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Papa Francis - Same Sex Marriage

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Comments

  • #62
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,025 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    MistyCheese wrote: »
    AFAIK the Catholic doctor, ine suggests that they don't have a problem with gay people, just the act of penetrative homosexual sex. Which would mean that lesbians are grand. Any toys, tools, strap-ons or dildos are a no-no for everyone, regardless of sexual preference.

    This means, in theory, that no Catholic person would have any problem shaking hands, breaking bread, working beside or even showering with people who are homosexual, they would just condemn the actual act of two men having sex.

    I think there is prohibition on 'man laying with man as he would lay with woman'. But it also prohibits sodomy and fornication which is any act which causes sexual gratification but is not penetrative vaginal sex with intention to procreate.

    Basically any foreplay is out between any people. Male female child, doesn't matter to catholics. However they only focus on legislating against the gays.

    Don't call them biggots though. It's selectively restricting rights on people bases on their religion.


  • #63
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    I have absolutely no idea. I would like to know what the member fees are to LGBT Ireland are. Do they run a Stitch n Bitch? I'd quite like to get back into knitting.

    Maybe the fee for Gaire or websites like that? Wouldn't know myself. Would entry fee into LGBT clubs count?

    Time for lunch. Nom nom nom


  • #64
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    That there are different groups with different points of view and they are all entitled to that point of view.
    So criticising the catholic church for its view on SSM for eg is a futile excercise. They are entitled to their view no matter how much we disagree with it.

    No seriously. What are you on about?

    LGBT Ireland isnt anything

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #65
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    No seriously. What are you on about?

    LGBT Ireland isnt anything

    Sorry, got the name wrong. National LGBT federation.


  • #66
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    One would think people didn't know what is allowed and what isn't by the church, and that Pope Francis is somehow not a Catholic.

    However all areas and groups in society have the right to free speech, to say what they believe, whether you think they are right or wrong.

    Some would like certain groups censored by saying such a group has no right to be getting involved, if we live in a free society then anyone can say something that you agree or disagree with.
    Else we can all become like Islamic jihadists and believe the right shouldn't be allowed to be aired.

    The church is a part of society, it should allowed to express it's views. We can't have censorship imposed on those who don't say what we want to hear.


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  • #67
    MistyCheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭MistyCheese


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    I think there is prohibition on 'man laying with man as he would lay with woman'. But it also prohibits sodomy and fornication which is any act which causes sexual gratification but is not penetrative vaginal sex with intention to procreate.

    Ah, okay, so any kind of non-procreative sex is off the table and you're not allowed to get any pleasure out of it. That's lesbians out too then.


  • #68
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The church is a part of society, it should allowed to express it's views. We can't have censorship imposed on those who don't say what we want to hear.
    Nobody is asking for that, not myself anyway. Don't make them victims here.


    The fact is the church is given a platform by both the media and our government regularly and it is an incredibly strong lobby group with regards legislation. That is the biggest crime of all.


  • #69
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Tzardine wrote: »
    The Catholic Church seriously needs to get with the times or face the reality of losing a great deal of followers. They can start by allowing same sex marriage and female priests.

    They are too stubborn to ever change but they will not last another 2000 years unless they do.

    Pope Francis Already tried to make massive changes. He started by saying we need to welcome Gay people and re define the role of women in the church, the Curias, Cardinals and ArchBishops pulled the rug from under hime and rejected his teaching. A lot of old men seriously need to retire and we need fresh blood to support this revolutionary Pope.

    Another aspect is how big is the Roman Catholic Church? a fair estimate would 1 Billion followers? Its easier to leave and join something that suits you than change a whole organisation of 1 Billion....

    The Church of Ireland made revolution steps a few years ago by suggesting we need to talk about same sex marriges. Much easier to a small and newer organisation than a larger and older one ....


  • #70
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    RobertKK wrote: »

    The church is a part of society, it should allowed to express it's views. We can't have censorship imposed on those who don't say what we want to hear.

    "You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.”


  • #71
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    Sorry, got the name wrong. National LGBT federation.

    And it has about 10 members!

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #72
    Bootros Bootros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Bootros Bootros


    Since this isn't a pressing issue yet as the referendum is a few months away could it not go to A&A where it belongs?


  • #73
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Having an opinion Is one thing, trying to dictate what people can and cannot do and trying to stop people from being happy is another.

    Voting however you damn well please in a referendum is not dictating what people can and cannot do.
    It's democracy.


  • #74
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Bootros Bootros wrote: »
    Since this isn't a pressing issue yet as the referendum is a few months away could it not go to A&A where it belongs?

    Report it as a suggestion. The mods dont read through all threads.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #75
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Voting however you damn well please in a referendum is not dictating what people can and cannot do.
    It's democracy.

    Sure it is. You're voting to say one group is not equal to another or they are equal and that vote goes to deciding what a group can do.


  • #76
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    K4t wrote: »
    Nobody is asking for that, not myself anyway. Don't make them victims here.


    The fact is the church is given a platform by both the media and our government regularly and it is an incredibly strong lobby group with regards legislation. That is the biggest crime of all.

    How on earth is it a crime ? Why do you want to deny freedom of speech to a body which represents more than 80% of the population according to the last census?


  • #77
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,855 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    Voting however you damn well please in a referendum is not dictating what people can and cannot do.
    It's democracy.

    Voting how.you want to is democracy, being told to vote a certain way or you will go to hell is emotional/religious blackmail.


  • #78
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    How on earth is it a crime ? Why do you want to deny freedom of speech to a body which represents more than 80% of the population according to the last census?
    Platform 9 and 3/4.


  • #79
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Daith wrote: »
    Sure it is. You're voting to say one group is not equal to another or they are equal and that vote goes to deciding what a group can do.

    So what is the point in having a referendum if people are not just allowed to vote as they please? How do uou propose the issue of SSM be sorted?


  • #80
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    How on earth is it a crime ? Why do you want to deny freedom of speech to a body which represents more than 80% of the population according to the last census?

    The Church doesn't support freedom of speech


  • #81
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    So what is the point in having a referendum if people are not just allowed to vote as they please? How do uou propose the issue of SSM be sorted?

    Ideally we wouldnt have to have a referendum and it could be legislated for. I accept we do though.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #82
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    So what is the point in having a referendum if people are not just allowed to vote as they please? How do uou propose the issue of SSM be sorted?

    The same way heterosexual marriage was sorted.

    You can vote whatever way you want but you are voting on what a group in Ireland can and cannot do.


  • #83
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I think this new Pope is a good PR man. However, don't forget the same conservative, institutionally homophobic organisation hasn't gone away just because it's now got Papa Trendy as the new front man.

    His comments about Charlie Hebdo reveal a lot too ; the classic "wife beater defence" - She (France) was asking for it - didn't know when to shut up!

    Not at all surprised really. A leopard doesn't change its spots and neither does the Catholic Church.


  • #84
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,025 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    MistyCheese wrote: »
    Ah, okay, so any kind of non-procreative sex is off the table and you're not allowed to get any pleasure out of it. That's lesbians out too then.

    Yeah that's my understanding. 2 men or 2 women are precluded because they can't procreate so no sexual act could be considered within the rules. Anything heterosexuals do that is not for procreation using hands, fingers, mouths etc, is equally ruled out.

    Catholics should focus on tellingtheir own people what to do and leave the state to run its business. Catholics will be free to not marry a gay


  • #85
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I think this new Pope is a good PR man. However, don't forget the same conservative, institutionally homophobic organisation hasn't gone away just because it's now got Papa Trendy as the new front man.
    Read through this thread and the other Pope Francis one, it's worse, people have settled. They've accepted the church for what is and are torn between viewing Francis as Jackie Healey Rae and a revolutionary.


    I am accused of "hate" and having an agenda and such for even starting this thread. They seem to think the church has been reformed and we can move on with our lives. I cannot believe what I am reading. I suppose if support and protection and engagement of paedophilia wasn't enough to finally sway the general public away, nothing ever will be. Depressing.


  • #86
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Voting how.you want to is democracy, being told to vote a certain way or you will go to hell is emotional/religious blackmail.

    .....or maybe people just dont agree with SSM? Are you seriously suggesting that religious people or people who just don't agree with SSM not be allowed to express themselves? Do you realise at all how ridiculous that sounds? So what if some vote no because they think they'll go to hell? That's freedom of thought and freedom of speech. You can't force people to agree with you.


  • #87
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,852 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Fine, but no need to force their beliefs on others right?
    So ban catholics from voting in the referendum on gay marriage?


  • #88
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    .....or maybe people just dont agree with SSM? Are you seriously suggesting that religious people or people who just don't agree with SSM not be allowed to express themselves? Do you realise at all how ridiculous that sounds? So what if some vote no because they think they'll go to hell? That's freedom of thought and freedom of speech. You can't force people to agree with you.

    Did gay people get to vote for straight marriage ?

    There's a reason minority rights shouldn't be voted on by a majority. Alas that's where we stand now.


  • #89
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    .....or maybe people just dont agree with SSM? Are you seriously suggesting that religious people or people who just don't agree with SSM not be allowed to express themselves? Do you realise at all how ridiculous that sounds? So what if some vote no because they think they'll go to hell? That's freedom of thought and freedom of speech. You can't force people to agree with you.
    People are free to vote whichever way they like, for whatever ridiculously idiotic reasons they want, and we are free to label them homophobes and ****stains of society.


  • #90
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Ideally we wouldnt have to have a referendum and it could be legislated for. I accept we do though.

    That's good. I will be voting yes on the day snd I will defend to the death my neighbours right to think and vote as they damn well please irregardless of how they came to the desicion.


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  • #91
    Daith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭Daith


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    That's good. I will be voting yes on the day snd I will defend to the death my neighbours right to think and vote as they damn well please irregardless of how they came to the desicion.

    And you would respect freedom of speech of someone to offer their opinion on how someone voted?


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