Clare Daly TD

Muahahaha · 10-02-2015 12:55PM #1

I've got to say fair play to Clare Daly and her bill on fatal fetal abnormalities, I admire her for never giving up the fight. The government are calling her bill unconstitutional yet they wouldn't allow her see the ruling from the Attorney General. 81% of the Irish public were in favour of legislating on fatal fetal abnormalities on Claire Bynes poll last night but the govt. just wants to kick the abortion can down the road a few years if they can. But Clare Daly keeps chipping and chipping away at it and now today the government will whip their TD's into voting against a bill that would put an end to forcing women to carrying a dead baby inside of them for months till it is 'born'.

She really has been one of the best performers in this Dail and on this issue alone it is very difficult to disagree with anything she says. The govt are saying they don't intend legislating for this because 'they have no mandate' yet its pretty obvious that any sane person would not wish a woman to carry a baby inside her that is going to last only a few minutes outside of the womb. It's barbaric for the state to control women's bodies in that way and its obvious by opinion polls that the vast majority of people feel that way yet our government seems to be doing their best to avoid legislating for the anomaly

Fair play to Clare Daly for highlighting their ineptitude in the face of overwhelming public support for her bill.

gandalf · 10-02-2015 02:11PM

TBH the mainstream parties run a mile from anything to do with abortion.

Credit where credit is due. I really do not see how anyone with a shred of decency could appose the affected people having a choice on what to do when they are faced with fatal fetal abnormalities. It should always be the choice and the business of the effected people and no one else.

BoJack Horseman · 10-02-2015 02:17PM

Much kudos to Daly for this effort.

Its a shame its stymied by a FG fear of a civil war within its ranks.

Oh for an economically centrist /socially liberal party..... Why can't we have one!

marienbad · 10-02-2015 02:22PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Much kudos to Daly for this effort.

Its a shame its stymied by a FG fear of a civil war within its ranks.

Oh for an economically centrist /socially liberal party..... Why can't we have one!

Not just FG I think .

BoJack Horseman · 10-02-2015 02:37PM

marienbad wrote: »

Not just FG I think .

Well, if Labour decided to vote with Daly on this bill, it wouldn't cause much of an issue internally.... there isn't really a religious conservative wing in the party.

However, when a do-nothing fudge of a bill like the "protection of life during...." bill split FG.
Going further would devastate them.

marienbad · 10-02-2015 02:48PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Well, if Labour decided to vote with Daly on this bill, it wouldn't cause much of an issue internally.... there isn't really a religious conservative wing in the party.

However, when a do-nothing fudge of a bill like the "protection of life during...." bill split FG.
Going further would devastate them.

It might , but the same would apply to FF if they had their usual numbers and to some of the independents .

But no one is going to nail their colours to the mast on a bill that has no chance .

FTA69 · 10-02-2015 02:59PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Much kudos to Daly for this effort.

Its a shame its stymied by a FG fear of a civil war within its ranks.

Oh for an economically centrist /socially liberal party..... Why can't we have one!

Spot on. The abortion stuff has gone absolutely nowhere, not because the average person doesn't want to see change but because of a political inertia within the major parties. I'd say only a minority of the FF and FG parties are absolutist on this issue but they are numerous enough to cause a massive headache to whoever is in power so the issue gets sidelined and round and round we go.

mikom · 10-02-2015 03:01PM

The independents are a blessing.
They keep stirring the pot which is one way of effecting progress in a system where parties are happy to keep the status quo with their small little balls.

Long may the independents sit.

Stabshauptmann · 10-02-2015 03:50PM

Irish constitution:
The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

This is the confines of the law.

A local county council can't legalise drink driving so long as the Dail says it's illegal.
The Dail can't pass a law that is unconstitutional.

This has nothing to do with my personal beliefs, just in relation to Daly's comment that its 100% untrue the bill is unconstitutional. Unfortunately if the foetus is still alive, legally the only way to have an abortion is if there is a risk to the mother's life.

For Reals · 10-02-2015 03:54PM

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Irish constitution:
The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

This is the confines of the law.

A local county council can't legalise drink driving so long as the Dail says it's illegal.
The Dail can't pass a law that is unconstitutional.

This has nothing to do with my personal beliefs, just in relation to Daly's comment that its 100% untrue the bill is unconstitutional. Unfortunately if the foetus is still alive, legally the only way to have an abortion is if there is a risk to the mother's life.

If this is the case, any push in that direction may assist in having it changed. Rules are there to hold society together, but antiquated ones can do the opposite too.

jobbridge4life · 10-02-2015 03:59PM

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Irish constitution:
The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

This is the confines of the law.

A local county council can't legalise drink driving so long as the Dail says it's illegal.
The Dail can't pass a law that is unconstitutional.

This has nothing to do with my personal beliefs, just in relation to Daly's comment that its 100% untrue the bill is unconstitutional. Unfortunately if the foetus is still alive, legally the only way to have an abortion is if there is a risk to the mother's life.

You say that as though there was some sort of black and white, pass-fail test that we can do to check immediately if the bill is unconstitutional. Put it in a bath of water if she floats its constitutional if it sinks its a witch!

The only way to know in concrete terms if a bill is unconstitutional is if fails a legalchallenge. Even if the majority of legal experts opine that it is unconstitutional you can be sure there are plenty to argue the opposite. Until it passes or fails judicial scrutiny all we have is people giving their informed opinions.

Larbre34 · 10-02-2015 04:03PM

I agree it should be tested, after all the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act was still passed within the confines of that amendment.

For starters you could say that a diagnosed fetal abnormality that leads to incompatibility with life would satisfy the "as far as practicable" clause.

Alan_P · 10-02-2015 04:23PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

You say that as though there was some sort of black and white, pass-fail test that we can do to check immediately if the bill is unconstitutional. Put it in a bath of water if she floats its constitutional if it sinks its a witch!

The only way to know in concrete terms if a bill is unconstitutional is if fails a legalchallenge.

True, but you should explain that to Clare Daly, who's 100% certain that it's untrue her bill is unconstitutional.This despite the fact that she has no legal qualifications or experience, unless you count the time she was jailed for breaching court orders over bin collection protests (the water charges lost cause of it's day).

The Government, of course, has followed standard practice in relation to any bill of dubious constitutionality, and asked the Attorney General. The AG, who does actually have legal qualifications, says it is unconstitutional, and I'd accept her judgement over Clare Daly's.

Tombo2001 · 10-02-2015 04:27PM

Very well put OP.

The remark that stood out this morning on the radio was when she said "Is the government actually going to govern for the people in this instance".....which is a fairly fundamental issue when ya think about it.

The other point I think worth making is that Independent TDs almost by definition need to be Single Issue politicians. They may have views on a wide range of things, but they cant influence a wide range of things. She's not looking for some gimmick like a Casino in the middle of Clondalkin.

They have one shot, and a lot of them don't use it. Tony Gregory's one shot was inner city Dublin. This is Clare Dalys one shot and she is using it well.

I think she is comfortably the stand-out Independent in the current government.

jobbridge4life · 10-02-2015 04:29PM

Alan_P wrote: »

True, but you should explain that to Clare Daly, who's 100% certain that it's untrue her bill is unconstitutional.This despite the fact that she has no legal qualifications or experience, unless you count the time she was jailed for breaching court orders over bin collection protests (the water charges lost cause of it's day).

The Government, of course, has followed standard practice in relation to any bill of dubious constitutionality, and asked the Attorney General. The AG, who does actually have legal qualifications, says it is unconstitutional, and I'd accept her judgement over Clare Daly's.

I'd wager that Daly has consulted some legal heads of her own. Not to mention that there are probably a tonne of pro-choice lawyers only too keen to make the case that this bill could be considered constitutional. Regardless I am not making any comment on the likely outcome of a challenge only that people on either said declaring the constitutionality or otherwise of a piece of law or bill as though it was fact before an actual challenge are being disingenuous.

Tombo2001 · 10-02-2015 04:30PM

Alan_P wrote: »

True, but you should explain that to Clare Daly, who's 100% certain that it's untrue her bill is unconstitutional.This despite the fact that she has no legal qualifications or experience, unless you count the time she was jailed for breaching court orders over bin collection protests (the water charges lost cause of it's day).

The Government, of course, has followed standard practice in relation to any bill of dubious constitutionality, and asked the Attorney General. The AG, who does actually have legal qualifications, says it is unconstitutional, and I'd accept her judgement over Clare Daly's.

If we are going on what they are qualified for, our politicians should be limited to governing the school system.

Alan_P · 10-02-2015 04:54PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

If we are going on what they are qualified for, our politicians should be limited to governing the school system.

Like the current and previous Minister for Health, who are both doctors ? Like the Minister for Agriculture, who has a degree in, wait for it , agricultural science ? Or the Minister for Enterprise,Jobs and Innovation who has a MPhil in Economics from Oxford ? Or the Minister for Social Protection, who has a degree in commerce and has lectured in accountancy ? Like the Minister for Finance, who has a degree in English and Economics ?

10-02-2015 04:58PM

Alan_P wrote: »

Like the current and previous Minister for Health, who are both doctors ? Like the Minister for Agriculture, who has a degree in, wait for it , agricultural science ? Or the Minister for Enterprise,Jobs and Innovation who has a MPhil in Economics from Oxford ? Or the Minister for Social Protection, who has a degree in commerce and has lectured in accountancy ? Like the Minister for Finance, who has a degree in English and Economics ?

Bit mad that you can't get a regular job these days without having a masters all the same

RobertKK · 10-02-2015 06:29PM

Clare Daly only sees one side of the argument.

I have a close relation and she had a difficult pregnancy, she was told her baby would not live beyond 40 hours, a nurse in a Dublin hospital hinted she could go abroad and have an abortion. The person in question would not support such a decision.
Her own doctor was very supportive and said that once the unborn child was alive there was always hope.
So she had to have the baby in Dublin with the newborn rushed to Crumlin.
The child is now 7 years of age, you wouldn't know there is a health problem, but that child was suppose to be long dead by now.

This diagnosis came from the top maternity hospital in the country. So I can't support a bill as if fatal fetal abnormalities are straight forward to diagnose.
This is how it is portrayed to the public.

mikom · 10-02-2015 06:34PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The person in question would not support such a decision.

Great that she had a CHOICE.

RobertKK · 10-02-2015 06:36PM

mikom wrote: »

Great that she had a CHOICE.

Kill the unborn and that decision would have been based on wrongful information from the experts in this country.

Is that how one should make a choice?

conorh91 · 10-02-2015 07:00PM

I'm not a fan of Clare Daly but I don't doubt her bona fides on this matter.

It's not clear why the Government won't release the AG's advice. Perhaps they are concerned about undermining the authority of the office of the AG.

If the advice were published, it could be open season on her Office. Presumably, an RTE producer would immediately field a team of former AGs or eminent senior counsel to discredit the opinion, resulting in increased pressure on the Government to legislate, or for the AG to resign.

johnnyskeleton · 10-02-2015 07:12PM

Does anyone have the actual wording of the bill by any chance? Its impossible to form a view on the proposals constitutionality or otherwise without seeing what it actually says.

If the baby is stillborn, doctors can legally remove it now afaik. If the baby has an abnormality that will not automatically result in death weare going down the dangerous path of eugenics (of the "i dont want a hild with downes syndrome" variety).

If a child will be born but is not viable, then on one hand it could be like the marie farrell right to die case where the court held that someone did not have such a right - only the right to refuse medical treatment.

efb · 10-02-2015 07:13PM

Fair Play to CD

Manach · 10-02-2015 07:19PM

Thankfully a small battle won against the tide of abortion rights activists such as Daly seeking to undermine bit by bit the rather thread bare protections afforded to the unborn.

Godge · 10-02-2015 07:27PM

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Much kudos to Daly for this effort.

Its a shame its stymied by a FG fear of a civil war within its ranks.

Oh for an economically centrist /socially liberal party..... Why can't we have one!

Bit strange to blame it all on FG. Only 20 voted in favour of the bill.

Only three FF TDs voted in favour - Billy Kelleher, Robert Troy and Niall Collins.
Only one Labour TD voted in favour - Anne Ferris
SF hid behind an abstention vote for fear of splits.
Clare Daly, Roisin Shortall, Mick Wallace, Ruth Coppinger, Maureen O'Sullivan, Catherine Murphy, Joan Collins, Joe Higgins, SBB would all have voted in favour, that takes us up to 13. Who are the other 7?

Noel Grealish, Michael Fitzmaurice, Michael Healy-Rae and Michael Lowry voted against. What about the other independents? Where was Lucinda? What did Shane Ross do? Stephen Donnelly? Finian McGrath? Peter Mathews? the bould Mattie McGrath? Tommy Broughan? Denis Naughten? Thomas Pringle? Billy Timmins?

Questions for all the political parties.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/d%C3%A1il-defeats-clare-daly-s-abortion-bill-1.2098098

Questions also for Clare. If so many are in favour of the principle (as I am), does the lack of support show that more believed the AG's advice? Was it all then a publicity stunt?

For Reals · 10-02-2015 07:28PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Clare Daly only sees one side of the argument.

...

That's usually how people put forward a motion or a bill, having a specific point of view. Then all the others can debate it and come to a conclusion. Our politicians should have the right to choose.

mikom · 10-02-2015 07:35PM

mikom wrote: »

Great that she had a CHOICE.

RobertKK wrote: »

Kill the unborn and that decision would have been based on wrongful information from the experts in this country.

Is that how one should make a choice?

That is one choice........... she took the other.

She had a choice.

efb · 10-02-2015 07:43PM

Thread bare? This country affords the same right to a fertilised bunch of cells as it does a woman...

10-02-2015 07:44PM

Fair play to Anne Ferris. Will she be made leave Labour now? I'll probably give her a second choice, but Sinn Fein have definitely lost a voter.

Who wants a spineless govt in place?

Now is not the time for indecision.

super_furry · 10-02-2015 07:47PM

Weasle tactics from Sinn Fein. Not even bothering to show up to abstain.

Not sure of which was the wind is blowing so they keep the head down and do nothing.

Clare Daly TD

Comments