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2015 RBS Six Nations General Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

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Comments

  • #602
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    England
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I realise that as well. I just don't think it's working properly. I don't understand what a player who is perfectly positioned below the incoming ball is supposed to do! If Russell had competed in the air he would have come off a lot worse given the way Biggar came flying in.

    You should be able to take account of the opposition, judge whether any chaser is going to be able to contest the reception and then act accordingly. Players are well capable of this, I'm sure even Russell can do this the vast majority of the time.


  • #603
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,564 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    You should be able to take account of the opposition, judge whether any chaser is going to be able to contest the reception and then act accordingly. Players are well capable of this, I'm sure even Russell can do this the vast majority of the time.

    What does act accordingly mean? Get out of the way and just let the onrushing player have the ball?
    The difference between hitting a player in the air and while you have an anchor point on the ground is huge

    Yeah...and if Russell had jumped vertically up he would have been absolutely pummelled by the oncoming Biggar.


  • #604
    Zzippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    England
    aimee1 wrote: »
    Pape hearing adjourned until tomorrow for further legal discussions

    I wonder what possible legal discussions could be raised :confused:
    He was cited for hitting a player with his knee - it's obvious he did it, and he's apologised to Heaslip. The only question is intent, which is surely what the citing commission will adjudicate on. The process of citing is well established so I wonder what possible legal problems could be raised before a hearing is even held...


  • #605
    Wang King
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭Wang King


    France
    There is no legal angle at all to this
    Its just normal deliberation and they have adjourned until tomorrow and then make a decision


  • #606
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    Wang King wrote: »
    There is no legal angle at all to this
    Its just normal deliberation and they have adjourned until tomorrow and then make a decision

    dunno, seems a bit going on more then usual

    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/pascal-pape-s-disciplinary-case-adjourned-until-thursday-1.2108715


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  • #607
    Wang King
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭Wang King


    France
    aimee1 wrote: »
    dunno, seems a bit going on more then usual

    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/pascal-pape-s-disciplinary-case-adjourned-until-thursday-1.2108715

    No legal angle to it though.
    Just taking time over it considering the act itself, the consequences, the refs report, the players contrition, his previous good record
    Probably get a 6 week ban


  • #608
    mfceiling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,992 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Zzippy wrote: »
    I wonder what possible legal discussions could be raised :confused:
    He was cited for hitting a player with his knee - it's obvious he did it, and he's apologised to Heaslip. The only question is intent, which is surely what the citing commission will adjudicate on. The process of citing is well established so I wonder what possible legal problems could be raised before a hearing is even held...


    Could there be a case of assault here? I'm no legal eagle - where is the line drawn on what happens during a match and what would constitute a legal hearing?


  • #609
    jacothelad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Ah look there's a world of difference between taking a step or two to position yourself under the ball to field it and what you're talking about. How often does the ball land exactly where the full back was standing when it was kicked? Answer: almost never.

    What were Russells options? Literally the only way he could have avoided this was by standing back and leaving the ball to Biggar. And what kind of option is that!?

    Let's look at what actually happened here:
    • Biggar kicks and gives chase
    • Russell tries to position himself under the ball to field it
    • Biggar jumps in the air to try and beat Russell to the ball
    • Russell tries to avoid Biggar the moment he realises the Welshman is in the air
    • Biggar collides with Russell

    If anything Biggar was the reckless party in that. Russell stayed on the ground, kept his eye on the ball and tried to get out of Biggars way when he realised that Biggar was in the air.

    Biggar knew full well that Russell was going to try and field that ball. He jumped specifically to beat Russell to it and retain possession and went foot first into Russells head and upper body.

    The only real options open to Russell here were to compete in the air from a near standing start or just leave the ball be completely. Neither of those make any sense. He'd have come off worse in the air because of Biggars momentum and both players would have been at greater risk. And just leaving the opposition to have the ball would mean that a kicking game like that would guarantee possession every time if the defence can't go anywhere near the chaser like that.

    Common sense must prevail here. A guy tried to catch a ball while another guy jumped into him. You can't blame the guy who was standing on the ground for that.

    Hear! Hear! Russell is perfectly entitled to stand his ground to field a high ball. There is no law in Rugby Union that prohibits a player from doing so. He did not deliberately pick that patch of ground because of Biggar but because his brain told him that is where the ball will land. Biggar was the cause of the clash, not Russell. A player simply can't jump recklessly - or worse, deliberately - into another static player. There is a difference between a player deliberately taking an airborne opponent out and a genuine accident.
    Suppose Russell stood with his back to Biggar in order to make a catch over his shoulder as players do from time to time. If he absolutely can't see Biggar is he still at fault?


  • #610
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    England
    Has it been mentioned that Russell's been banned for two weeks.
    Gregor Townsend wrote:
    I apologise to all those rugby players that I have coached in my career. Keeping your eye on the ball = 2 week ban


  • #611
    errlloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,633 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    England
    mfceiling wrote: »
    Could there be a case of assault here? I'm no legal eagle - where is the line drawn on what happens during a match and what would constitute a legal hearing?

    If there was a case for assault he'd be arrested and charged, it wouldn't get brought up in the citing hearing. I presume by legal they mean there is some argument going on about the interpretation of the laws. I guess it is complex and the angles aren't the best.


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  • #612
    molloyjh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,767 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Clearlier wrote: »
    Either jump for every high ball or time their run to hit the catcher as they hit the deck. Watch Kearney and you'll see him do just that all the time. I think we agree (correct me if I'm wrong) that Biggar jumping into a space already occupied is Biggar's responsibility to stay safe. What we disagree on is whether Russell was close enough to that position to describe him as static. I don't think that he is. I agree that he hasn't got far to go and it looks to me like he hesitates initially and decides to compete in the air but then changes his mind and pulls out. Either way he moves from a position 2 or 3 metres away from where he collided with Biggar and that's far too big a movement for me to say that Russell occupied a space into which Biggar jumped. They arrived more or less simultaneously but with Biggar in the air and Russell on the ground.

    What Kearney does he does when chasing the ball. Russell was not chasing it. He also didn't hesitate. He had to wait to see exactly where the ball was going to land. In that position you'll never see a player leave attackers have the ball and tackle them once they have it. It was right on the Scottish 22.

    I also don't get all this talk of Russell needing to be aware of his surroundings and Biggar not. They guy with the momentum and who made the decision not to try and tackle Russell but instead throw himself into the air it would seem has absolutely no responsibility in all of this, which I find baffling.


  • #613
    jacothelad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Could there be a case of assault here? I'm no legal eagle - where is the line drawn on what happens during a match and what would constitute a legal hearing?
    errlloyd wrote: »
    If there was a case for assault he'd be arrested and charged, it wouldn't get brought up in the citing hearing. I presume by legal they mean there is some argument going on about the interpretation of the laws. I guess it is complex and the angles aren't the best.

    What Pape did was common assault. The fact that it happened on a rugby field is no mitigation in law. Players have been arrested - and even jailed for such actions on then pitch.


  • #614
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,921 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    England
    surely the kicker also has some partial responsibility....

    if he kicks the ball straight down the throat of a player who does not have to move to catch the ball, (adjusting feet wouldnt count) then that player shouldnt be penalized for standing the ground in order to receive the ball. It would actually be reckless on the kicker if he jumped knee first into a standing catcher.....


  • #615
    Joanna Stocky Chair
    Posts: 0 ✭ Joanna Stocky Chair


    I would like to talk about the jumping/in the air thing, but think we should move it to the laws thread?


  • #616
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I would like to talk about the jumping/in the air thing, but think we should move it to the laws thread?

    I'll just move the posts from the point of ban.


  • #617
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wales
    Are there any coaches weighing in on the two yellow cards from last weekend? I'm curious to know the exact message that the IRB are trying to put forward; don't touch a man in the air under any circumstances?


  • #618
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    England
    Rory Kockott is ruled out of the Wales game next weekend, Tillous-Borde has been called up. Thomas had already been ruled out so either Guitoune or Nakaitaci will come in.


    30-man squad:
    Atonio, Ben Arous, Debaty, Slimani, Guirado, Kayser, Maestri, Papé, Suta, Taofifenua, Chouly, Dusautoir, Goujon, Lauret, Le Roux, Nyanga.

    Parra, Tillous-Borde, Bernard, Lopez, Tales, Bastareaud, Fickou, Fofana, Lamerat, Guitoune, Huget, Nakaitaci, Dulin, Spedding.

    I'd love to see Dulin replace Spedding in the XV, doubt PSA will do so though.


  • #619
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,921 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    England
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Are there any coaches weighing in on the two yellow cards from last weekend? I'm curious to know the exact message that the IRB are trying to put forward; don't touch a man in the air under any circumstances?

    well, gregor townsend said this
    “I apologise to all those players I’ve coached in my career, Keeping your eye on the ball equals a two-week ban"


  • #620
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,564 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    total former wrote: »
    Rory Kockott is ruled out of the Wales game next weekend, Tillous-Borde has been called up. Thomas had already been ruled out so either Guitoune or Nakaitaci will come in.

    Ruled out or dropped?


  • #621
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    England
    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Ruled out or dropped?

    Quad injury


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  • #622
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    England
    sydthebeat wrote: »
    surely the kicker also has some partial responsibility....

    if he kicks the ball straight down the throat of a player who does not have to move to catch the ball, (adjusting feet wouldnt count) then that player shouldnt be penalized for standing the ground in order to receive the ball. It would actually be reckless on the kicker if he jumped knee first into a standing catcher.....

    It takes 3 strides to get into the air effectively, and the first is shortened. The only point at which a player won't be able to get into the air for the ball is when it's outside their range and they have to travel a long distance to get there, there's no point at which it's too close


  • #623
    Cheese Wagstaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Cheese Wagstaff


    England
    total former wrote: »
    Rory Kockott is ruled out of the Wales game next weekend, Tillous-Borde has been called up. Thomas had already been ruled out so either Guitoune or Nakaitaci will come in.


    30-man squad:
    Atonio, Ben Arous, Debaty, Slimani, Guirado, Kayser, Maestri, Papé, Suta, Taofifenua, Chouly, Dusautoir, Goujon, Lauret, Le Roux, Nyanga.

    Parra, Tillous-Borde, Bernard, Lopez, Tales, Bastareaud, Fickou, Fofana, Lamerat, Guitoune, Huget, Nakaitaci, Dulin, Spedding.

    I'd love to see Dulin replace Spedding in the XV, doubt PSA will do so though.

    Fickou also brought back in. He won't dislodge either of the two lads in the centre so far though. Bench spot maybe?


  • #624
    English Lurker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 609 ✭✭✭English Lurker


    Am I the only one who thinks, dangerous as Fofana and Bastareud are as individual runners, they're probably not the greatest pairing and France could really use a distributor?


  • #625
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    England
    English Lurker wrote: »
    Am I the only one who thinks, dangerous as Fofana and Bastareud are as individual runners, they're probably not the greatest pairing and France could really use a distributor?

    Brian Smith wrote an excellent snippet the other week for one of the English papers about how he always though that a midfield partnership needed a distributor until he got to international level as a coach, and then he realised that it doesn't hold for international rugby in the same way it does for club rugby. Can't remember where I saw that article now.


  • #626
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    After the wee fracas on the ABs thread, and to amuse myself

    Lions XV: selection criteria - in current 6N squads of the B&I teams (or would have been if not injured) and born in the SH

    15 Jared Payne (Ireland, NZ)
    14 Sean Maitland (Scotland, NZ)
    13 Manu Tuilagi (England, Samoa)
    12 Brad Barritt (England, SA)
    11
    10 Gareth Anscombe (Wales, NZ)
    9 Isaac Boss (Ireland, NZ)
    8 Billy Vunipola (England, Aust)
    7 Blair Cowan (Scotland, NZ)
    6 Toby Faletau (Wales, Tonga)
    5 Robbie Diack (Ireland, SA)
    4
    3 Nathan White (Ireland, NZ)
    2 Dylan Hartley (England, NZ)
    1 Mako Vunipola (England, NZ)

    And look, only 13 players, so Tony Ward gets his wish! There's even competition for places, so poor old Bent & Strauss miss out.


  • #627
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    England
    Stick Semesa Rokoduguni in on the left wing and you're almost there.


  • #628
    thomond2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    total former wrote: »
    Stick Semesa Rokoduguni in on the left wing and you're almost there.

    Michael Paterson, kiwi second row played for England vs BaaBaas.


  • #629
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    total former wrote: »
    Stick Semesa Rokoduguni in on the left wing and you're almost there.
    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Michael Paterson, kiwi second row played for England vs BaaBaas.

    Tony Ward says no!


  • #630
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,921 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    England
    Ben Toolis, born in australia ;)


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  • #631
    Clearlier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    England
    Nathan Hines is still playing I think and he actually played for the Lions too!


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