theft, pure and simple.

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 12:32pm #1

Very, very dodgy stuff from here. Still onto them about it.

So I've been betting on the same line for a few days now. Ice hockey, Odd number of goals. both games went to a shootout and were settled that way. both games ended 3-2. These are the rules that apply to Ice Hockey.
(unfortunately I can't post images but you can check the rules on their website.)

The weird thing is one of the games was settled a winner and the other a loser. When I brought it to their attention the winner was changed to a loser. I told them about another identical bet a made a week ago and they have no answer for that because it's obviously too late to take that money back. I've asked them repeatedly why rule 36.4 doesn't apply and they have no answer.

Any advice? They don't look like they're going to change their minds if I keep at them. Small claims court may be my only recourse.

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 12:34pm

36. US Ice Hockey (NHL)

36.1 Match Time and Validity

The following rules apply:

All markets will be settled at the end of regulation time unless otherwise specified;

For bets on a specific period the period must be played in its entirety for bets to stand. Otherwise, all bets are void;
if a game is decided by penalty shoot-out, one goal will be added to the winning team's score, and the game total;

all games must start on the scheduled date for bets to have action;

all games must complete at least 55 minutes of play for bets to have action.

36.2 Money Line

The following rules:

both teams will have prices quoted to win the game, but no handicaps will be applied;
the team you bet on must win the game in order for you to win the bet;
overtime will count for settlement purposes, unless a price for a draw is offered.
36.3 Puck Line(handicap betting)

The following rules apply:

if handicap betting odds are quoted, then settlement is based on the match result adjusted for the handicap line, available at the time the bet was struck;
if scores are level, once the handicap has been included then stakes on both teams will be refunded, unless a draw price has been offered.
36.4 Game Totals

Overtime will be included in the final result to determine bet settlement, unless otherwise specified.

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 12:37pm

36. US Ice Hockey (NHL)

36.1 Match Time and Validity

The following rules apply:

All markets will be settled at the end of regulation time unless otherwise specified;

For bets on a specific period the period must be played in its entirety for bets to stand. Otherwise, all bets are void;
if a game is decided by penalty shoot-out, one goal will be added to the winning team's score, and the game total;

all games must start on the scheduled date for bets to have action;

all games must complete at least 55 minutes of play for bets to have action.

36.2 Money Line

The following rules:

both teams will have prices quoted to win the game, but no handicaps will be applied;
the team you bet on must win the game in order for you to win the bet;
overtime will count for settlement purposes, unless a price for a draw is offered.
36.3 Puck Line(handicap betting)

The following rules apply:

if handicap betting odds are quoted, then settlement is based on the match result adjusted for the handicap line, available at the time the bet was struck;
if scores are level, once the handicap has been included then stakes on both teams will be refunded, unless a draw price has been offered.
36.4 Game Totals

Overtime will be included in the final result to determine bet settlement, unless otherwise specified.

cichlid child · 22-01-2015 12:39pm

I could be totally wrong about this but I seem to have read somewhere that you cannot bring the bookie to court for a bet placed, as it is a gentleman's agreement not a legal contract.

drumswan · 22-01-2015 12:40pm

How can odd number of goals be a winner if the games went to a shootout?

It would have to be a draw at the end of overtime (e.g. even number of goals) to go to a shootout and your bet is a loser.

You cant take a bookie to the small claims court either, there is no contract between you and they have no legal imperative to pay you win or lose.

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 12:41pm

drumswan wrote: »

How can odd number of goals be a winner if the games went to a shootout?

It would have to be a draw at the end of overtime (e.g. even number of goals) to go to a shootout and your bet is a loser.

You cant take a bookie to the small claims court either, there is no contract between you and they have no legal imperative to pay you win or lose.

Read the rules in bold.

cichlid child · 22-01-2015 12:46pm

overtime will count for settlement purposes, unless a price for a draw is offered.
Does the rule above come into play?

drumswan · 22-01-2015 12:50pm

Fairly confusing rules alright, they seem to have themselves covered either way and the rules are contradictory. You can see why two settlers would interpret them differently.

All markets will be settled at the end of regulation time unless otherwise specified; seems pertinent. I cant see any odd/even markets on Coral now, does it specify that it includes overtime?

Whosthis · 22-01-2015 12:50pm

cichlid child wrote: »

overtime will count for settlement purposes, unless a price for a draw is offered.
Does the rule above come into play?

I don't believe it should as the bet was not on a 12 or 1x2 market. I would have thought game totals markets would be independent of this however Coral may have a different opinion.

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 12:50pm

cichlid child wrote: »

overtime will count for settlement purposes, unless a price for a draw is offered.
Does the rule above come into play?

Overtime will always end with a one goal winning margin, either it goes to a shootout and the winner gets a goal added to their tally or they score in overtime and win through golden goal. The only way Even selection can win is if there is a 2 goal winning margin.

They've settled the bet a winner twice already after having gone to a shootout. I bet on Arizona's game on the 16th of jan and that went to overtime. I won, withdrew, no issue. Then to day I bring an inconsistency to their attention and they settle all bets in their favour going against the rules.

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 12:52pm

drumswan wrote: »

Fairly confusing rules alright, they seem to have themselves covered either way and the rules are contradictory. You can see why two settlers would interpret them differently.

All markets will be settled at the end of regulation time unless otherwise specified; seems pertinent. I cant see any odd/even markets on Coral now, does it specify that it includes overtime?

They usually only offer it a day or two before the match. there is no NHL until next week I think. No it doesn't specify anything but it's my word against theirs really.

drumswan · 22-01-2015 12:54pm

walshyn93 wrote: »

They usually only offer it a day or two before the match. there is no NHL until next week I think. No it doesn't specify anything but it's my word against theirs really.

Thats the way with betting with a bookie. Have a look at IBAS, they might at least force them to tidy up the rules

http://www.ibas-uk.com/

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 12:56pm

drumswan wrote: »

Thats the way with betting with a bookie. Have a look at IBAS, they might at least force them to tidy up the rules

ibas-uk

Cheers I didn't know about that. i'll contact them now.

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 12:56pm

drumswan wrote: »

Thats the way with betting with a bookie. Have a look at IBAS, they might at least force them to tidy up the rules

ibas-uk

Cheers wasn't aware of that I'll contact them now.

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 2:28pm

bump

ianburke · 22-01-2015 4:54pm

were they pre match bets? the bets are cleary a winner. clear as day. there were 5 goals scored in the game. only reason they would deliberatley mark them as lost is if you took wrong prices...can you tell us the odds you took?

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 6:20pm

ianburke wrote: »

were they pre match bets? the bets are cleary a winner. clear as day. there were 5 goals scored in the game. only reason they would deliberatley mark them as lost is if you took wrong prices...can you tell us the odds you took?

2.1 odds. Not a mistake with the odds, they've offered the same odds on that selection every NHL game for the last few weeks and I've bet on that selection at least 8 or 9 times with no issues. As I said, on the 18th of january I had odd outcome for arizona v winnipeg and that finished in a shootout and the bet was declared a winner. That's why I continued to bet that selection.

ianburke · 22-01-2015 6:35pm

walshyn93 wrote: »

2.1 odds. Not a mistake with the odds, they've offered the same odds on that selection every NHL game for the last few weeks and I've bet on that selection at least 8 or 9 times with no issues. As I said, on the 18th of january I had odd outcome for arizona v winnipeg and that finished in a shootout and the bet was declared a winner. That's why I continued to bet that selection.

so it was pre match bet and not in running? usually "odd" is odds on pre match. those odds seem rather generous

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 6:42pm

ianburke wrote: »

so it was pre match bet and not in running? usually "odd" is odds on pre match. those odds seem rather generous

Pre-match, yeah. Yeah they're good odds. But the rules are plain to see. If Game total bets include over/under and odd/even then they apply. They put up no explanation even when I presented possible explanations to them, they just outright refused to give a justification beyond citing only the first sentence of 36.1. They didn't acknowledge any of the other rules.

ianburke · 22-01-2015 6:48pm

walshyn93 wrote: »

Pre-match, yeah. Yeah they're good odds. But the rules are plain to see. If Game total bets include over/under and odd/even then they apply. They put up no explanation even when I presented possible explanations to them, they just outright refused to give a justification beyond citing only the first sentence of 36.1. They didn't acknowledge any of the other rules.

well ur bets a clear winner. theres no two ways about it. im guessing theyve settled everyones bets as losers maybe running a scam. keep at them you will get paid altho they will likely limit u to peanuts

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 6:51pm

ianburke wrote: »

well ur bets a clear winner. theres no two ways about it. im guessing theyve settled everyones bets as losers maybe running a scam. keep at them you will get paid altho they will likely limit u to peanuts

I've already submitted it to IBAS. How do you mean keep at them? Is there much more I could do?

ianburke · 22-01-2015 6:57pm

walshyn93 wrote: »

I've already submitted it to IBAS. How do you mean keep at them? Is there much more I could do?

just read 36.1

just a quick question. in ur market did they have something like "regulation time only" or something to that effect? if not then ur bets a winner. ice hockey is a bit messy for these markets...its a pity they havent got other nhl markets up to check

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 7:01pm

ianburke wrote: »

just read 36.1

just a quick question. in ur market did they have something like "regulation time only" or something to that effect? if not then ur bets a winner. ice hockey is a bit messy for these markets...its a pity they havent got other nhl markets up to check

I've been picking my brains over that. I'm always very careful to read everything if it's a weird market I'm betting on. I wouldn't say no if I was under oath, but I'm 99.9% sure there was no small print or caveat. I've checked similar markets like NFL and there's no caveat. for example the NE Patriots game is up now offering:
Total Points Odd/Even
Odd 1.73 Even 2.05

Even the odds are similar and there's no small print beside the bet.

ianburke · 22-01-2015 7:05pm

seems to me the trader who settled just read that first line and didnt bother to read the rest. it clearly states that in games decided by penalties or overtime that 1 goal is added to the game total. if theres an nhl game next week with no small print then u have 100% proof ur bet is a winner

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 7:08pm

ianburke wrote: »

seems to me the trader who settled just read that first line and didnt bother to read the rest. it clearly states that in games decided by penalties or overtime that 1 goal is added to the game total. if theres an nhl game next week with no small print then u have 100% proof ur bet is a winner

I know I'm thinking they made a mistake and are now refusing to amend it out of arrogance. Hopefully IBAS get back to me soon.

keysersoze0330 · 22-01-2015 7:17pm

walshyn93 wrote: »

I know I'm thinking they made a mistake and are now refusing to amend it out of arrogance. Hopefully IBAS get back to me soon.

Hound them. Get talking to different customer service people, ask to speak to a manager. I wouldn't be waiting on IBAS, could be a while

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 7:20pm

keysersoze0330 wrote: »

Hound them. Get talking to different customer service people, ask to speak to a manager. I wouldn't be waiting on IBAS, could be a while

Yeah, I suppose I'll have to do that at a different time with a different set of staff hopefully

keysersoze0330 · 22-01-2015 7:21pm

walshyn93 wrote: »

Yeah, I suppose I'll have to do that at a different time with a different set of staff hopefully

Did you speak with a manager?

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 7:23pm

keysersoze0330 wrote: »

Did you speak with a manager?

Not directly. I was using the live chat, mainly so I could keep records of everything so everything I said went through the chap on the computer. I can't see them changing anything in my favour by themselves. They're not that generous.

ianburke · 22-01-2015 7:23pm

ive gone through recent results on coral webiste and looked at similar matches decided in overtime..penguins/flyers,oilers/capitals,min wild/red wings,predators/canadiens. all matches settled ODD - WINNER on their website.

keysersoze0330 · 22-01-2015 7:27pm

walshyn93 wrote: »

Not directly. I was using the live chat, mainly so I could keep records of everything so everything I said went through the chap on the computer. I can't see them changing anything in my favour by themselves. They're not that generous.

Ok, well sometimes live chat staff can be 'not clued up' to overtime rules and the like. Give them a call ask to speak to a manager. Seems a straightforward win case if what you're saying is all correct.

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 7:29pm

ianburke wrote: »

ive gone through recent results on coral webiste and looked at similar matches decided in overtime..penguins/flyers,oilers/capitals,min wild/red wings,predators/canadiens. all matches settled ODD - WINNER on their website.

Any others decided in a shoot-out? I know Coyotes/Jets was decided in overtime and settled Odd- winner because I bet on it, won the bet and withdrew the winnings. This was just last sunday so the rules can't have changed.

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 7:30pm

ianburke wrote: »

ive gone through recent results on coral webiste and looked at similar matches decided in overtime..penguins/flyers,oilers/capitals,min wild/red wings,predators/canadiens. all matches settled ODD - WINNER on their website.

Any others decided in a shoot-out? I know Coyotes/Jets was decided in a shootout and settled Odd- winner because I bet on it, won the bet and withdrew the winnings. This was just last sunday so the rules can't have changed.

ianburke · 22-01-2015 7:32pm

red wings/min mild went to penalties.so did the capitals/oilers game.

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 7:41pm

ianburke wrote: »

red wings/min mild went to penalties.so did the capitals/oilers game.

Cheers for that, I'll bring that up over the phone tomorrow

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 7:57pm

ianburke wrote: »

red wings/min mild went to penalties.so did the capitals/oilers game.

Trawled through the results on coral's website, went all the way back to 6th of january and found 5 that were decided by a shootout where they offered odd/even markets and all of them were settled as ODD-WINNER. Took screenshots of them all.

ianburke · 22-01-2015 8:03pm

ya they havent a lef to stand on now. i also noticed for ur bet they have in the results page ODD - LOSER...which i find strange...why dont they have EVEN - WINNER....maybe theyve settled everyones bets as losers and hope the guys like you dont bother them.

okidoki987 · 22-01-2015 10:57pm

I wouldn't hound them.

Send them all the screenshots etc in a mail, explain the situation and wait their response.
If it's not correct or to your satisfaction, then make sure you keep a copy of everything and include all that in the IBAS email.

As already stated earlier in the thread, gambling debts are not legally enforceable so don't bother going down that road.

walshyn93 · 22-01-2015 11:01pm

okidoki987 wrote: »

I wouldn't hound them.

Send them all the screenshots etc in a mail, explain the situation and wait their response.
If it's not correct or to your satisfaction, then make sure you keep a copy of everything and include all that in the IBAS email.

As already stated earlier in the thread, gambling debts are not legally enforceable so don't bother going down that road.

I've got nothing but one sentence responses when I tried to explain the rules to them. I really don't have anything to hit them with because like you said, they can dick me about all they want and suffer no consequences.

Juwwi · 22-01-2015 11:21pm

This gentleman's agreement worked in days when bookies were fair
but these days they are no better than the con men with milk crates
playing find the queen ,they just want easy money.

Traders hide behind the customer service staff who in the main
don't know the rules very well.

I'd say this is the problem myself OP they just dont know the rules if someone with a bit of cop on sat down and read the rules it would be sorted in 10 minutes.

Something needs to be done to stop this sort of carry on but nothing will.

walshyn93 · 23-01-2015 5:55pm

okidoki987 wrote: »

I wouldn't hound them.

Send them all the screenshots etc in a mail, explain the situation and wait their response.
If it's not correct or to your satisfaction, then make sure you keep a copy of everything and include all that in the IBAS email.

As already stated earlier in the thread, gambling debts are not legally enforceable so don't bother going down that road.

Yeah, they responded with the exact same message. I'm going to ring them tomorrow and go through their formal complaints procedure. I have nothing to threaten them with though. They can blow me off for eternity and there's nothing I can do about it.

okidoki987 · 23-01-2015 9:56pm

I would have thought ringing was a waste of time.
I would always email so that you have a record of exactly what was said by both sides.

Juwwi · 23-01-2015 11:00pm

At least by ringing you can get the person hopefully a manager
to read the rules while on the phone and get them to give their
perception of them.

Live chat l find a total waste of time, Email less so but always favour ringing myself.

walshyn93 · 24-01-2015 5:25am

Woaw woaw woaw.

So I just got a response saying the following:

I can confirm that The bet is settled correctly in accordance with our rules.

36. US Ice Hockey (NHL)
36.1 Match Time and Validity
The following rules apply:

All markets will be settled at the end of regulation time unless otherwise specified;

But here's a conversation with the live chat people:

BradleyR: Hello. Thank you for contacting Coral Customer Support, your speaking to Bradley. How can I help you?
walshyn93: Hi bradley
walshyn93: I'd like to place a bet on an Ice Hockey game. I'd like to wager on an Odd number of goals. Can you tell me how this bet will be settled if it is drawn in normal time by finishes with a 1 goal margin after a penalty shootout?
walshyn93: *but
walshyn93: the rules say 36. US Ice Hockey (NHL)

36.1 Match Time and Validity

The following rules apply:

All markets will be settled at the end of regulation time unless otherwise specified;

For bets on a specific period the period must be played in its entirety for bets to stand. Otherwise, all bets are void;
if a game is decided by penalty shoot-out, one goal will be added to the winning team's score, and the game total;
walshyn93: 36.4 Game Totals

Overtime will be included in the final result to determine bet settlement, unless otherwise specified.
walshyn93: does rule 36.4 apply to Odd/Even markets?
BradleyR: Thank you. Please bear with me while I look into this for you. I will be back with you shortly.
BradleyR: overtime is applied to this market
walshyn93: so if it's 2-2 for example and goes to a shootout and ends 3-2 the odd selection will win?
BradleyR: overtime is included the shoot out is not
walshyn93: but it says: if a game is decided by penalty shoot-out, one goal will be added to the winning team's score, and the game total;
BradleyR: that is for the result not for betting purposes the shoot out is not included in this
walshyn93: that's what the rules say though
walshyn93: so how can the rules say that if it's not for betting purposes
walshyn93: what other purpose could there be?
BradleyR: i have just spoke with the supervisor and they tole me that overtime is included but not the shootout

They're all over the ****ing place. I've got them now.

It's important to note that I have screenshots of them paying out on a shootout not just overtime. That conversation was directly after speaking to a number of different people, so I have a feeling they only said overtime counts because they knew it was me and they knew th circumstances of my bet. Every other shootout was paid out as Odd- Winner.

ianburke · 24-01-2015 12:16pm

cant believe they are still refusing to pay. keep us updated mate its a joke the way they are treating you. no doubt theyve done the same to others who may not even know they got screwed

Shanotheslayer · 24-01-2015 3:14pm

Interested in this thread, absolutely ridicilous form the bookies part.

Keep harassing them, weather it was a 10er or 100.

It's the principal.

duckysauce · 25-01-2015 12:46am

walshyn93 wrote: »

Woaw woaw woaw.

So I just got a response saying the following:

But here's a conversation with the live chat people:

They're all over the ****ing place. I've got them now.

It's important to note that I have screenshots of them paying out on a shootout not just overtime. That conversation was directly after speaking to a number of different people, so I have a feeling they only said overtime counts because they knew it was me and they knew th circumstances of my bet. Every other shootout was paid out as Odd- Winner.

get onto the http://www.ibas-uk.com/

I am in the process of doing so with one with odd changed after bets been placed .

Doing another one today after spoilsports altering odds from 16/1 to 4/1 they didnt contact me before the match , but did after it did email me tried to ride it out the sods. Sure they could do this with all losing bets , if I had lost would they have contacted me ?? no fcking way

whiteshorts · 25-01-2015 1:21am

All bookies do that, they will try and get everything on their side and never give anything away unless they have to.
IBAS is probably the only way with this as it looks like you are gong to get nowhere continuing to talk to them on chat.
They will probably try and stretch it out and hope you go away.
As said before, keep copies of everything and good luck with it.

walshyn93 · 25-01-2015 12:34pm

whiteshorts wrote: »

All bookies do that, they will try and get everything on their side and never give anything away unless they have to.
IBAS is probably the only way with this as it looks like you are gong to get nowhere continuing to talk to them on chat.
They will probably try and stretch it out and hope you go away.
As said before, keep copies of everything and good luck with it.

I've sent them the following email about 3 times now with no response.

To the Head of Customer Service,

Please consider this the initiation of a formal dispute in accordance with section 18.2 of your terms and conditions.

I just received the following message from you customer support team:

"Dear Mr xxxxx,

Thank you for contacting Coral Customer Support.

I can confirm that The bet is settled correctly in accordance with our rules.

36. US Ice Hockey (NHL)
36.1 Match Time and Validity
The following rules apply:

All markets will be settled at the end of regulation time unless otherwise specified;"

The same rule goes on to state if the game goes to a penalty shootout one goal will be added to the winning teams score and the game total. As my bets were on an odd number of goals this would make both of my bets winners. I have documented evidence of identical bets involving penalty shootouts being settled in this manner taken from your website screenshot and enclosed with this email.

I am prepared to contact you daily until I get a satisfactory answer or the full returns for both of my winning bets to the amount of €546

Bet ID: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Bet ID:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
username: xxxxxxx

Kindest regards,
xxxxx

duckysauce · 26-01-2015 1:33am

walshyn93 wrote: »

I've sent them the following email about 3 times now with no response.

they got back to me right away with a form , ring them

walshyn93 · 26-01-2015 12:27pm

duckysauce wrote: »

they got back to me right away with a form , ring them

No I sent that email to Coral. I got a letter from IBAS in the post today. I have more info I can send IBAS, any idea how I send additional info?

theft, pure and simple.

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