Anti-gay legislation proposed in Northern Ireland

Demonique · 27-02-2015 12:12am #1

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-31076402

Over 1,000 people gathered at Belfast's City Hall on Saturday to protest over the DUP's conscience clause bill.

The crowd was addressed by politicians from Alliance, Sinn Féin and SDLP, as well as community leaders.

Paul Givan's private member's bill aims to create a legal exemption on grounds of strongly held religious beliefs.

He sought to introduce a "conscience clause" into equality law in NI, following legal action taken against a Christian-owned bakery.

The Equality Commission has brought a civil case against Ashers Baking Company after it refused to bake a cake with a pro-gay marriage slogan.

The row first emerged in July, when Ashers revealed it was facing possible legal action over its decision to decline a customer's request.

The cake had been ordered in Belfast by a gay activist for a civic event in Bangor, County Down, marking International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia.

Ashers Baking Company said it had declined the request because it was "at odds" with its Christian beliefs.

Mr Givan argued that the law had to be rebalanced.

He said it was a choice between a society "that can make space for difference or one that is intolerant".

Mr Givan said the Equality Commission's legal action had "created a hierarchy of rights where all minorities are not to be treated equally".

There is a petition against this bill here - https://go.allout.org/en/a/northern-ireland/?akid=4876.930814.Z_Tytv&rd=1&t=1&utm_campaign=northern-ireland&utm_content=english&utm_medium=email&utm_source=actionsuite

osarusan · 27-02-2015 12:14am

Some people in that part of the island really are stuck in the dark ages.

AllGunsBlazing · 27-02-2015 12:14am

NI is fast becoming this island's equivalent of America's deep south.

Mr. Remote Control · 27-02-2015 12:15am

My name is Kevin. When I am older I want to be a biscuit.

O'Neill · 27-02-2015 12:17am

The North is stuck behind no doubt about it, but are you seriously judging the entire population over this?

CJ Haughey · 27-02-2015 12:18am

Mr. Remote Control wrote: »

My name is Kevin. When I am older I want to be a biscuit.

Why settle for being a biscuit when you could be a cake. Dream big.

DrGreenthumb · 27-02-2015 12:20am

Mr. Remote Control wrote: »

My name is Kevin. When I am older I want to be a biscuit.

Fitting choice, i bet you'll crumble under pressure though

Mr. Remote Control · 27-02-2015 12:21am

CJ Haughey wrote: »

Why settle for being a biscuit when you could be a cake. Dream big.

Hmmmm. Yeah; yeah - I guess your right! Thanks!

Balmed Out · 27-02-2015 12:21am

Is a chocolate biscuit cake more cake or biscuit?

Mr. Remote Control · 27-02-2015 12:22am

Balmed Out wrote: »

Is a chocolate biscuit cake more cake or biscuit?

Moooooaar cake and biscuit!!

hfallada · 27-02-2015 12:27am

Imagine trying to have functioning Dail if there was a unification of the 32 counties. Instead of discussing important economic matters. I have a feeling, there would be a lot of debating over **** like this. Like the only reason why this law is being proposed as its clearly the views of a sizeable minority of NI.

How is that England is liberal and yet NI is so backwards. They both have Church of Ireland/Catholics. But their social views are literally polar opposites.

Egginacup · 27-02-2015 12:31am

osarusan wrote: »

Some people in that part of the island really are stuck in the dark ages.

Shouldn't they be bombed then, like the Russians and all Muslims?

Mr. Remote Control · 27-02-2015 12:32am

Moar cake!

CJ Haughey · 27-02-2015 12:33am

hfallada wrote: »

How is that England is liberal and yet NI is so backwards.

The backwards man has a strong voice up there.

The Backwards Man · 27-02-2015 12:33am

hfallada wrote: »

Imagine trying to have functioning Dail if there was a unification of the 32 counties. Instead of discussing important economic matters. I have a feeling, there would be a lot of debating over **** like this. Like the only reason why this law is being proposed as its clearly the views of a sizeable minority of NI.

How is that England is liberal and yet NI is so backwards. They both have Church of Ireland/Catholics. But their social views are literally polar opposites.

For many in the DUP, Anglican and Roman Catholic are more or less the same thing. Different demographic altogether.

moxin · 27-02-2015 12:34am

Why don't ye say the obvious, the objections to equality come from Unionist reps not Nationalist or Alliance.

conorh91 · 27-02-2015 12:36am

hfallada wrote: »

How is that England is liberal and yet NI is so backwards. They both have Church of Ireland/Catholics.

NI is 60%+ Catholic and Presbyterian.

Neither come from the English tradition.

Only about 12% of Northern Ireland is Church of England (Ireland).

The latter have a totally different ethos altogether to Presbyterians and Catholics

postitnote · 27-02-2015 7:01am

The vocal crackpots up here are not representative of the rest of us. I am ashamed and appalled at the DUP and this 'Conscience' clause.

Most of us prefer to keep our heads down and get on with life. It's these bigots that ruin it for everyone.

I plead with everyone with an actual conscience to sign the petition and show these dinosaurs there's no place for their archaic views.

https://go.allout.org/en/a/northern-ireland/?akid=4876.930814.Z_Tytv&rd=1&t=1&utm_campaign=northern-ireland&utm_content=english&utm_medium=email&utm_source=actionsuite

md23040 · 27-02-2015 7:23am

hfallada wrote: »

How is that England is liberal and yet NI is so backwards. They both have Church of Ireland/Catholics. But their social views are literally polar opposites.

Not that I agree with this nonsense but why don't you go onto a Muslim cafe and demand a bacon buttie or else go into a kosher bakery and ask for a National Front style cake with a big swastika on it and see how far you get in Liberal UK or anywhere else for that matter.

SpaceTime · 27-02-2015 7:28am

O'Neill wrote: »

The North is stuck behind no doubt about it, but are you seriously
judging the entire population over this?

Not the whole population just the large % who gave the DUP a vote.

Unfortunately in a democracy you get the politicians you elect and in this case I think it's bringing NI's whole image abroad into disrepute
This aspect of unionism is going to alienate itself from the UK as it seems to represent something totally "foreign" to modern British (and Irish) values.

Are they planning a union with the US bible belt ?

SpaceTime · 27-02-2015 7:37am

I'd add on the plus side it removes NI as a serious competitor for FDI as with laws like that being proposed you'll make it very unattractive to companies wanting to recruit from abroad on areas like the IT sector, serious side of financial services, make it harder to recruit high level academics into universities etc etc etc

So basically the DUP have just made Dublin, Cork, Galway and of course Glasgow, Edinburgh etc etc much more attractive.

padd b1975 · 27-02-2015 8:46am

Anything that stops bitchy offence seekers from trumping up charges against hard working honest business people is fine with me.

Herb Powell · 27-02-2015 8:48am

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

NI is fast becoming this island's equivalent of America's deep south.

Becoming?

Daith · 27-02-2015 8:55am

padd b1975 wrote: »

Anything that stops bitchy offence seekers from trumping up charges against hard working honest business people is fine with me.

They're not honest business people if they're breaking equality laws when it comes to doing business.

padd b1975 · 27-02-2015 9:02am

Daith wrote: »

They're not honest business people if they're breaking equality laws when it comes to doing business.

The law is clearly an ass given that such a thing as simply refusing business can create such a sh1testorm.

Daith · 27-02-2015 9:04am

padd b1975 wrote: »

The law is clearly an ass given that such a thing as simply refusing business can create such a sh1testorm.

Don't care. Calling them "honest" businessman is incorrect. You want to do business, operate a business, you follow the law.

Pherekydes · 27-02-2015 9:06am

padd b1975 wrote: »

The law is clearly an ass given that such a thing as simply refusing business can create such a sh1testorm.

If you're in business why would you refuse business?

bpmurray · 27-02-2015 9:09am

padd b1975 wrote: »

The law is clearly an ass given that such a thing as simply refusing business can create such a sh1testorm.

If they were refused service because they were women or because they were black, would you think it was inappropriate then? What if because they had red hair? Or freckles?

Daith · 27-02-2015 9:09am

Pherekydes wrote: »

If you're in business why would you refuse business?

People can refuse business. The reason for refusing is the issue.

Pherekydes · 27-02-2015 9:16am

Daith wrote: »

People can refuse business. The reason for refusing is the issue.

List some valid reasons...

Cookie_Monster · 27-02-2015 9:17am

Pherekydes wrote: »

List some valid reasons...

'I don't like the look of you'

padd b1975 · 27-02-2015 9:18am

Pherekydes wrote: »

If you're in business why would you refuse business?

I wouldn't if at all possible.

I would only refuse for purely practical reasons.

Manpower, request not in my skillset, potential for job not to be profitable etc etc

bucketybuck · 27-02-2015 9:22am

Its the unionists again, always the bloody unionists. :rolleyes:

Daith · 27-02-2015 9:27am

Pherekydes wrote: »

List some valid reasons...

Sorry we can't fulfill that order.
We are all booked up.
We have no tables left.
Members only.

Saying we can't fulfill that order because you're a ****ing homo is different.

padd b1975 · 27-02-2015 9:35am

Daith wrote: »

Saying we can't fulfill that order because you're a ****ing homo is different.

Incorrect.

They disagreed with gay marriage, that is all.
Don't think that should ever be considered a crime.

keeponhurling · 27-02-2015 9:37am

From the OP it seems to say the baker refused the cake cos it had a gay slogan, rather than because the customer was gay.

The law doesn't seem that bad to me.

The thread title "anti-gay legislation" also seems a bit misleading

Daith · 27-02-2015 9:42am

padd b1975 wrote: »

Incorrect.

They disagreed with gay marriage, that is all.
Don't think that should ever be considered a crime.

I never said that's what the owners said. No need to put words in my mouth or jump to conclusions.

keeponhurling wrote: »

The law doesn't seem that bad to me.

The thread title "anti-gay legislation" also seems a bit misleading

Hold on. The law they are talking about is a new law so you would be permitted to not to do business based on the sexuality of the customer. Not just slogans. That doesn't seem bad?

md23040 · 27-02-2015 10:05am

Pherekydes wrote: »

List some valid reasons...

Scenario - You are related to Alan Hennings, the British aid worker recently beheaded and you own a bakery. A bunch of Muslims come into your bakery and ask for a cake with an ISIS flag on it with the slogan Death to the West. Are you obliged to make that cake or should the full force of the law be used to pursue you?

Or someone goes into Finglas bakery asks for a Union Jack cake with some derogatory anti-Irish or anti Catholic slogans. Neither of these things might be illegal under the terms of the law.

Lets get this into context - someone went out of their way to be offended and knew the consequences. The Bakery didn't refuse to make them a cake on the grounds of their sexual orientation and where happy to bake the cake but not supply the slogan. They should be fully within their rights to refuse to not include any slogan - same as the above examples, or forcing a Muslim cafe to make you a bacon buttie even if you provide the bacon.

The law will not be enacted because it is impossible to police something so subjective that can not be measured, but equally it is ridiculous the equality commission and PC brigade taking action. As said the laws as ass and other bakeries could consider the business.

Daith · 27-02-2015 10:17am

md23040 wrote: »

Scenario - You are related to Alan Hennings, the British aid worker recently beheaded and you own a bakery. A bunch of Muslims come into your bakery and ask for a cake with an ISIS flag on it with the slogan Death to the West. Are you obliged to make that cake or should the full force of the law be used to pursue you?

And the answer isn't to create a law that would mean you are free to discriminate against Muslims.

The answer would be that business are not required to print slogans or messages they disagree with.

It's quite an over reaction from the people behind the new bill.

floggg · 27-02-2015 10:19am

md23040 wrote: »

Scenario - You are related to Alan Hennings, the British aid worker recently beheaded and you own a bakery. A bunch of Muslims come into your bakery and ask for a cake with an ISIS flag on it with the slogan Death to the West. Are you obliged to make that cake or should the full force of the law be used to pursue you?

Or someone goes into Finglas bakery asks for a Union Jack cake with some derogatory anti-Irish or anti Catholic slogans. Neither of these things might be illegal under the terms of the law.

Lets get this into context - someone went out of their way to be offended and knew the consequences. The Bakery didn't refuse to make them a cake on the grounds of their sexual orientation and where happy to bake the cake but not supply the slogan. They should be fully within their rights to refuse to not include any slogan - same as the above examples, or forcing a Muslim cafe to make you a bacon buttie even if you provide the bacon.

The law will not be enacted because it is impossible to police something so subjective that can not be measured, but equally it is ridiculous the equality commission and PC brigade taking action. As said the laws as ass and other bakeries could consider the business.

Depends. If you were happily make cakes wishing death to other people's or ethnic groups you could well have a problem. You'd need to have a clear and objective policy setting out what death cakes are and aren't acceptable which was applied equally and consistently, and show that the decision was one that wasn't based on race, religion or political* views.

If however you had a general policy against death cakes applied equally to all then you wouldn't have any problem.

Of course, actually considering what the law requires isn't half as much fun as coming up with far fetched and absurd scenarios. Pretty sure ISIS members in NI aren't dumb enough to actually order ISIS themes death cakes. Seems the quickest way to get on a terrorism watch list I can possibly think of.

* I belive NI legislation covers discrimination on grounds of political views (which is prudent given the divisive political history there).

lazybones32 · 27-02-2015 10:25am

Nobody will let them eat cake...so we need a Revolution!

Didn't realise that Ashers were the only bakery in Belfast. It's not like this could be a specific target case...I'm sure that man/group has no specific agenda other than Justice.

spiralism · 27-02-2015 10:30am

The DUP in NI are by a distance the most far right party with any semblance of power in Europe, or anywhere i can think of from the top of my head for that matter. They'd make Nigel Farage cringe. Ideologically at the very least on a par with the likes of the BNP, Front National or PVV if not worse.

Daith · 27-02-2015 10:36am

lazybones32 wrote: »

Didn't realise that Ashers were the only bakery in Belfast. It's not like this could be a specific target case

Once again, the only victims of homophobia are the homophobes.

FairytaleGirl · 27-02-2015 10:45am

But if I were to pass it would mean taking a huge step backwards for equality. It's cake now, it could be refusing me and my girlfriend a double room (or a room at all) in a hotel next week, or refusing to lease us a one bedroom apartment next month
Etc etc

Uncle Ruckus · 27-02-2015 10:47am

hfallada wrote: »

How is that England is liberal and yet NI is so backwards. They both have Church of Ireland/Catholics. But their social views are literally polar opposites.

Most of the Protestants in N.I. are not Church of Ireland/England. They are Presbyterians/ Scottish dissenters. They take the bible literally and super serious.

spiralism · 27-02-2015 10:48am

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

But if I were to pass it would mean taking a huge step backwards for equality. It's cake now, it could be refusing me and my girlfriend a double room (or a room at all) in a hotel next week, or refusing to lease us a one bedroom apartment next month
Etc etc

This is the main issue. It legally would allow a bar to put up a sign saying "no gays" for example

floggg · 27-02-2015 10:50am

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

But if I were to pass it would mean taking a huge step backwards for equality. It's cake now, it could be refusing me and my girlfriend a double room (or a room at all) in a hotel next week, or refusing to lease us a one bedroom apartment next month
Etc etc

Or medical treatment...

padd b1975 · 27-02-2015 10:51am

Daith wrote: »

Once again, the only victims of homophobia are the homophobes.

Having someone express the view they don't agree with gay marriage is homophobia??

Jesus Christ!!!
That term is so diluted and misused now, it's almost meaningless.

PopePalpatine · 27-02-2015 10:54am

padd b1975 wrote: »

Having someone express the view they don't agree with gay marriage is homophobia??

Jesus Christ!!!
That term is so diluted and misused now, it's almost meaningless.

Well, I suppose your kind are trying anything to make yourselves feel better. :rolleyes:

arayess · 27-02-2015 10:57am

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

But if I were to pass it would mean taking a huge step backwards for equality. It's cake now, it could be refusing me and my girlfriend a double room (or a room at all) in a hotel next week, or refusing to lease us a one bedroom apartment next month
Etc etc

my neighbour is an old woman who has bedsits and refuses to let to unmarried couples.
It has never caused a row people just move on.

Taking her to court would be a travesty fo justice , she wants a certain (misguided imo ) level of decorum in her establishment (paid for by her earnings) I really don't see why people are going bananas over stuff like this.

People getting upset over others not approving of this lifestyle is sensitive in the extreme .
Yes you shouldn't abused over it or discriminated by state services.
But if a shop doesn't want to make gay slogans so be it, go to the next one.

Why this forcing of acceptance on people and not just leave them to it which is want I always understood gay people wanted anyway - to be left carry on living their lives. Why the desire to enforce that on people who would rather not get involved and want to be left alone.

One eyed Jack · 27-02-2015 11:02am

Daith wrote: »

Hold on. The law they are talking about is a new law so you would be permitted to not to do business based on the sexuality of the customer. Not just slogans. That doesn't seem bad?

No, that's not what the law is about at all. The 'conscience clause' being proposed is that nobody should be made to conduct their business in a manner in which they have an objection to, based on their religious beliefs. That's a good thing for some people, and a bad thing for other people. It just depends upon which side of the fence you're on.

Personally I don't see any compelling reason to force a business owner to act in a manner which contravenes their religious beliefs, it's got nothing to do with equality, and more to do with how businesses which provide a service to the public are regulated.

If a business refuses to offer their services to a person for any reason, that's an inconvenience to the person, granted, but there are many other service providers willing to provide their services to that person. The equality laws should only apply to employers and employees IMO, and who they choose to provide their services to should be their own business.

Anti-gay legislation proposed in Northern Ireland

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