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Buildup Thread: Ireland v France, Sat 14th of Febuary

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    #122
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    total former wrote: »
    6. Player is subsequently diagnosed with "delayed" concussion, misses no matches of consequence.
    .

    Just on this point, the official injury report on Murray was a neck injury. The 'delayed concussion' report was not an official medical report apparently.

    I'm not championing this, just pointing out what was officially reported at the time

    Edit: Please ignore this. Apparently we're talking about different incidents


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    #123
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭phog


    total former wrote: »
    I'm not implying anything. Just pointing out that when you look at all the facts, facts that are not in dispute, it doesn't look great.

    Edit: I'll spell out those facts and then I'm done.
    1. Team is defending narrow lead in closing stages.
    2. Star player takes heavy knock to back of head.
    3. Player is removed.
    4. Player returns FOUR MINUTES later. That's four minutes absence in total so maybe 2-3 minutes of assessment?
    5. Team wins match.
    6. Player is subsequently diagnosed with "delayed" concussion, misses no matches of consequence.

    I think if the above was describing any other country or foreign club, we'd be scratching our heads about it.

    Yes he was assessed by a doctor but so was Florian Fritz, so was George Smith against the Lions, so were many others.

    Barry O'Driscoll resigned from IRB because he felt five minutes wasn't enough to check for concussion. Murray didn't get near that.

    Judge yourself, I would have doubts.

    Do you accept that Murray was medically assessed?

    Do you think a professional medic (who, ultimately can be held responsible for a players welfare) will be influenced by the team manager or by time constraints?

    Murray's incident happened during an Autumn International. I think Joe of all managers would be very slow to rush a player back onto the field of play regardless of the importance of a game


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    #124
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    phog wrote: »
    Do you accept that Murray was medically assessed?
    It's clearly stated in my post that he was.
    phog wrote: »
    Do you think a professional medic (who, ultimately can be held responsible for a players welfare) will be influenced by the team manager or by time constraints?

    You watch this and you tell me. French for doctor is "médecin", btw, you'll see plenty of them in this clip.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrWDOZmhqmg

    phog wrote: »
    Murray's incident happened during an Autumn International. I think Joe of all managers would be very slow to rush a player back onto the field of play regardless of the importance of a game

    I didn't make any accusations about Joe or anyone else. The facts are there and they are not in dispute, people can draw their own conclusions.


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    #125
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭phog


    total former wrote: »
    It's clearly stated in my post that he was.



    You watch this and you tell me. French for doctor is "médecin", btw, you'll see plenty of them in this clip.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrWDOZmhqmg




    I didn't make any accusations about Joe or anyone else. The facts are there and they are not in dispute, people can draw their own conclusions.

    What conclusions have you drawn about Murray's assessment? Be very specific in what you say, don't hide behind innuendo.


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    #126
    wittycynic
    Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭wittycynic


    Most of this "assessed by a doctor" thing is tripe. There are two incontrovertibles when it comes to concussions.

    1. If you have lost consciousness as a result of a blow to the head you are concussed.

    2. Directly after a concussion the head must be rested, as failure to do risks exacerbating the injury.

    In every single occasion where a player has lost consciousness but has been allowed to take further part in the match, the team's management has placed the team's results ahead of the player's welfare. End of story.

    If Joe has ever permitted that of one of his players then he is as guilty as any of them.


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    #127
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,791 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    wittycynic wrote: »
    Most of this "assessed by a doctor" thing is tripe. There are two incontrovertibles when it comes to concussions.

    1. If you have lost consciousness as a result of a blow to the head you are concussed.

    2. Directly after a concussion the head must be rested, as failure to do risks exacerbating the injury.

    In every single occasion where a player has lost consciousness but has been allowed to take further part in the match, the team's management has placed the team's results ahead of the player's welfare. End of story.

    If Joe has ever permitted that of one of his players then he is as guilty as any of them.



    The only thing i'll say here is, has any manager ever taken a player off the field of play even if the pitch side doc has cleared them to play on?


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    #128
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    wittycynic wrote: »

    1. If you have lost consciousness as a result of a blow to the head you are concussed.

    Is this actually true? I thought the connection was not so clear?


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    #129
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Is this actually true? I thought the connection was not so clear?

    I think I read somewhere recently that you don't necessarily have to lose consciousness to be concussed. However, I'm not sure if you lose consciousness from a knock to the head that you're also concussed.


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    #130
    SaveOurLyric
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭SaveOurLyric


    phog wrote: »
    Do you think a professional medic (who, ultimately can be held responsible for a players welfare) will be influenced by the team manager or by time constraints?

    This is hardly in question is it ?

    Clearly professional medics are influenced by team managers and the general pressure for the team to perform.

    If they werent, there would be no issue here. Its not as if concussion, its dangers, and diagnosis are not well understood. There wouldnt be medical doctors resigning from from boards due to disagreements on its handling. Stories of players 'rigging' the baseline tests. RTP 'protocols'. If they were serious about it, and assuming there was an honest error in not hauling off North because the didnt see it (make up your own mind on that one), then erring on the side of safety, having been knocked unconscious twice in one game - and allowed to play on ! - he would already have been ruled out of playing this coming weekend. But he isnt. Yet anyway. Because there are people interested in getting him on the pitch rather than having his welfare paramount.


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    #131
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭phog


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    This is hardly in question is it ?

    Clearly professional medics are influenced by team managers and the general pressure for the team to perform.

    If they werent, there would be no issue here. Its not as if concussion, its dangers, and diagnosis are not well understood. There wouldnt be medical doctors resigning from from boards due to disagreements on its handling. Stories of players 'rigging' the baseline tests. RTP 'protocols'. If they were serious about it, and assuming there was an honest error in not hauling off North because the didnt see it (make up your own mind on that one), then erring on the side of safety, having been knocked unconscious twice in one game - and allowed to play on ! - he would already have been ruled out of playing this coming weekend. But he isnt. Yet anyway. Because there are people interested in getting him on the pitch rather than having his welfare paramount.

    Yes it is, very much so.

    I'd be fairly sure a doctor could be struck off for knowingly putting a patient at risk.


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    #132
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    phog wrote: »
    I think I read somewhere recently that you don't necessarily have to lose consciousness to be concussed. However, I'm not sure if you lose consciousness from a knock to the head that you're also concussed.

    Yeah that was roughly what I thought as well. But I'll willingly admit I (obviously) don't really know.

    And yes medics obviously come under influence because they are human beings and they are employed by their teams. Whether the influence is subtle or overt it obviously happens.


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    #133
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    phog wrote: »
    Yes it is, very much so.

    I'd be fairly sure a doctor could be struck off for knowingly putting a patient at risk.

    Well first it's hard to catch them, and secondly they get away with it at times as well:

    http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/aug/31/dr-chapman-harlequins-leinster-tom-williams


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    #134
    wittycynic
    Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭wittycynic


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Is this actually true? I thought the connection was not so clear?

    Yes, although the exact reasons for loss of consciousness from head injury are not completely understood we do know that it stems from impact on the brain severe enough to interrupt normal cellular functioning.

    Where confusion arises is that it is possible to be concussed but not lose consciousness. In fact, this accounts for the majority of concussions.

    Many neurologists will actually recommend going to the emergency room if you have suffered a head injury where you have lost consciousness as a result.


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    #135
    total former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭total former


    phog wrote: »
    What conclusions have you drawn about Murray's assessment? Be very specific in what you say, don't hide behind innuendo.

    My conclusion is partly that three minutes is not enough to assess a concussion, but mainly that this is the Ireland v France preview thread.


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    #136
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    SaveOurLyric wrote: »
    This is hardly in question is it ?

    Clearly professional medics are influenced by team managers and the general pressure for the team to perform.

    If they werent, there would be no issue here. Its not as if concussion, its dangers, and diagnosis are not well understood. There wouldnt be medical doctors resigning from from boards due to disagreements on its handling. Stories of players 'rigging' the baseline tests. RTP 'protocols'. If they were serious about it, and assuming there was an honest error in not hauling off North because the didnt see it (make up your own mind on that one), then erring on the side of safety, having been knocked unconscious twice in one game - and allowed to play on ! - he would already have been ruled out of playing this coming weekend. But he isnt. Yet anyway. Because there are people interested in getting him on the pitch rather than having his welfare paramount.


    Was it dom ryan knocked out recently and taken off permanently very early in a game. I think nigel owens was ref and he changed a decision from penalty to scrum.

    And i remember last year the leinster doc ran on and removed jennings from a scrum just as the ref started the engagement sequence.


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    #137
    UnitedWeStand
    Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭UnitedWeStand


    wittycynic wrote: »
    Yes, although the exact reasons for loss of consciousness from head injury are not completely understood we do know that it stems from impact on the brain severe enough to interrupt normal cellular functioning.

    Where confusion arises is that it is possible to be concussed but not lose consciousness. In fact, this accounts for the majority of concussions.

    Many neurologists will actually recommend going to the emergency room if you have suffered a head injury where you have lost consciousness as a result.


    This all over. This is what paves the way for the potentially lethal damage. Your brain still reacts to any significant knock, even if you aren't knocked out or suffer no cognitive damage. It can swell up in the effected area like a normal response to any soft tissue in the human body, which if is repeated with a second blow of any sort can lead to rapid swelling and the infamous second impact syndrome.

    Players put too much into the game, if you get knocked on the head don't be a hero, get off the damn field.


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    #138
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭phog


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Well first it's hard to catch them, and secondly they get away with it at times as well:

    http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2010/aug/31/dr-chapman-harlequins-leinster-tom-williams

    Bloodgate? Hardly putting a patient at risk.
    total former wrote: »
    My conclusion is partly that three minutes is not enough to assess a concussion, but mainly that this is the Ireland v France preview thread.

    More innuendo.


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    #139
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭phog


    aimee1 wrote: »
    Was it dom ryan knocked out recently and taken off permanently very early in a game. I think nigel owens was ref and he changed a decision from penalty to scrum.

    And i remember last year the leinster doc ran on and removed jennings from a scrum just as the ref started the engagement sequence.

    Munster v Leinster on St Stephen's Day


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    #140
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Folks, there was a recent thread started on concussion here, which is a more relevant place for this discussion. Ireland-France buildup posts here please, anything concussion-related please use the other thread.


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    #141
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    I'm gonna put my neck on the line and say there'll be a few changes to the lineup this Saturday despite the fact Joe rarely changes the starting XV unless there's injury.

    After the game he cited the lack of leadership on the field, and lack of experience. So I wouldbt be surprised to see a few surprising picks and injured players straight back into the fold.


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    #142
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I reckon we'll see:

    McGrath Best Ross
    Toner POC
    POM Heaslip TOD

    Murray Sexton
    Henshaw Payne
    Zebo Kearney Bowe

    Cronin, Healy, Moore, Henderson, SOB, Reddan, Madigan, Fitzgerald

    And if we do I'll be a very happy man!


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    #143
    Shero1985
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Shero1985


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I reckon we'll see:

    McGrath Best Ross
    Toner POC
    POM Heaslip TOD

    Murray Sexton
    Henshaw Payne
    Zebo Kearney Bowe

    Cronin, Healy, Moore, Henderson, SOB, Reddan, Fitzgerald

    And if we do I'll be a very happy man!

    Not enough subs.

    I don't see any basis upon which Fitz will dispose of Jones on the bench.


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    #144
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Shero1985 wrote: »
    Not enough subs.

    I don't see any basis upon which Fitz will dispose of Jones on the bench.

    Being better and more versatile would do it I would think. No offence to Jones who is in great form at the moment, but Fitz is one of a small handful of players that we have that are top class.

    Also added Mads as I forgot the 22 spot. Keatley could well be selected either but again versatility would suggest it could be Mads. I wouldn't mind either way though. If Sexton were to come off early I'd rather Keatley myself.


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    #145
    Shero1985
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Shero1985


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Being better and more versatile would do it I would think. No offence to Jones who is in great form at the moment, but Fitz is one of a small handful of players that we have that are top class.

    But if Joe agreed, why wouldn't he have went that way versus Italy.


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    #146
    Shero1985
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Shero1985


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Being better and more versatile would do it I would think. No offence to Jones who is in great form at the moment, but Fitz is one of a small handful of players that we have that are top class.

    But if Joe agreed, why wouldn't he have went that way versus Italy?


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    #147
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,052 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Joe wasn't too worried about versatility last week when he went with Jones on the bench. Keatley is about as versatile as Madigan and Joe has seemed to have given Keatley the nod as head of Madigan.

    I think he'll stick with Keatley with Sexton starting.


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    #148
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,039 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    phog wrote: »
    Keatley is about as versatile as Madigan.

    You don't honestly believe this do you?


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    #149
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Keatley is in the same situation as Paddy - starts ahead of Madigan if Sexton is out but is left out if Sexton is fit, Madigan stays on the bench regardless.


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    #150
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,039 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    I haven't been reading much of the post-game stuff either on any message boards or in the media but I thought Keatley had a fairly poor game overall, especially in the first half. Can't see how he put his hand up to stay in the squad.


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    #151
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I was pleasantly surprised with Keatley this week. A few decent kicks to space (along with a few bad ones) and far better running game than usual. Kicking from the tee was immaculate.


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