Gardai proposals to ban firearms

catastrophy · 24-02-2015 11:30am

Sorry, I meant to add that you will not find too many dissenting voices amongst Garda management.

catastrophy · 24-02-2015 11:33am

yubabill1 wrote: »

I think the context is in relation to whistleblowers and egregious orders. surely, someone who is trained to enforce Irish statute law would know roughly what is right from what is clearly and unimpeachably unjust and apply the benefit of the doubt for anything in between.

Absolutely, I'm just pointing out that this debate is between members of Garda rank and the Minister.

yubabill1 · 24-02-2015 1:07pm

catastrophy wrote: »

Absolutely, I'm just pointing out that this debate is between members of Garda rank and the Minister.

OK, I think I see what you mean.

There's nothing stopping me supporting the Minister on this - I think anyone who values loyalty above honesty should go the way of senior church clerics who hid child abuse here - and this is the only thing I support the government on since they came into power, I have to add.

BoatMad · 24-02-2015 4:11pm

I wonder why the various sporting societies don't get together and take out full page ads in the news papers, outlining the situation, Our main enemy is mis-information and a lack of understanding of whats really the legal situation here.

perhaps more public debate and not less is whats needed.

tikkahunter · 24-02-2015 4:19pm

More lies and a hatchet job on Rte news website by ags

bpb101 · 24-02-2015 4:23pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I wonder why the various sporting societies don't get together and take out full page ads in the news papers, outlining the situation, Our main enemy is mis-information and a lack of understanding of whats really the legal situation here.

perhaps more public debate and not less is whats needed.

discussed here a while ago. ads in paper costs a lot of cash few grand that could be spent better

bpb101 · 24-02-2015 4:26pm

rte doing the spin part
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0224/682505-over-1-700-firearms-stolen-since-2010/

BoatMad · 24-02-2015 4:31pm

bpb101 wrote: »

discussed here a while ago. ads in paper costs a lot of cash few grand that could be spent better

could be spent better then what?

bpb101 · 24-02-2015 4:34pm

BoatMad wrote: »

could be spent better then what?

the money it cost to do adverts in paper could be better spent on the sport itself

BoatMad · 24-02-2015 4:42pm

bpb101 wrote: »

the money it cost to do adverts in paper could be better spent on the sport itself

hmm assuming there is one left, I don't see the wisdom in that . No point having money in the kitty and no-one to spend it on

The forces against us have access to the media and so forth , we must counter their arguments

Id spend everything we have at this juncture

bpb101 · 24-02-2015 4:50pm

BoatMad wrote: »

hmm assuming there is one left, I don't see the wisdom in that . No point having money in the kitty and no-one to spend it on

The forces against us have access to the media and so forth , we must counter their arguments

Id spend everything we have at this juncture

that was the argument on having adverts.

this debate was a while back.
another reason was that we have an ad in a paper like the irish times and the next day the write some article about evil we are.

there are pros and cons on the matter

BoatMad · 24-02-2015 5:06pm

bpb101 wrote: »

that was the argument on having adverts.

this debate was a while back.
another reason was that we have an ad in a paper like the irish times and the next day the write some article about evil we are.

there are pros and cons on the matter

If we believe we can hide in the shadows and win this war of words, we are entirely mistaken.

If we believe that we cannot get any public support for a reason position , then we are doomed to loose this campaign

we have to step into the light, theres no other way.

yubabill1 · 24-02-2015 5:21pm

bpb101 wrote: »

rte doing the spin part
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0224/682505-over-1-700-firearms-stolen-since-2010/

Almost one firearm per day stolen, 853 were shotguns. 17 handguns stolen.

Stolen firearms numbers decreasing since 2011.

The obvious conclusion is to make the farmers buy gunsafes - that'll solve half the problem immediately (Good luck with that, BTW).

Sparks · 24-02-2015 5:22pm

Boatmad, it's not actually about hiding away. Nobody's doing that.
It's that fullpage adverts don't fair well in a cost/benefit analysis.

Roundpack · 24-02-2015 5:25pm

More than 850 shotguns are stolen and yet AGS don't make a single recommendation regarding increased storage security in their recent review.....

BattleCorp · 24-02-2015 5:47pm

It's interesting how RTE can have the figures regarding handguns stolen but the Minister can't get those figures in the Dail.

BoatMad · 24-02-2015 5:53pm

Sparks wrote: »

Boatmad, it's not actually about hiding away. Nobody's doing that.
It's that fullpage adverts don't fair well in a cost/benefit analysis.

well Ill accept other media proposals , but right now, we are not winning this publicity or coming close to it.

Sparks · 24-02-2015 5:53pm

I'm more curious about how you can say:

Gardaí say it is not at present possible to accurately identify how many times stolen guns have been used in crimes but say they are compiling information on this for the Oireachtas Justice Committee.

Either it's not possible or it is possible, but it can't be impossible if you're compiling the data right now...

Sparks · 24-02-2015 5:56pm

BoatMad wrote: »

well Ill accept other media proposals , but right now, we are not winning this publicity or coming close to it.

I'm not sure I'd agree with the "coming close" part. The article yesterday from the Garda Pistol Club was a pretty huge thing, and we get fair coverage from a lot of social media type sites and so on. There are avenues that we just won't ever be well treated by, but throwing money at that won't fix it.

On top of which, getting a single message everyone will agree on and which is still worth saying is a nontrivial project.

daragh8008 · 24-02-2015 7:10pm

"Over 1,700 weapons were reported stolen to An Garda Síochána from 2010 to 2014."

and

"Gardaí say it is not at present possible to accurately identify how many times stolen guns have been used in crimes but say they are compiling information on this for the Oireachtas Justice Committee."

Did they not answer there own question there. If 1700 weapons were stolen then they must have identified 1,700 victims of crime? Or is that just yet another media slip?

yubabill1 · 24-02-2015 7:18pm

Sparks wrote: »

On top of which, getting a single message everyone will agree on and which is still worth saying is a nontrivial project.

I've got a whisper from a source that's been 100% reliable over the years, that there is disarray in the ranks on the other side: TD's and politicians have received tens of thousands of communications and are running scared, the AGS/DoJE proposals have become toxic.

Grizzly 45 · 24-02-2015 7:40pm

Good if this is true.".Let us continue to sow dissent ,rumours,fear and chaos in our enemies camps".As a wise old Chinese gent, Sun Tzu said in his book "The art of war".
Anyone find the timing intresting on this?Yesterday the Garda pistol club and former head of ballistics says this is all cobblers.Min Frannie Fitz tells the Rookies at Templemore not to obey every order blindly and without question.Seems good career advice as Chei f Comish Noreen who got on the career ladder in AGS by refusing to make the hang and cheese sangers for the station .:rolleyes:Which gets up the "old gaurd "of PJ Stone &Co.

And now this figure is spouted on the "Voice of the GDR"...er...RTE!
So for four years they have these figures,but cant supply them to the comittee the minister,or anyone else ,and still make a hames of it with saying "handguns" and" air pistols" Seeing as air pistols are considerd as handguns here and require a liscense,shouldnt that then be 60 handguns stolen here??

Indeed all in all it is beginning to sound like desperation on the other side.lets continue and give them no quarter.They wont give us and naver gave us any.

meathstevie · 24-02-2015 7:54pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

I've got a whisper from a source that's been 100% reliable over the years, that there is disarray in the ranks on the other side: TD's and politicians have received tens of thousands of communications and are running scared, the AGS/DoJE proposals have become toxic.

Common sense would dictate that if it isn't broken it doesn't need fixing. From a public safety point of view Irish firearms legislation is already extremely restrictive as to what it permits people to have in regard to firearms and ammunition and the amount of incidents with legally held guns is in all honesty completely negligible.

On the other hand there is a problem with guns in society. It's not going to be fixed with restricting sport shooting even further but with better resourced policing and the courts doing their job.

Imagine the amount of time and money already wasted on these detrimental proposals having been spent on resourcing front line policing to tackle organised crime.

The Minister for Justice who will stand up and have the proverbial balls to order and resource the Gardai to stick it to the scum that floods our towns and cities with all sorts of narcotics and goes around shooting around them with apparent impunity will be on a short track to reelection.

Deaf git · 24-02-2015 9:03pm

It goes deeper than resourcing AGS to deal with the scum that abound in our society. I'm tired of picking up the local paper to read -

'Joe Bloggs has been sentenced to 6 months for burglary. Mr Bloggs asked for clemency due to his addictions. Mr. Bloggs has 39 previous convictions. Mr Bloggs requested 5 other offences be taken into consideration.'

This type of report tells me the Gardai did their job on 39 previous occasions, it also tells me our courts and prison system didn't do theirs - someone with 39 convictions is clearly beyond rehabilitation and society needs to be protected from the Bloggs by incarcerating said Bloggs for a very long time.

AGS need reformation at root & branch level also, but ffs if a garda catches a criminal he shouldn't see the guy back out and engaged in crime within a few weeks or months. It has to blunt any enthusiasm for doing the job.

bpb101 · 24-02-2015 9:15pm

Deaf git wrote: »

It goes deeper than resourcing AGS to deal with the scum that abound in our society. I'm tired of picking up the local paper to read -

'Joe Bloggs has been sentenced to 6 months for burglary. Mr Bloggs asked for clemency due to his addictions. Mr. Bloggs has 39 previous convictions. Mr Bloggs requested 5 other offences be taken into consideration.'

This type of report tells me the Gardai did their job on 39 previous occasions, it also tells me our courts and prison system didn't do theirs - someone with 39 convictions is clearly beyond rehabilitation and society needs to be protected from the Bloggs by incarcerating said Bloggs for a very long time.

AGS need reformation at root & branch level also, but ffs if a garda catches a criminal he shouldn't see the guy back out and engaged in crime within a few weeks or months. It has to blunt any enthusiasm for doing the job.

your right deaf, the reason crime is so high here is very simple. There no punishment. 6 months suspended sentences here 30 days there.
The problem is the jails themselfs, They havent got the space to hold them.
There was a murder a few years back , i polish guy got in a disagreement with another chap , that chap, went home, got a screwdriver sharpened it and when back a few hours later and stab the polish guy in the head. He got 4 years in jail. The friends who was with him , who kicked the polish guy in the head (when he was on the floor ) got something like 2.

usually defenses " he didnt mean it" or "his granny just died and wasent thinking straight."

lock these people up , and throw away the key

Nekarsulm · 24-02-2015 9:24pm

But a headline that states "100 criminals get longer sentences" is not as politically appealing as "9000 "weapons" taken out of circulation by Gardai, states Minister"
And we do have an election coming up........

Grizzly 45 · 24-02-2015 9:37pm

Where are we going to put all these criminals?This is why the judicary has to hand out these sort of stupid sentences.Until we build more jails,which means more of our tax monies being spent on earners" for those in the golden circles",this will continue.Unless of course we want to get someone in like Sheriff Joe of Maricopa county AZ,and start putting up tent camps some place and while appealing getting chain gangs out to start cleaning our roads and fields of noxious weeds and litter.I cant see one politican in the whole lot of them having a backbone to do this and go full speed ahead and damn the human rights,liberal doo gooders whinings.
"Crime doesnt pay"... Rightttt...It pays for plenty of things.:rolleyes:

Deaf git · 24-02-2015 9:41pm

bpb101 wrote: »

your right deaf, the reason crime is so high here is very simple. There no punishment. 6 months suspended sentences here 30 days there.
The problem is the jails themselfs, They havent got the space to hold them.
There was a murder a few years back , i polish guy got in a disagreement with another chap , that chap, went home, got a screwdriver sharpened it and when back a few hours later and stab the polish guy in the head. He got 4 years in jail. The friends who was with him , who kicked the polish guy in the head (when he was on the floor ) got something like 2.

usually defenses " he didnt mean it" or "his granny just died and wasent thinking straight."

lock these people up , and throw away the key

I think you might be referring to a DOUBLE murder of 2 Polish guys in Dublin 12. The murderer got 'life', his accomplice helped by kicking one of the dying men in the head. Both had previous convictions, one definitely had 75 previous. Kicking a defenceless, dying man in the head was worth only 4years....

Jail space? IKEA can give great advice on storage problems....pile them in and pack them high.
Early release for good behaviour? I think additional chokey for anything less than good behaviour is a better idea.

I know HealyRae did our cause no good with his guns for self defence comments but his comments highlight an issue for rural life. I am aware of 4 people living in my immediate area that have been burgled on a repeated basis because they are elderly easy targets. Nobody is giving them a solution. They are constantly looking over their shoulder with fear. It's sad to see.

bpb101 · 24-02-2015 9:46pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Where are we going to put all these criminals?This is why the judicary has to hand out these sort of stupid sentences.Until we build more jails,which means more of our tax monies being spent on earners" for those in the golden circles",this will continue.Unless of course we want to get someone in like Sheriff Joe of Maricopa county AZ,and start putting up tent camps some place and while appealing getting chain gangs out to start cleaning our roads and fields of noxious weeds and litter.I cant see one politican in the whole lot of them having a backbone to do this and go full speed ahead and damn the human rights,liberal doo gooders whinings.
"Crime doesnt pay"... Rightttt...It pays for plenty of things.:rolleyes:

suggested cutback
stop buying footballs
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local-news/limerick-prison-spends-10-000-on-new-footballs-for-inmates-1-4099240

I do like football, i really do , but spending 10,000 a year on footballs is an example of how we blow money.

Im sure if any yous ever played football in school , if you burst the ball, somebody dosent keep giving you new ones

Makes you think what else the blow money on.

bpb101 · 24-02-2015 9:53pm

Deaf git wrote: »

I think you might be referring to a DOUBLE murder of 2 Polish guys in Dublin 12. The murderer got 'life', his accomplice helped by kicking one of the dying men in the head. Both had previous convictions, one definitely had 75 previous. Kicking a defenceless, dying man in the head was worth only 4years....

Jail space? IKEA can give great advice on storage problems....pile them in and pack them high.
Early release for good behaviour? I think additional chokey for anything less than good behaviour is a better idea.

I know HealyRae did our cause no good with his guns for self defence comments but his comments highlight an issue for rural life. I am aware of 4 people living in my immediate area that have been burgled on a repeated basis because they are elderly easy targets. Nobody is giving them a solution. They are constantly looking over their shoulder with fear. It's sad to see.

i may easily be have the details wrong.
still though, 4 years for kicking a man in the head when he has a blade in his head is worth more than 4 years.

ikea does have some great solutions

It has to be made clear that prison is not a nice place to go to and the way to make that clear is by having it so prison isent a nice place.
Prision atm is a place you go to make contacts.

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