From Isis to the Civil Service

DeadHand · 25-01-2015 06:45PM

end of the road wrote: »

no, but the fact it is a neo-Nazi rag makes it a neo-Nazi rag

not at all

The Backwards Man · 25-01-2015 07:06PM

DeadHand wrote: »

So the Swedish national broadcaster carries "regional", unsubstantiated reports?

Isn't it more likely that the report doesn't conform with your own narrow view and and makes you uncomfortable so you've been reduced to questioning it's validity, even when it's validity has been confirmed for you several times?

Or that you're casting about for a way out now that it's been clearly demonstrated that, despite your smugness, you were wrong and had no idea what you were talking about?

I'm not the one here harbouring narrow views.:)

It's a regional report, from a parochial department of the station, it's like Pascal Sheehy reporting on the Healy Raes at a council meeting.

Why hasn't this being picked up anywhere else in the intervening week, if it is such hardhitting groundbreaking news worthy of a thread on AH?

Or is it only here because of it's usefulness in pursuing a particular agenda?;)

RobYourBuilder · 25-01-2015 07:29PM

Why hasn't this being picked up anywhere else in the intervening week, if it is such hardhitting groundbreaking news worthy of a thread on AH?

It has been. It's been in the Swedish media and politicians have debated the pros and cons of the proposal.

I'm not the one here harbouring narrow views.

You came in here screaming about the story being fabricated by a "neo-Nazi rag".

It's a regional report, from a parochial department of the station, it's like Pascal Sheehy reporting on the Healy Raes at a council meeting.

You jumped the shark there, so now you're trying to play it down as a small regional issue.

Or is it only here because of it's usefulness in pursuing a particular agenda?

Says the lad who came in ranting about "neo-Nazi rags".

DeadHand · 25-01-2015 07:30PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

I'm not the one here harbouring narrow views.:)

It's a regional report, from a parochial department of the station, it's like Pascal Sheehy reporting on the Healy Raes at a council meeting.

Why hasn't this being picked up anywhere else in the intervening week, if it is such hardhitting groundbreaking news worthy of a thread on AH?

Or is it only here because of it's usefulness in pursuing a particular agenda?;)

Don't really believe you're qualified to pontificate what is and isn't worthy of an AH thread when I read some of the puerile threads you start.

It's still a national broadcaster. It's a valid report from a reputable source which you continue to dismiss for nonsense reasons simply because it doesn't conform with your own view.

So, the Swedish national broadcaster is biased and nonreputable?

conorh91 · 25-01-2015 07:50PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Why hasn't this being picked up anywhere else in the intervening week, if it is such hardhitting groundbreaking news worthy of a thread on AH?

It seems to be in the Swedish broadsheets as well as in the Danish and Norwegian media.

The story appears to be legitimate and is being reported by reputable media outlets. I don't know why anyone should feel the need to come to this commune's defence and imply that it is invention.

The Backwards Man · 25-01-2015 07:55PM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

It has been. It's been in the Swedish media and politicians have debated the pros and cons of the proposal.

You came in here screaming about the story being fabricated by a "neo-Nazi rag".

You jumped the shark there, so now you're trying to play it down as a small regional issue.

Says the lad who came in ranting about "neo-Nazi rags".

No ranting or shouting here Rob, merely mild bemusement.

DeadHand wrote: »

Don't really believe you're qualified to pontificate what is and isn't worthy of an AH thread when I read some of the puerile threads you start.

It's still a national broadcaster. It's a valid report from a reputable source which you continue to dismiss for nonsense reasons simply because it doesn't conform with your own view.

So, the Swedish national broadcaster is biased and nonreputable?

As I said before, show me the corroboration. The dozens of English language sites that must be ablaze with this discussion aside, show me where on the national broadcaster's homepage this story appears.

And I apologise profusely that my threads are not to your taste, perhaps if I made them more rabble rousing, fear mongering and fact manipulating they would be more amenable? I must try that in future.

Anyhow, it's been a delight discussing this with you both, I can't think of a better way I have ever spent a Sunday afternoon.

reprise · 25-01-2015 08:01PM

Me threads being ruined by a rubberbandits hating pisshead with no agenda.

Waaaaaaaaaaaa

Sniff sniff.

DeadHand · 25-01-2015 08:11PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

As I said before, show me the corroboration. The dozens of English language sites that must be ablaze with this discussion aside, show me where on the national broadcaster's homepage this story appears.

More waffling.

Anyhow, it's been a delight discussing this with you both, I can't think of a better way I have ever spent a Sunday afternoon.

Bye, now.

Sorry your sniffy, self-righteous intervention didn't work out quite how you wanted.

I think a **** thread or something similar just started there on AH and could do with a witty one liner. Maybe that's more in your line.

GLaDOS · 25-01-2015 08:41PM

DeadHand wrote: »

Don't really believe you're qualified to pontificate what is and isn't worthy of an AH thread when I read some of the puerile threads you start.

It's still a national broadcaster. It's a valid report from a reputable source which you continue to dismiss for nonsense reasons simply because it doesn't conform with your own view.

So, the Swedish national broadcaster is biased and nonreputable?

reprise wrote: »

Me threads being ruined by a rubberbandits hating pisshead with no agenda.

Waaaaaaaaaaaa

Sniff sniff.

DeadHand wrote: »

More waffling.

Bye, now.

Sorry your sniffy, self-righteous intervention didn't work out quite how you wanted.

I think a **** thread or something similar just started there on AH and could do with a witty one liner. Maybe that's more in your line.

Mod: cut out the personal remarks or cards will be handed out. Discuss the topic without making personal jibes

reprise · 25-01-2015 09:04PM

I was thinking, how could the West win this war on terror.

I mean, could it be as easy as dropping a few hundred blank application forms for the Swedish civil service on terror cells and letting the lads sort it out themselves?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-executes-at-least-120-fighters-for-trying-to-flee-and-go-home-9947805.html

RobYourBuilder · 26-01-2015 05:04PM

As I said before, show me the corroboration.

First you claimed that the story was fabricated by a "neo-Nazi rag". It was then shown to you that the thread starters source was a direct translation from an article that was published by the Swedish national broadcaster. Then you claimed that it was only a regional issue. Then it was shown to you that the proposals were debated by Swedish elected representatives. Now you want English speaking articles!

Will you get the boat.

RobYourBuilder · 27-01-2015 11:57AM

Ask and you shall receive, TheBackwardsMan.

Frederick Brandberg's comments originally appeared as his Facebook status on Sunday afternoon before spreading across Swedish media.

Writing in both English and Swedish, he questioned his future situation upon returning to Sweden, including options for work.

"In a few months, I'm back in Sweden after being deployed in Afghanistan, against Talibans and others who have really jeopardizing development in this very sore country," he said.

"There is no permanent job waiting for me when I come home."

The officer, who is currently headquartered in Kabul on his third mission to Afghanistan then compares his situation to that of returning ISIS-fighters from Syria, noting recent calls from several Swedish government representatives who have argued that extremists should be given more help to re-integrate upon returning to Sweden.

The Swedish soldier addresses Mona Sahlin in particular, a former leader of the Social Democrat party who is now Sweden's official coordinator against violent extremism.

"I read that Mona Sahlin together with other Swedish political leaders are anxious to take care of Swedish IS-warriors coming home from being involved in Syria, with specially designed programs for work and other issues that would make them function well in our society."

Brandberg refers to his post as "Utmaningen" or, "The Challenge".

"It would be wonderful if I was met with a comparable program after my homecoming, after which I could feel safe in having a regular job, with monthly income and a social stable situation in the society where I wouldn't need to wonder whether I'm wanted or not," he argued.

There are currently 500 Swedish soldiers in Afghanistan as part of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), NATO-led security mission in Afghanistan.

The Armed Forces told The Local on Monday that what happens to soldiers upon their return from war was not an issue that falls under their mandate.

"We take care of soldiers while they are there on the ground," an armed forces official explained. "Once they're back home, it's no longer our business."

The Swedish defense and foreign ministries were unavailable for comment.

http://m.thelocal.se/20150126/swedish-soldier-issues-challenge-to-home-government

Grayson · 27-01-2015 12:27PM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Ask and you shall receive, TheBackwardsMan.

http://m.thelocal.se/20150126/swedish-soldier-issues-challenge-to-home-government

You know Sweden does something similar with prisoners and has an extremely low rate of recidivism. As one of the guards in their prisons said (I'm paraphrasing), "someday those guys are not going to be in prison. The question is do I want them to be a benefit to society or not?"

Welcoming back jihadis isn't actually a bad idea. A lot have probably travelled there and have realised after a few weeks that it's not what they were expecting. The two options there are to either cut them off completely so they have no option but to stay or welcome them back.

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

49.8% of all non Europeans in Sweden are not economically active. Perhaps they should be more focused on getting them into the workforce instead of a bunch of head hackers.

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/social-europe-jobs/non-eu-citizens-twice-likely-be-unemployed-303834

You seemed to ignore bits which said that the employment rate for EU migrants was actually higher than it was for nationals.
And the employment rate for non-eu nationals might be higher over all but there's a lot of variance. In many countries the employment rate of non-eu nationals is actually higher.

Hoop66 · 27-01-2015 12:38PM

Is it really that bad an idea to have a plan in place to deal with returning jihadis?

Leaving aside the "shoot them in the face as soon as they get off the plane" as the adolescent wank-fantasies they are, what should be done?

Leave them to be on the dole and vulnerable to further radicalisation, or try to do something to give them a shot at a "normal" life?

RobYourBuilder · 27-01-2015 12:38PM

Grayson wrote: »

Welcoming back jihadis isn't actually a bad idea.

Jesus.

You seemed to ignore bits which said that the employment rate for EU migrants was actually higher than it was for nationals.

As was the unemployment rate. For nationals, you have to factor in students etc.

The unemployment rate was bit higher (12.2) on average for citizens of another EU member state than for nationals (10.0%)

And the employment rate for non-eu nationals might be higher over all but there's a lot of variance. In many countries the employment rate of non-eu nationals is actually higher.

Four out of twenty eight. Two of which have feck all non EU migrants or a generous welfare system.

Meanwhile, some countries are experiencing a higher employment rate of non-EU citizens than for nationals, for example in Cyprus (66.8% for nationals compared with 74.3% for non-EU citizens), the Czech Republic (72.4% compared with 79.5%), Lithuania (69.8% compared with 70.8%) and Italy (59.5% compared with 60.1%).

Grayson · 27-01-2015 12:55PM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Jesus.

fantastic reply. You really have me there. My only rebuttal is Mohammed! Buddha! Zoaster!

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

As was the unemployment rate. For nationals, you have to factor in students etc.

Four out of twenty eight. Two of which have feck all non EU migrants or a generous welfare system.

In that study the employed/unemployed are measured as part of the total workforce. Students aren't part of it. You could always go with the fact that there are more native pensioners. They're not counted either but it's not going to stop you using it.

And where's your data for the number of Non Eu nationals in all those countries?

RobYourBuilder · 28-01-2015 12:27PM

fantastic reply. You really have me there. My only rebuttal is Mohammed! Buddha! Zoaster!

The Danes have already tried to deradicalise these headbangers. It's not working out too well.

An Islamist group in Denmark has hit out at a local policy to de-radicalize Muslim youths. It cites “widespread depression, addiction… and alarming rates of suicide” as proof it’s really “sad Western culture” that is in dire need of help.

The scornful statement, which includes allusions to a “sad capitalist existential void,” was printed on the website for the group, called Hizb-ut-Tahrir. It’s a massive organization with branches in 40 countries and a regional chapter in Copenhagen.

There is no consensus in Hizb-ut-Tahrir worldwide on support or condemnation of terrorism, as both have taken place. The group is banned in Russia and some of its activities are proscribed in a number of Muslims countries.

Its statement comes weeks after a Copenhagen municipality decided on a plan to tackle Islamic radicalism at home.

It plans to do this over a period of four years, with the help of external experts working under the guidance of Sweden’s top expert on the matter.

The Sunday statements, made by group spokesman and Danish convert Junes Kock, see this as nothing but “manipulation” and “deception,” as well as an attempt to polarize the Muslim community and pigeonhole it into moderate and extreme categories. Kock believes that a plan of this sort intends to take things that are the staple of Islamic life – “a beard, prayer, scarf and general compliance with Islamic behavior” – and label them as radical in an agenda of stigmatization.

http://rt.com/news/226619-denmark-islamic-hizb-group/

And where's your data for the number of Non Eu nationals in all those countries?

F*cking hell. You guys sure do demand a lot of sources. When I provide them, you just play them down and ask for more. I'm not going to provide an in depth breakdown of the non EU unemployment rate for every one of the 28 EU member states. I've provided you with a synopsis of their unemployment rates in the EU, from euractv, an official EU body. That will have to suffice.

Egginacup · 28-01-2015 12:32PM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

The GI's were returning from fighting the Nazis. These lads are returning after a bit of rape, murder, head hacking and pillaging. You can't compare the two. The apologism on here for Islamic terrorists is utterly baffling.

What about the GI returning from Vietnam where they massacred civvies by the 1000s? Plenty of raping, pillaging and chopping off ears for trophies too.

conorhal · 28-01-2015 12:51PM

Egginacup wrote: »

What about the GI returning from Vietnam where they massacred civvies by the 1000s? Plenty of raping, pillaging and chopping off ears for trophies too.

And they gave them cushy jobs in the postal service, hence the term 'going postal', sometimes a bad idea is a bad idea.....

SeanW · 28-01-2015 12:52PM

Egginacup wrote: »

What about the GI returning from Vietnam where they massacred civvies by the 1000s? Plenty of raping, pillaging and chopping off ears for trophies too.

All of them?

Egginacup · 28-01-2015 12:58PM

inforfun wrote: »

Same bright idea was brought up in Holland as well.
Give them a place to live, money/job and so on.

I liked Wilders' idea better: make sure those ****s dont enter the country ever again

Al Qaeda, ISIS, The Taliban, Al-Nusra, <insert whatever radical-cabal-du-jour name here>, etc were never a problem until the West created them.

There was never an Al Qaeda/Taliban until the US/UK parked a load of troops in Saudi Arabia to occupy the lands of Mecca and Medina and then paid and equipped mujihadeen in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets and then deserted them when the fighting was over.
There was never an ISIS until the US trained, paid and equipped a gang of thugs to run riot it Syria and Libya cutting out people's hearts and livers and then letting them loose in IRaq and all over the Middle East.

The US opened the gates of Hell (and was given ample forewarning about it) when they embarked on their project to destroy Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Somalia, Yemen and ultimately Iran.
And now the blowback is reaching alarming levels and everyone on here is wringing their hands and talking about how these radicals "must be stopped before our way of life is lost forever" or some shit.

If you've got some knuckleheaded asshole in the schoolyard who thinks it would be a great idea to disturb a hornet's nest that's hanging in a nearby tree and as a result of his stupidity everyone in the yard gets stung, you don't complain about how hornets are a problem. You kick the shit out of the asshole before he has a chance to go near the nest or if it's too late you get everyone indoors and leave him out to fight the problem and clean up the mess he's created.

It's not rocket science, this "cause and effect"/"action and consequence" caper.

Grayson · 28-01-2015 01:08PM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

The Danes have already tried to deradicalise these headbangers. It's not working out too well.

http://rt.com/news/226619-denmark-islamic-hizb-group/

F*cking hell. You guys sure do demand a lot of sources. When I provide them, you just play them down and ask for more. I'm not going to provide an in depth breakdown of the non EU unemployment rate for every one of the 28 EU member states. I've provided you with a synopsis of their unemployment rates in the EU, from euractv, an official EU body. That will have to suffice.

See, I went and looked at the actual EU report that you cited. It clearly stated that students weren't included. Yet you said they were. You also left our facts that reflected well on emigration. You make stuff up and ignore anything that doesn't support your argument. You fit everything into your world view and don't even read the information that you use to back it up.

And I'd hardly call a Danish effort to rehabilitate jihadists a failure after a few weeks. Do you actually think that if it's not done in 3 weeks it's a failure?

And just editing to add: You make claims about populations of countries and attitudes of people. You don't actually provide sources. If that's the rules you follow when arguing then let me just say that there are no problems with extremism and there are no issues with immigration. Since i don't have to actually back it up with facts, you have to accept my word for it.

RobYourBuilder · 28-01-2015 01:18PM

See, I went and looked at the actual EU report that you cited. It clearly stated that students weren't included. Yet you said they were.

No you didn't. The original report was published by Eurostat and students were included in the figures.

You make stuff up and ignore anything that doesn't support your argument. You fit everything into your world view and don't even read the information that you use to back it up.

The Euractv link is a synopsis of the original Eurostat report. I've read both the synopsis and the original report.

It clearly stated that students weren't included.

Show me where. I've the report right here beside me.

RobYourBuilder · 28-01-2015 01:30PM

See, I went and looked at the actual EU report that you cited. It clearly stated that students weren't included.

You're a spoofer. If you read the report, you would see that it clearly states;

In 2013 in the EU28, the unemployment rate for non-EU citizens (21.3%) aged 20 to 64 was more than twice the level for citizens of the reporting country (10.0%), referred to as "nationals".

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/en/web/products-press-releases/-/3-30072014-AP

Wurzelbert · 29-01-2015 12:38PM

The Th!ng wrote: »

The only help they should get is a bullet between the two eyes as soon as they step off the plane.

or go straight to jail at the very least or be sent back...

RobYourBuilder · 04-02-2015 01:02AM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

A regional, unsubstantiated report from last Monday, replicated on two other sites of dubious intention. Seems verifiability is not as finely practised an art as when I went to school, but whatever, carry on.

A regional unsubstantiated report? Here is Kent Ekeroth, of the Sweden Democrats, bringing up the issue with Deputy Prime Minister and Cimate and Enviornmental Minster Åsa Romson - days previous to your comment.

It seems that we are taking a softly softly approach too.

The Department of Justice is rolling out a raft of new measures to prevent Ireland becoming a hub for international terrorists planning attacks on Britain and the rest of Europe.

The move follows concerns Ireland was seen as "soft touch" for Muslim fundamentalists such as those who carried out the savage attacks in Paris earlier this month.

Yesterday, the Irish Independent revealed Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald's plan to crack down on extremists using the internet to spread hate messages and attract young Muslim men into terrorism.

It is part of the Department of Justice's multi-pronged approach to countering the radicalisation of young Irish Muslims by terror groups such as the so-called Islamic State, or Isil.

One of the crucial elements of the plan is to target Irish Muslims who travelled to conflict zones in Syria or Iraq but returned to Ireland disillusioned by the jihadist war.

Gardai will seek to speak to these mostly young men in an attempt to understand how extremists lured them to conflict zones to take part in a brutal war.

They will also speak to the families of loved ones who died fighting with radical Islamic groups in the Middle East.

It is estimated at least 30 Irish citizens travelled to Syria and Iraq to fight alongside Sunni Muslims trying to take control of the region.

At least three young Muslim men who travelled from Ireland to these war zones have been killed.

The youngest was 16-year-old Libyan-born Shamseddin Gaidan from Navan who died fighting with Syrian rebels trying to overthrow president Bashar al-Assad's regime.

The Garda Radical Inter-Cultural and Diversity Office is central to the force's campaign to identify possible terror threats and ensure gardai have a good relationship with the Muslim community.

Islamic scholars will be asked to provide alternative interpretations of Islam to those being used by extremists waging war in the Middle East.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/disillusioned-irish-jihadis-to-help-gardai-fight-terrorism-30952513.html

These horrible cooonts are setting folk alight, beheading, murdering, raping and pillaging like there is no tomorrow. And yet there are still people to think that if some of them come back and go through a "deradicalisation” programme, everything will be fine. It's mind boggling.

From Isis to the Civil Service

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