out in an outbuilding for the last three years since renewal!!So if thats my very limited personal experiance,how many more of this carry on is going on around the countryside??If the cap fits....

    We have the problem of farmer sucidides as well,again if we are taking our stats somwhat seriously on gun deaths,its the farming community that has the most access to firearms..

    Also what makes farmers suddenly exempt from rules that the rest of have to meticously obey when it comes to firearms?? A gun whether it is a single barrel or semi auto rifle is still leathl,just because you only "have one" doesnt make it any less dangerous if it is stolen or misused.Farmers have to obey plenty of laws regarding H&S,storing dangerous chemicals,machinery, animal husbandary,hygenie etc.So whats the big deal about storing a firearm securely??We are talking at most a 100 quid here on a once off purchase.Which is a fill of diesel for a tractor these days.

    In fact if anything this is skewed and biased legislation to one sector of the Irish community an as such could also be challanged in the courts as discriminitory.

    I'm not trying to bash farmers here ,as I am from a farming backround and part time farmer and know well enough what it involves,but FFS there is a problem here in this section and claiming there isnt and that they are being picked upon is just laughable and very childish.And if that was a response to my and others observations to try and stymie pistol and semi rifles...well thats just utter juvenile to the point of kinder garten logic and arguments and actions.

    Also how can they alter their position now??They have gone and handed in this submission to the comittee and /or the Dail as per this article in ISD.So now the biggest gun owning group in Ireland has effectively said to the Govt"No need for semi auto CF rifles and pistols should be stored in the most illogical and dangerous fashion possible."How are they going to retract that submission??Write another and demand an exemption to the submissions as they are the IFA?? If they back down and retract their position it makes them look like utter edjits too...

    Damage is done lads...There is no coming back from this one!! AGS/DOJ will be all over this saying "well if the biggest gun lobby in Ireland says they dont want assault rifles as they see no need for them...."

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #1764
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    yubabill1 wrote: »
    If the IFA want to take Finian on, they need people like us (the Gun Lobby).
    And now I have coffee coming out of my nose. The laugh wasn't really worth it to be honest.

    Lad, seriously, look at the size of the IFA and their budget and then compare that to us. Do it with a cold eye. They're more than capable of getting what they want on their own. Working with them could have been a major boost to us and a useful delegation to them; but saying they're unable to effect changes on their own is ignoring history.

    As I said above, they can still alter their position; but they have to see the value in doing so and "you can't do this without us" gets the response "have you read the SI at all in the last few years?". A better argument is needed.


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    #1765
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Sparks wrote: »
    And now I have coffee coming out of my nose. The laugh wasn't really worth it to be honest.

    Lad, seriously, look at the size of the IFA and their budget and then compare that to us. Do it with a cold eye. They're more than capable of getting what they want on their own. Working with them could have been a major boost to us and a useful delegation to them; but saying they're unable to effect changes on their own is ignoring history.

    .

    You forgot this bit

    "With the advice the IFA have got on this, judging by their submissions, they are going to need us, or else they are going to have to run sheep into the Dept. of Justice."

    I don't get the last paragraph of your post?


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    #1766
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    yubabill1 wrote: »
    I don't get the last paragraph of your post?
    The security standards SI has an exemption clause in it for farmers who have one shotgun. Everyone else, airguns on up, needs a gunsafe. We certainly didn't argue for that exemption. You can be darn sure the DoJ and AGS didn't either. So on the strength of that, I'd say IFA lobbying has proven somewhat effective in the past. That was my point.


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    #1767
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Sparks wrote: »
    The security standards SI has an exemption clause in it for farmers who have one shotgun. Everyone else, airguns on up, needs a gunsafe. We certainly didn't argue for that exemption. You can be darn sure the DoJ and AGS didn't either. So on the strength of that, I'd say IFA lobbying has proven somewhat effective in the past. That was my point.

    OK point taken on that.

    I think we're all agreed that it would be better for the "Gun Lobby" if the IFA were on board.

    Clearly, they either misunderstand these proposals or think they may be largely unaffected; of course, we know better - but it must be conceded that these proposals would affect hunters, target shooters more than farmers, generally.

    The "Gun Lobby" haven't done too badly so far, on their own IMHO.


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    #1768
    bluezulu49
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭bluezulu49


    I do not read the ISD but having seen the discussion here I downloaded the digital version of the magazine for March 2015. I don't know if it's a typo but the digital edition says:
    Heavy calibre automatic centre fire rifles have no practical application in agriculture for vermin control, target or sport.
    The word semi is not there.


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    #1769
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    yubabill1 wrote: »
    The "Gun Lobby" haven't done too badly so far, on their own IMHO.
    I'm not saying otherwise, I think they've done quite well. (Though I hate that term, because to me, lobbyists lobby. Our lot are engineers and nurses and teachers and civil servants and farmers and gardai and so forth. They talk to TDs on their own time. But that's by the by)

    What I'm saying is, I might not like what the IFA's saying but I don't think they're idiots, and if they thought supporting us was throwing their own people under a bus in favour of us, they'd have an actual duty to not do so (by the way, so does every other group involved in our sports, and in several cases it's a legally binding duty).

    It's up to us to make the case that it's in the best interests of the IFA to support us (and don't forget, that was done for every other group you saw talking to the Joint Committee). That, obviously, seems not to have happened here, but if it was to happen now, the IFA could still change their position.


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    #1770
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Sparks wrote: »
    (Though I hate that term, because to me, lobbyists lobby. Our lot are engineers and nurses and teachers and civil servants and farmers and gardai and so forth. They talk to TDs on their own time. But that's by the by

    It's hard to show the intended irony when I use the term "Gun Lobby"


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    #1771
    rangler1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Well sorry if the truth hurts first off!!
    But the facts are there.I myself saw a neighbour four months ago have two shotguns and a rifle swiped because he had them parked exactly where I've said in all those examples.At the back door!!And [BTW his and my next door neighbour is the son of a former president of the IFA in the 1980s.]. They were told numerous times to move them or get a safe as there have been break ibs in our area and there are perputally local known "heads" up and down our road..
    I have personally dealt with three cases of seperations here in the last four years where it was a farming couple splitting up and the husband admitting he hadnrt touched his guns since he last liscensed them and he had them stored out in an outbuilding for the last three years since renewal!!So if thats my very limited personal experiance,how many more of this carry on is going on around the countryside??If the cap fits....

    We have the problem of farmer sucidides as well,again if we are taking our stats somwhat seriously on gun deaths,its the farming community that has the most access to firearms..

    Also what makes farmers suddenly exempt from rules that the rest of have to meticously obey when it comes to firearms?? A gun whether it is a single barrel or semi auto rifle is still leathl,just because you only "have one" doesnt make it any less dangerous if it is stolen or misused.Farmers have to obey plenty of laws regarding H&S,storing dangerous chemicals,machinery, animal husbandary,hygenie etc.So whats the big deal about storing a firearm securely??We are talking at most a 100 quid here on a once off purchase.Which is a fill of diesel for a tractor these days.

    In fact if anything this is skewed and biased legislation to one sector of the Irish community an as such could also be challanged in the courts as discriminitory.

    I'm not trying to bash farmers here ,as I am from a farming backround and part time farmer and know well enough what it involves,but FFS there is a problem here in this section and claiming there isnt and that they are being picked upon is just laughable and very childish.And if that was a response to my and others observations to try and stymie pistol and semi rifles...well thats just utter juvenile to the point of kinder garten logic and arguments and actions.

    Also how can they alter their position now??They have gone and handed in this submission to the comittee and /or the Dail as per this article in ISD.So now the biggest gun owning group in Ireland has effectively said to the Govt"No need for semi auto CF rifles and pistols should be stored in the most illogical and dangerous fashion possible."How are they going to retract that submission??Write another and demand an exemption to the submissions as they are the IFA?? If they back down and retract their position it makes them look like utter edjits too...

    Damage is done lads...There is no coming back from this one!! AGS/DOJ will be all over this saying "well if the biggest gun lobby in Ireland says they dont want assault rifles as they see no need for them...."

    No point in farmer bashing, I'm a member of IFA, but I'm not a member of IFA country side, Its a separate organisation, the fact you say it's badly written leads me to suspect it didn't come from HQ, Looks like it'll have to be dealt with now anyway


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