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New Government Report spells disaster for on-shore Wind Energy

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Hands up anybody who has swallowed the new wind atlas and its predictions. Did you also swallow the Governments big lie:

    The 150m tall turbines at Oweninny will produce 10% less electricity on a unit basis than the metered production from dozens of 50m tall turbines in the North over 1998 - 2004.

    Swallowing that much Government bulldung may cause you to spontaneous barf the whole lot up. Keep a bucket handy. I bet Bord Pleanala are having trouble holding the whole lot down - especially given the evidence from the ESB chief scientist at the oral hearings :)

    Don't get me wrong - I consider the SEI and its vested interest issues to be a very malign influence on energy policy in this country and if I had my way I would shut down this quango in the morning.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/whelan-warns-on-sustainable-energy-bosss-windfarm-conflict-of-interest-29365613.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    This seemed relevant and contained some useful info on wind speed etc

    http://tallbloke.wordpress.com/2015/02/21/wind-speed-law


  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭Paul Thomas Rowland


    valamhic wrote: »
    H...
    The Eirgrid factor for 2002 to 2004 is 34.06. It is possible DUKES relied on factor supplied from Eirgrid. Therefore Northern Ireland's figures are suspect...

    The DTI capacity factor for dozens of turbines in the North over 2002-2004 is 35%, the Eirgrid figure you quote for the period is 34.06% - these numbers are in good agreement I suggest? The best capacity factor year in the DTI study was 40%, the worst 32%.
    ..Based on Met Eireann's 30 rear record to 2001, a factor above 25% was unlikely and above 30% impossible..
    The Irish Energy Center study of Bellacorick wind farm over 4 years shows a capacity factor for that period of about 31.5%. It includes this graph:
    339728.png

    The IEC study of Cronalaght wind farm, 6km from West coast with 5 turbines with tip height of 64.5m, says:

    The system was inaugurated in June 1997, and generated approximately 11 GWh in its first year of operation, representing a capacity factor of 42.4%. The system availability was 96% over the period.

    Very tall turbines on the west coast will produce significantly more electricity than these small turbines


  • Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Dermot McDonnell


    ..
    The Irish Energy Center study of Bellacorick wind farm over 4 years shows a capacity factor for that period of about 31.5%. It includes this graph:
    339728.png

    Readers will notice that of the 48 months considered, 1 month achieved a 58% capacity factor, 3 months ~50% and so on.


    Below the capacity factors for Danish off shore wind farms.

    339820.png

    Does anyone really believe that Oweninny and Cluddaun wind farms on the edge of the Atlantic Ocean cannot achieve levels of production comparable to the best Danish sites?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    Could some one explain why we need more wind power

    take tonight - during the 6pm peak the wind generation suffered a MASSIVE 400MW wind down event which would have required a very rapid ramp of reserve (probably fossil) power. This would not have been planned so they would either have had to have lots of spinning reserve just in case or some where suffered a brown out/black out

    Additionally despite all this lovely wind we are importing over all three inter-connector links - this is the true madness of wind energy

    339894.jpg

    339895.jpg

    339896.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Below the capacity factors for Danish off shore wind farms.



    Does anyone really believe that Oweninny and Cluddaun wind farms on the edge of the Atlantic Ocean cannot achieve levels of production comparable to the best Danish sites?

    You can't really compare Danish offshore wind to Mayo onshore. The Oweninny site is a good few miles inland and so winds speed there will be subject to land friction which reduces actually mean speeds compared to off-shore Turbines in the North Sea. This process is very evident on weather models that show average wind speeds over oceans/seas and adjacent land masses. It should be pointed out that offshore wind energy is even more expensive than its onshore equivalent due to higher establishment/maintenance costs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23 LiamMayo


    Hands up anybody who has swallowed the new wind atlas and its predictions. Did you also swallow the Governments big lie:

    The 150m tall turbines at Oweninny will produce 10% less electricity on a unit basis than the metered production from dozens of 50m tall turbines in the North over 1998 - 2004.

    Swallowing that much Government bulldung may cause you to spontaneously barf the whole lot up. Keep a bucket handy. I bet Bord Pleanala are having trouble holding the whole lot down - especially given the evidence from the ESB chief scientist at the oral hearings :)

    No takers? no surprise to me. only an ejit would swallow it.

    What did the ESB chief scientist have to say in evidence at the oral hearings in Ballina?


  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭Paul Thomas Rowland


    LiamMayo wrote: »
    No takers? no surprise to me. only an ejit would swallow it.

    Not even those on here who work for ESB, BnM and the state can digest that much sh!te but I will bet you Bord Pleanala will swallow the lot. Do not expect quasi civil servants there to turn down quasi civil servants in ESB and BnM on a huge investment for Mayo that has the full support of the Leader n his cronies. €50m a year in hidden earnings for 35 years for a private limited company buys a lot of friends and supporters.


    What did the ESB chief scientist have to say in evidence at the oral hearings in Ballina?

    The professor gave a mean wind speed of 9m/s at 100m while questioned by the OP. The minimum capacity factor is well over 40% for that level of wind power and maximum capacity factor is closer to 60%. All of which are a long way from the 33% claimed by the state.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    Apple seem confident about irish wind power


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    LiamMayo wrote: »
    No takers? no surprise to me. only an ejit would swallow it.

    What did the ESB chief scientist have to say in evidence at the oral hearings in Ballina?

    The Met Eireann data for Belmullet tends to support the atlas findings.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Apple seem confident about irish wind power
    :confused:

    Please expand!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭Paul Thomas Rowland


    The Met Eireann data for Belmullet tends to support the atlas findings.

    So you keep saying without having produced a shred of evidence. Your excuse for your pathetic failure to publish any scientific calculations?
    I do not have a license to publish Met Eireann data.

    Met Eireann Terms and Conditions:
    Met Éireann retains Intellectual Property Rights and copyright over our data. If data are published in raw or processed format Met Éireann must be acknowledged as the source


    No licence required. You, and the state, are expert in spreading bulldung in respect of Oweninny and Cluddaun. You have not mentioned at all the 8 years of wind measurements published by BnM for the actual site of the wind farm. That data, as you well know, clearly shows the new wind atlas power predictions are out by 50% at 100m.
    Thats all a bit conspiracy theory - grounded entirely in conjecture and not fact.

    The OP has published considerable scientific data in support of his argument, you have published precisely nothing and offered bullsh!t excuses for your pathetic failure. You have spectacularly failed to cast doubt on any of the scientific data presented in this thread. Declare your interest. Which of the state agencies involved in the Oweninny fraud are you an agent of?

    Your credibility is shot and you are all out of excuses. Once again, put up or shut up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭Paul Thomas Rowland


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    :confused:

    Please expand!!

    From Apple press release.

    ...Lisa Jackson, Apple’s vice president of Environmental Initiatives. “We’re excited to spur green industry growth in Ireland and Denmark and develop energy systems that take advantage of their strong wind resources. ...


    Perhaps oppenheimer1, or other advocates of the scientific accuracy of the new state wind atlas, might send Apple a copy? Perhaps Apple will reconsider their new multi million investment in the West. After all, the state atlas now shows 50% of wind power has mysteriously disappeared in the past 10 years at the site where the state is planning to build by far the largest, tallest wind farm in the country.

    Apple are a US$700bn company, they are neither criminal, stupid, incompetent nor intellectually lazy unlike the state agencies involved in the attempted theft of billions of € worth of our natural resources in north Mayo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 669 ✭✭✭whatstherush


    After all, the state atlas now shows 50% of wind power has mysteriously disappeared in the past 10 years at the site where the state is planning to build by far the largest, tallest wind farm in the country.

    I don't really follow the bolded bit, would less wind not be bad for proposed new wind farms, why would they produce a doctored wind atlas, with less wind?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    From Apple press release.

    ...Lisa Jackson, Apple’s vice president of Environmental Initiatives. “We’re excited to spur green industry growth in Ireland and Denmark and develop energy systems that take advantage of their strong wind resources. ...


    .

    Apple will be using the same grid as the rest of us ie. one that relies on conventional power stations for the majority of the time when the wind is either too light or too strong to meet demands at peak times. The statement is simply the usual fuzzy greenwash PR stuff you get from big corporations these days. If Apple wants to do something usefull for the environment they could start by cleaning up their supply chain in China.

    http://www.environmentalleader.com/2013/07/29/apple-supplier-slapped-with-pollution-charges/

    Moving pollution from one side of the planet to the other does not equate to "preventing" it


  • Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Dermot McDonnell


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Apple will be using the same grid as the rest of us ie...

    I suspect the point was Apple say their rational was based on the quality of our wind resource. It is much easier to move toward 100% reliance on renewable sources of power where wind power is highest. In any case, this thread is not about what Apple are doing worldwide, it's about what the state is doing at Oweninny/Cluddaun.

    Birdnuts wrote: »
    You can't really compare Danish offshore wind to Mayo onshore.

    The Danish North Sea wind farm with the highest lifetime capacity factor is Horns Rev II, at 48.9%. If you calculate the mean wind speed for that site, knowing the turbine type deployed, you will find that it is less than the mean wind speed for Oweninny, 9m/s, given in evidence by Dr. Kavanagh (Senior Consultant Environment at ESB) during the oral hearings.

    Dr. Kavanagh has been at ESB a long time. I had no difficulty with any of his evidence. To the best of my knowledge, he had absolutely nothing to do with the capacity factors included in the planning application. Nor did he insist the 33% capacity factor was accurate, the Oweninny project management team did that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Dermot McDonnell


    why would they produce a doctored wind atlas, with less wind?

    An excellent question, it goes precisely to the heart of the matter. Thank you for putting it so succinctly.

    Prior to July 4th, 2013 the Irish Energy Centre scientific studies - including a 4 year on site study at Oweninny, the 7 year UK DTI capacity factor figures for the North, the mean wind figures for Oweninny and the former SEAI wind atlas all agree and point to excellent electricity production at Oweninny/Cluddaun.

    On that date, Oweninny Power Limited submitted a planning application under the Strategic Infrastructure Act for a colossal wind farm. It contained two great surprises for me:

    The EIA contains a capacity factor, a quantity I have never previously encountered in any planning application for a wind farm here. It quantifies expected lifetime yield for the project. What is it doing there? Capacity factor information is not a requirement of the planning process. Coilte do not mention capacity factor in their application. Large companies rarely reveal this kind of sensitive financial information.

    The capacity factor it contains, 33%, is used in various calculation, e.g. carbon emissions, that are a requirement of the planning process. That 33% figure flies in the face of very considerable high quality scientific evidence. Why is it so much lower than the best evidence says it should be?

    In granting a planning permission, An Bord Pleanála certifies the information in the application. In the case of OPL, that includes the capacity factor information. In doing that, the Bord puts a value on OPL, certified by the Irish State. The total project cost estimate is published, subject to public tender, as are the borrowing costs for the companies involved. OPL can get an investment bank to put a value on itself, and it can be sold overnight, in whole or in part, without any democratic oversight.

    If you convince the Bord to certify a capacity factor much lower that the true figure, the valuation will fall very considerably. In a sense, electricity from wind is like sms messaging, both cost nothing to make. If you conceal a massive chunk of the annual cash flow, all of it profit, the value plummets. The project can be sold, apparently at fair value and our natural resources will have been plundered once again in North Mayo.

    The Dept of Energy has responsibility for ESB, BnM, and SEAI. As ESB/BnM, including Oweninny project team members, exchanged information with the new wind atlas contractor, I would think the 33% emerged from that exchange. There is no independent scientific evidence in support of it whatsoever and plenty of evidence has emerged in this thread to show that our wind resource has not varied to any great extent over many many years of Met Éireann measurements. Why should the next 40 years be any different?

    An Bord Pleanála are due to make a decision tomorrow in respect of Oweninny/Cluddaun.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    So you keep saying without having produced a shred of evidence. Your excuse for your pathetic failure to publish any scientific calculations?



    Met Eireann Terms and Conditions:
    Met Éireann retains Intellectual Property Rights and copyright over our data. If data are published in raw or processed format Met Éireann must be acknowledged as the source


    No licence required. You, and the state, are expert in spreading bulldung in respect of Oweninny and Cluddaun. You have not mentioned at all the 8 years of wind measurements published by BnM for the actual site of the wind farm. That data, as you well know, clearly shows the new wind atlas power predictions are out by 50% at 100m.



    The OP has published considerable scientific data in support of his argument, you have published precisely nothing and offered bullsh!t excuses for your pathetic failure. You have spectacularly failed to cast doubt on any of the scientific data presented in this thread. Declare your interest. Which of the state agencies involved in the Oweninny fraud are you an agent of?

    Your credibility is shot and you are all out of excuses. Once again, put up or shut up.

    The data has been published by another poster already in this thread. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94339809&postcount=57 Data which you conveniently ignore.

    I am no shill for wind power, I think its role can only be very limited in the energy mix as it has to be backed up, megawatt for megawatt by conventional generation. Ireland would be better off going nuclear imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭Paul Thomas Rowland


    The data has been published by another poster already in this thread...

    I am no shill for wind power...

    HaHa. You came on this thread screaming "conspiracy theory", it is in all of your early posts. Then you produced this bulldung:
    ..Because I've got very little better to be at, from the most current met eireann dataset for Belmullet (obtainable from the website), a very basic analysis shows fall in the average windspeed in the period 2000-2010 compared to 1990-2000, somewhere between 15 and 20%. It is not inconceivable that a more pronounced effect is observed at a greater height. I'm sorry but your conspiracy doesn't stack up I'm afraid.

    You have refused 7 times to publish your "calculations". My 9 year old daughter was able to the math. Your "results" are several times her figure. In the only maths you have published on this thread you invented the 11 year decade as it suited your "results". Get a life.


  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭Paul Thomas Rowland



    An excellent question, it goes precisely to the heart of the matter....


    Dermot, the opportunity for a multi €bn get rich quick scheme by ESB/BnM senior managers is well explained but I'd say there is small chance ESB and BnM will sell off Oweninny now that the fraud issue has been highlighted here.

    What about the impact of the new SEAI wind atlas on small rural communities up and down the country? Are you not going to go talk about that before a decision this evening? It is the most important thing for many many people as you know. Tens of thousands will be much poorer as a result. Do the ESB and BnM get to steal everything?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    Paul wrote:

    What about the impact of the new SEAI wind atlas on small rural communities up and down the country? Are you not going to go talk about that before a decision this evening? It is the most important thing for many many people as you know. Tens of thousands will be much poorer as a result. Do the ESB and BnM get to steal everything?
    Sort of two way
    a) my local wind farm does not make sense as it wont generate much so lets challenge planning on that basis
    b) I need to submit planning for a bigger wind farm with more turbines to get a reasonable scale out of my development

    Depends from which side you are looking


  • Registered Users Posts: 23 LiamMayo




    It contained two great surprises for me:

    The EIA contains a capacity factor, a quantity I have never previously encountered in any planning application for a wind farm here. It quantifies expected lifetime yield for the project. What is it doing there? Capacity factor information is not a requirement of the planning process. Coilte do not mention capacity factor in their application. Large companies rarely reveal this kind of sensitive financial information.

    The capacity factor it contains, 33%, is used in various calculation, e.g. carbon emissions, that are a requirement of the planning process. That 33% figure flies in the face of very considerable high quality scientific evidence. Why is it so much lower than the best evidence says it should be?

    In granting a planning permission, An Bord Pleanála certifies the information in the application...

    eureka.

    the state set the new wind atlas parameters so wind power at 100m falls by half. they did it by giving the contractor a carefully selected shear factor, right? one that does not happen really. after the atlas was baked, the contractor met esb and bnm. there esb n bnm discovered the new atlas predicts 33% capacity factor at oweninny. they stick 33% in the planning application.

    that is a very very clever neat neat fraud. it must have been planned for a long long time. for sure they will sell it if they get the nod. why would they pull a sale now just coz of this thread. once is goes we never see it again. like real life russian oligarks after a really big con they move somewhere they cant be arrested


  • Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Dermot McDonnell


    ...What about the impact of the new SEAI wind atlas on small rural communities up and down the country?..

    First may I say, this thread is not about the merits of developing our wind resources. That is another debate.

    What is happening at Oweninny/Cluddaun should be a matter of concern to all of us in this country. It is certainly a matter of very serious concern to the people of North Mayo. It is local communities that suffer when resource development projects go horribly wrong. Rightly, or wrongly, many people believe that the root cause of the Corrib disaster was corruption.

    The Dept of Energy and Natural Resources bears the responsibility for that disaster. Have they learned anything in the 20+ years since Corrib began? The Dept is back in North Mayo with another massive resource project, Oweninny. Already, the stench of corruption surrounds it and it is science, lots of robust pre-existing independent scientific studies, that permits us to detect that stench from a considerable distance.

    All natural resources, including the air and all forms of potential energy...belong to the State....
    Article 10 of our Constitution.

    Where the resource is excellent, and very profitable compared to elsewhere, why not share these resources fairly in an open and transparent manner? To my mind, that is part and parcel of sustainable development. We do after all own our resource equally

    Sadly, Govt policy for Oweninny is to shovel these fabulous resources into a special purpose vehicle, OPL, with almost zero transparency that can vanish overnight. Where will the wealth go from OPL? To the ESB and BnM, two of the most powerful, wealthy, influential institutions in Ireland? Perhaps it will just vanish overnight, who knows? Who would even notice? This not sustainable development, as I understand it. The consultation exercise conducted by the State was a disinformation campaign carefully designed to pull the wool over our eyes.

    All of this happening in a wall of media silence. I invite you to search RTE for information on Oweninny and Cluddaun. You will find the few hits will link, by and large, to the ESB/BnM/Coillte annual reports and the announcement of the oral hearings. Prime Time, their flagship current affairs team, had several shows devoted to wind farm projects without a single mention of Oweninny/Cluddaun, by far the largest proposed wind farm in this country. The Oweninny/Cluddaun applications had been with ABP for many months but not a word about it on RTE. They are, of course, under the thumb of the Dept and enjoy the advertising steam they derive from their semi-state stable mates.

    If you search the Irish Times, Examiner, local Mayo papers there is some information but nothing relating to value and profitability - no valuation.

    The wind atlas was primarily intended as an information tool for Local Authorities in identifying areas suitable for renewable energy development within County Development Plans. Local Authorities have subsequently utilised the SEAI wind atlas as a basis for developing county wind energy strategies. - Minister Alex White.

    Some Counties, Mayo for example, have included Community Benefit Contributions in their County Development Plans under Section 109 of the Local Government Act 2001. In the case of Mayo, the amount is €10,000/MW. The amount offerred by ESB/BnM was €1,000/MW. The UK require £5,000/MW, at least.

    The new wind atlas will have a chilling effect on perfectly legitimate Community Benefit entitlements across the country, robbing those communities of billions of euro over the next 40 years. Projects appear far less profitable if you use the use it as your reference point for yield. This has, of course, already happened as the new wind atlas is in place for a few months now. This has even done at a stroke by the state without a mention anywhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    HaHa. You came on this thread screaming "conspiracy theory", it is in all of your early posts. Then you produced this bulldung:



    You have refused 7 times to publish your "calculations". My 9 year old daughter was able to the math. Your "results" are several times her figure. In the only maths you have published on this thread you invented the 11 year decade as it suited your "results". Get a life.

    Banned for a day for a persistently caustic, dismissive, and generally uncivil approach to the discussion.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 23 LiamMayo


    A few of us went down to Bangor this evening to meet the local wind action committee. bord pleanala postponed the decision on the mayo wind farms to April 30.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    I am digressing a bit but I thought this was interesting. Its comparable situation. Its another near wildness site that is being industrialized for wind.

    Bogland used by Bord na Mona in the Midlands has been converted into a 115 million euro wind farm with enough power to generate electricity for 45,000 homes....

    Bord na Mona said Mountlucas was the largest single investment in its history and 12 people will be employed during its operation.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/115m-bogland-wind-farm-is-switched-on-to-generate-electricity-for-45000-homes-31033392.html

    115 million Euro investment, electricity for 45,000 home but only 12 jobs created.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,660 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    robp wrote: »
    I am digressing a bit but I thought this was interesting. Its comparable situation. Its another near wildness site that is being industrialized for wind.




    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/115m-bogland-wind-farm-is-switched-on-to-generate-electricity-for-45000-homes-31033392.html

    115 million Euro investment, electricity for 45,000 home but only 12 jobs created.

    Eddie O' Connor claims his Mainstream company is worth 400M euros - but employs less than 100 people:confused: As for powering 45k homes. Yet more more spin given winds unreliability, especially at times of peak demand.


  • Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Dermot McDonnell


    robp wrote: »
    ....Bogland used by Bord na Mona in the Midlands has been converted into a 115 million euro wind farm ....

    This what BnM had to tell the Oireachtas committee:

    I will address the community gain issue. Bord na Móna recently completed a consultation on the development of the Mount Lucas and Bruckana wind farms which are domestically connected. Neither of these wind farms had prescribed community benefit schemes associated with them through planning. We indicated, however, that we would put in place such schemes.

    Mayo County Council recommended Community Gain of €10,000/MW/yr, indexed linked, for both Oweninny and Cluddaun. The connection offer is for 521MW. The County Development Plan was amended last year to include the same figure. Do the lifetime math :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 23 LiamMayo


    ...Do the lifetime math...

    about €15000 a day in community gain. over 36 years, maybe €500m? and communities in the midland get zilch.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭Paul Thomas Rowland


    LiamMayo wrote: »
    about €15000 a day in community gain. over 36 years, maybe €500m? and communities in the midland get zilch.

    How much is €500m as a percentage of the many billions that will flow in the hands of the greedy lying criminals in ESB/BnM?

    The communities hosting BnM wind farms down the midlands have been robbed. BnM will give them very very little and they will have to BnM kiss ass to get a penny. How's that for sustainable development, Dermot? It does not happen here. Powerful vested interests have the wealth all sown up.

    As the new wind atlas is now the official Government reference point for County Councils, communities that are forced to accept these ugly wind farms, and the associated grid, will get nothing in the future either. The whole business is a scam.


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