Pressures around Church weddings

Neyite · 11-02-2015 04:26PM

Dog of Tears wrote: »

Or maybe she'd like to keep her mother and granny happy.
Doesn't really matter why, the poster has indicated that his partner wants a church wedding.

No. Partner does NOT want a church wedding. But their family member does and they feel that there will be too much fallout from their decision to go against the tide, so wants to just go along with it. Blackmailed basically.

5starpool · 11-02-2015 04:30PM

Dog of Tears wrote: »

Got married in a church even though I'm a non-believer.
At the end of the day, I could have been a stubborn prick about it, but I knew the OH wanted a church wedding and her family would have been disappointed if we'd gone civil.

It's not something I felt strongly enough about to create a fuss.

Exactly this for me. I'm getting married this year and it's in a church because my OH wanted to, despite not being particularly religious. I'm not at all all religious, but it doesn't bother me to have to lie to a dude in a dress who is talking about his imaginary friend, as it's what my OH would prefer. I don't think it's hypocritical at all, it's just doing what will make her happiest on the day, and if the parents get a bit of bonus happiness then no harm either, but I'm not doing it for them.

One eyed Jack · 11-02-2015 04:32PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

Well they'd all have to say that regardless of whether or not it's true if the family culture embraces indoctrination. It's one of the reasons the Catholic Church has so many pretend Catholics, fear of upsetting the family by coming out with doubt.

Sort of nonsense is this? You don't take someone at their word, fine, but if you were to apply that same logic to people who identify as homosexual, who were in fear of their family by coming out, would you be sneering at them for "pretending to be heterosexual"? "Family culture".... what? :rolleyes:

My wife's family are all non-religious (they don't identify as atheist, they just don't give a shít), and we'd a civil ceremony, simply because we didn't want the big white wedding with all the trimmings. My brother did the big white wedding even though both he and his wife do identify as atheist, because they wanted the white wedding in a church. My sister converted to Islam and got married and divorced, is now non-religious, and the other two brothers are waiting to see what happens with the referendum in a few months, while my brother in law is getting heat from his boyfriend to get married. They live in London but the boyfriend wants to get married in Scotland where his folks are from!

Tbh I can't understand why people who disagree on the whole wedding arrangements would even think of getting married in the first place if they can't even agree on where or how they want to get married. I mean, this is the person you want to spend the rest of your life with, and I get that some people have things they won't compromise on, but there's more to a marriage than just the ceremony!

11-02-2015 04:39PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

Well they'd all have to say that regardless of whether or not it's true if the family culture embraces indoctrination. It's one of the reasons the Catholic Church has so many pretend Catholics, fear of upsetting the family by coming out with doubt.

Well it is true, there is no pretending involved. There is no fear of upsetting anyone either they would just get on with it.

MrWalsh · 11-02-2015 04:43PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Sort of nonsense is this? You don't take someone at their word, fine, but if you were to apply that same logic to people who identify as homosexual, who were in fear of their family by coming out, would you be sneering at them for "pretending to be heterosexual"? "Family culture".... what? :rolleyes:

It's unlikely, to say the least, that an entire family in modern Ireland are full on believing, practicing Catholics. What's far more likely is that family pressure causes some people to pretend. That's what family culture is, apologies if you didn't understand the term.

And yes, you could indeed apply the same logic to an lgbt person, in fact that is why many lgbt people delay coming out. Fear of being ostracised by the family is very real.

No sneering at all. In fact, I have great sympathy for people who feel they cannot truly be themselves due to family culture (or family pressures if you have a better understanding of that phrase). It's extremely difficult for many people to be the person in the family who is "different".

Hence, they'd all have to say that if the family culture embraces indoctrination. It's common sense really.

chopperbyrne · 11-02-2015 04:47PM

Civil ceremony, but then had to get the child baptised so he can go to the local school when he's old enough.

That's far worse than being forced into a church wedding.

MrWalsh · 11-02-2015 04:48PM

Galilea Cold Miner wrote: »

Well it is true, there is no pretending involved. There is no fear of upsetting anyone either they would just get on with it.

I understand that you think it's true, but I personally think that such uniformity within a single family is unlikely. Particularly if any family members have been to college, lived away from home, travelled etc, by that I mean, been exposed to other ways of thinking besides the family way.

How do you know they'd just get on with it if no one has ever done anything different?

Would you be happy enough to go home now and say you'd decided to take up Islam or Scientology for example? Would everyone just go "that's grand"?

Dog of Tears · 11-02-2015 04:50PM

Neyite wrote: »

^^^This.
If my partner had faith and it meant a lot to them to have a religious service, then yes, I'd suck it up because its meaningful to one of us and I would do it because I love them.

No, I don't get it.

Why does it matter whether she wants the Church wedding because she is religious or because she would like to keep her mother happy.

Presumably your partner loves her mother so that is a meaningful reason for her to have a church wedding.

Why would you be willing to compromise for your partners religious beliefs but not for her love of her mother?

It doesn't make sense.

Baggy Trousers · 11-02-2015 04:51PM

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Civil ceremony, but then had to get the child baptised so he can go to the local school when he's old enough.

Most schools don't push too hard for proof of baptism. Ours were not baptised and the local catholic ethos school did request the baptism cert once but never followed it up. They are more concerned about keeping the numbers up for the teacher/pupil ratio. There are loads in the school that are not catholics, probably 20%. The principal is brilliant and makes sure it's never an issue.

MrWalsh · 11-02-2015 04:51PM

Dog of Tears wrote: »

No, I don't get it.

Why does it matter whether she wants the Church wedding because she is religious or because she would like to keep her mother happy.

Presumably your partner lover her mother so that is a meaningful reason for her to have a church wedding.

Why would you be willing to compromise for your partners religious beliefs but not for her love of her mother?

It doesn't make sense.

Course it makes sense. The first reason is not hypocritical.

Dog of Tears · 11-02-2015 04:54PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

Course it makes sense. The first reason is not hypocritical.

They're both equally hypocritical for the husband actually.

seenitall · 11-02-2015 04:56PM

Dog of Tears wrote: »

No, I don't get it.

Why does it matter whether she wants the Church wedding because she is religious or because she would like to keep her mother happy.

Presumably your partner lover her mother so that is a meaningful reason for her to have a church wedding.

Why would you be willing to compromise for your partners religious beliefs but not for her love of her mother?

It doesn't make sense.

I can't answer for Neyite, but I can see a clear difference between compromising my position for the sake of sincerely held beliefs of my partner in what is a decision made between the two of us, and on the other hand, compromising my position so as to facilitate a third party's interfering influence on a decision that is, and should stay, between the two of us alone.

Ronan|Raven · 11-02-2015 04:57PM

We had a Civil Cermony in the hotel where we got married.

It is what we both wanted as we are not religious in the least. We were lucky in that our families respected our wishes.

I was pleasantly surprised by the positive reactions from some of the more religious guests in attendance who felt we were right to stick to our wishes and not have a church wedding for the sake of it.

Each to their own I say.

Zebra3 · 11-02-2015 04:59PM

Few things more cringeworthy than being at a church wedding as one or two non-religious people start their married lives off with a bunch of lies, and everyone knows there's a serious lack of cojones involved.

Pathetic losers.

Dog of Tears · 11-02-2015 05:00PM

seenitall wrote: »

I can't answer for Neyite, but I can see a clear difference between compromising my position for the sake of sincerely held beliefs of my partner in what is a decision made between the two of us, and on the other hand, compromising my position so as to facilitate a third party's interfering influence on a decision that is, and should stay, between the two of us alone.

What is it's your partner's sincerely held belief that she would like a church wedding for the sake of her mother?

kylith · 11-02-2015 05:01PM

Dog of Tears wrote: »

No, I don't get it.

Why does it matter whether she wants the Church wedding because she is religious or because she would like to keep her mother happy.

Presumably your partner loves her mother so that is a meaningful reason for her to have a church wedding.

Why would you be willing to compromise for your partners religious beliefs but not for her love of her mother?

It doesn't make sense.

Because the OH is not religious. She does not want a religious wedding. She is being bullied, pressured, or blackmailed into it. Her mother is trying to deny Neyite's fiancée her wedding day in favour of what she wants. That is unfair. The mother had her wedding.

What Neyite and his OH do does not affect her. Who will be affected is the OH who will spend the rest of her life knowing that she will never have the wedding that she wanted and may resent her mother for it.

Why can her mother not accept what her daughter wants to do for her wedding out of love for her?

drumswan · 11-02-2015 05:02PM

5starpool wrote: »

Exactly this for me. I'm getting married this year and it's in a church because my OH wanted to, despite not being particularly religious. I'm not at all all religious, but it doesn't bother me to have to lie to a dude in a dress who is talking about his imaginary friend, as it's what my OH would prefer.

True, for a lot of blokes the wedding and the marriage means nothing to them really, they'd go along with any tripe old being spouted during the ceremony

obriendj · 11-02-2015 05:05PM

I am currently in the same boat and there has yet to be a comprise made so there is continuing to be ongoing tension in the house and with the in-laws. So much so that we haven't spoken to the OH folks in a few weeks.
It was a nightmare scenario.

And I agree with what most of you are saying. It's not Her decision if the influence of the parents is the reason for the decision.

mikom · 11-02-2015 05:06PM

"My mammy want's me to have Joe Dolan's "Good looking woman" as our first dance at the wedding".
"I'll do it cos I is a good boy".

Grow a pair of balls, folks, and stop bowing and scraping to family and voodoo gods.

jaja321 · 11-02-2015 05:06PM

drumswan wrote: »

True, for a lot of blokes the wedding and the marriage means nothing to them really, they'd go along with any tripe old being spouted during the ceremony

The marriage means nothing to them?

One eyed Jack · 11-02-2015 05:06PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

I understand that you think it's true, but I personally think that such uniformity within a single family is unlikely. Particularly if any family members have been to college, lived away from home, travelled etc, by that I mean, been exposed to other ways of thinking besides the family way.

How do you know they'd just get on with it if no one has ever done anything different?

Would you be happy enough to go home now and say you'd decided to take up Islam or Scientology for example? Would everyone just go "that's grand"?

Can only speak for my own experience of my sister coming home having converted to Islam to marry her boyfriend, but nobody actually gave a fiddlers, she announced her divorce on Facebook, and nobody gave a fiddlers then either.

I think you're projecting your own ideas you call "family culture" on other people tbh. Most people would simply call that tradition, and even then you'd still be projecting from the 1950's or somewhere else other than Ireland in 2015.

seenitall · 11-02-2015 05:09PM

Dog of Tears wrote: »

What is it's your partner's sincerely held belief that she would like a church wedding for the sake of her mother?

To be honest, I would be questionioning why do someone else's - anyone else's - wishes have to feature in what we as a couple decide to do. As far as I'm concerned, this kind of deference to a third party's ideas in the matter of a union between two people do not bode well for the union in question.

The situation would definitely put my back up, no doubt about it. But I'm not Neyite, hopefully she and her intended will find a way to resolve it.

Eutow · 11-02-2015 05:09PM

Dog of Tears wrote: »

No, I don't get it.

Why does it matter whether she wants the Church wedding because she is religious or because she would like to keep her mother happy.

Yes, you don't seem to be getting it. It matters because she is doing something that she is not fully happy with. If somebody wants a church wedding, fine, no problem, but if somebody feels they have to do it in case they upset a relative then that is not okay.

Dog of Tears wrote: »

Presumably your partner loves her mother so that is a meaningful reason for her to have a church wedding.

Presumably, the mother loves her daughter and wants her to be happy, no matter how the daughter wishes to celebrate the wedding day. So, the mother should be able to put her personal beliefs to one side because it is the daughter's and future son-in-law's day, not the mother's day.

Dog of Tears wrote: »

Why would you be willing to compromise for your partners religious beliefs but not for her love of her mother?.

It doesn't make sense.

The poster you responded to is not getting married to the mother but his future wife, if you can't see the difference then.....

drumswan · 11-02-2015 05:13PM

jaja321 wrote: »

The marriage means nothing to them?

How much can it mean if they show no interest in the ceremony affirming it? The idea of making solemn lifelong vows amongst a load of twaddle you dont believe in the least is an insult to your partner, your vows and your guests IMO. But a lot of blokes just dont give a ****e, sure they'll have a few jars on the day anyway.

Neyite · 11-02-2015 05:21PM

Dog of Tears wrote: »

No, I don't get it.

Why does it matter whether she wants the Church wedding because she is religious or because she would like to keep her mother happy.

Presumably your partner loves her mother so that is a meaningful reason for her to have a church wedding.

Why would you be willing to compromise for your partners religious beliefs but not for her love of her mother?

It doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense. Why should I compromise for a third party who has no role whatsoever in the ceremony, in my relationship, or in my potential marriage?

A wedding is between two people. And I'm female by the way. Its the groom who feels he has to ignore what he feels in his heart and soul is the right thing to do, in order to appease his female family member. In order to make a guest happy, both the bride and groom will be unhappy. Where is the compromise in that?

seenitall wrote: »

I can't answer for Neyite, but I can see a clear difference between compromising my position for the sake of sincerely held beliefs of my partner in what is a decision made between the two of us, and on the other hand, compromising my position so as to facilitate a third party's interfering influence on a decision that is, and should stay, between the two of us alone.

seenitall wrote: »

To be honest, I would be questionioning why do someone else's - anyone else's - wishes have to feature in what we as a couple decide to do. As far as I'm concerned, this kind of deference to a third party's ideas in the matter of a union between two people do not bode well for the union in question.

The situation would definitely put my back up, no doubt about it. But I'm not Neyite, hopefully she and her intended will find a way to resolve it.

^^ wot she said.

MrWalsh · 11-02-2015 05:25PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think you're projecting your own ideas you call "family culture" on other people tbh. Most people would simply call that tradition, and even then you'd still be projecting from the 1950's or somewhere else other than Ireland in 2015.

Thanks One Eyed Jack, that question was actually for Nox. I could have gone home and announced I was converting to anything (more shocking probably would have been if I had gone home and announced I was taking Catholicism seriously!), but my family culture didn't include religious indoctrination, and there is no way anyone would have described us as "all practicing Catholics". But Nox says that that is true of his family, hence I asked him if it would matter if he decided to change religion. Obviously if your family are not all of one faith or care about one faith it wouldn't matter. But Nox has claimed he is a "real" Catholic, not a sham, goes to mass every week etc, so I'm curious to know if such a family of real Catholics would accept that.

Family culture is a widely recognised academic concept, I can recommend some further reading for you if you wish to learn more on the subject?

eviltwin · 11-02-2015 05:37PM

We had a civil ceremony, a few people had issues with it and refused to attend, most were fine. We're not religious so no one who knows us would have expected a church do. I feel sorry for anyone who feels forced to compromise on their day, I couldn't do that. A wedding should be representative of the couple, not done to placate a selfish family member.

11-02-2015 05:40PM

MrWalsh wrote: »

I understand that you think it's true, but I personally think that such uniformity within a single family is unlikely. Particularly if any family members have been to college, lived away from home, travelled etc, by that I mean, been exposed to other ways of thinking besides the family way.

How extended in family are you talking about when talking about uniformity?

I know myself or my two siblings are not pretending and all three of us have gone to college, lived away for a while or are living away from home. My parents obviously and the majority of my aunts and uncles also. Only really have one aunt who I wouldn't really call religious and her kids ( my cousins) are really the only ones not on a path to continuing to be Catholics. Bar them (and my own siblings) all my other cousins are 18 or under and go to mass with their parents etc.

MrWalsh wrote: »

Would you be happy enough to go home now and say you'd decided to take up Islam or Scientology for example? Would everyone just go "that's grand"?

Absolutely, my parents or other relations would be fine about it. Of course they may initially try to advise against it but after that they would not make an issue of it. How do I know you ask, well I know and am very close to my family and know exactly how they feel about things.

Malari · 11-02-2015 05:41PM

eviltwin wrote: »

We had a civil ceremony, a few people had issues with it and refused to attend, most were fine. We're not religious so no one who knows us would have expected a church do. I feel sorry for anyone who feels forced to compromise on their day, I couldn't do that. A wedding should be representative of the couple, not done to placate a selfish family member.

Totally agree. It's something I'd compromise on for a partner, but not a family member. But then I wouldn't be in a relationship with a person who was religious and wanted a church wedding in any case. And anyone who knows us knows a civil ceremony is the only viable option anyway.

Buona Fortuna · 11-02-2015 05:42PM

We got married in RCC church even though I was baptised a prod.

It didn't bother me then and it doesn't now. It kept everyone happy.

There are a few things in life that are worth dying in a ditch for - this wasn't one of them.

Pressures around Church weddings

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