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Papa Francis - Same Sex Marriage

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Comments

  • #32
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,025 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    kneemos wrote: »
    They're allowed have an opinion whatever the motivation. Just like yourself.

    You misunderstood. I never suggested they don't have the right to an opinion.

    They are entitled to have a bullsh1t opinion and if they are foolish enough to say it out loud then we are entitled to highlight how ridiculous it is. I thought we established that last week in the case in France of religion vs freedom of speech remember? Funny enough Pope Francis was on the fence about freedom of speech but I support his right to his ridiculous opinion even if he doesn't.

    Now would you care to address my opinion or was your intention simply to derail the discussion?


  • #33
    stimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,864 ✭✭✭stimpson


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Having an opinion Is one thing, trying to dictate what people can and cannot do and trying to stop people from being happy is another.

    Indeed. Try finding a school for your children in this country where they aren't subjected to religion.


  • #34
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    eviltwin wrote: »
    In relation to SSM it might. Plenty of Catholics will vote against it because of the church's position. Any debate on the issue has a representative from a Catholic organisation even though it's a civil issue. The church still has influence, not as much but it's still there.

    And LGBT ireland is another club with rules who have a position on this and influence their members and partake in debates on the subject.
    I am not defending either organisation, I just recognize their right to exist, to have their own rules and to exert influence on their members.
    And I recognise, as a non member, that I wont waste my time trying to influence these clubs from the outside.


  • #35
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    And LGBT ireland is another club with rules who have a position on this and influence their members and partake in debates on the subject.
    I am not defending either organisation, I just recognize their right to exist, to have their own rules and to exert influence on their members.
    And I recognise, as a non member, that I wont waste my time trying to influence these clubs from the outside.

    Of course lgbt groups have a position on it....it directly affects them :confused: guy


  • #36
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,025 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Of course lgbt groups have a position on it....it directly affects them :confused: guy

    And it won't effect the catholics. Catholics who care about their religion won't be using gay marriage and catholics won't be obliged to perform the ceremony so what exactly is their gripe again?


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  • #37
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,909 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    At some stage we are going to have to explain to the catholics that it's only secular marriage that the gays want. Catholics have a ceremony, cast their spells and also call that marriage.

    This is nothing to do with the religious ceremony. Catholics will never be obliged to perform a gay marriage in their church so what is it to them? They are afraid that society will move further away from them and they will have to either change their position or continue to be further out of touch with their flock.

    Solution? Prevent society moving forward... It's the Christian thing to do

    They believe marriage is a sacred thing between a man and a woman AFAIK.


  • #38
    Oops69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,477 ✭✭✭Oops69


    Typical Machiavellian Jesuit .


  • #39
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,855 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    kneemos wrote: »
    They believe marriage is a sacred thing between a man and a woman AFAIK.


    Fine, but no need to force their beliefs on others right?


  • #40
    Bootros Bootros
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Bootros Bootros


    K4t wrote: »
    It might be for the new faction of After Hours posters (most of them probably call themselves atheists or other such terms), you'll see them out in force on the other thread about Francis. They think it's cool or sticking it to the man to defend the Pope's comments as just a bit of fun and admire him for seemingly not being as bad as the others and having a sense of humour or some integrity. Yes, I've seen the word integrity used. It's sickening.

    Really. I personally think it odd that anybody is starting threads on the Pope opposing gay marriage. In other news David Cameron opposes Marxism.


  • #41
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,909 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Fine, but no need to force their beliefs on others right?

    Are they?


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  • #42
    Shrap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Bootros Bootros wrote: »
    I personally think it odd that anybody is starting threads on the Pope opposing gay marriage.

    Oh I don't find it odd. It's time people realised that the new cute n cuddly pope with his "homosexuals are people too" soft soaping words, is actually just as hard line about not wanting to allow them to live their lives equally as the last pope, or any other pope. Same sh1t, different pope.


  • #43
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,855 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    kneemos wrote: »
    Are they?


    The Pope and the church will use emotional and religious blackmail to get people to vote the way THEY want them to vote, There will be people in this country who have no problem with SSM but will be compelled by their church and it's leader to vote against something that will not affect any of them in any way shape or form.


  • #44
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    kneemos wrote: »
    Are they?

    How would you describe the NO campaign in relation to SSM? Have you not heard the religious representatives lately.


  • #45
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,025 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    kneemos wrote: »
    They believe marriage is a sacred thing between a man and a woman AFAIK.

    Agreed. And there are 2 things called marriage.

    1 There is a binding contract protected by the state

    2 priest says prayers and they call it marriage.

    Gay marriage will only effect 1

    The catholics are pretending they have ownership of both.


  • #46
    Shrap
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    eviltwin wrote: »
    How would you describe the NO campaign in relation to SSM? Have you not heard the religious representatives lately.

    Yes. The trouble is that church is not a place where you can stand up and counter their views. Literature is being handed out that contains misinformation and lies about the effects SSM will have on the institution of marriage, and there is no forum to debate this literature as yet. It is basic propaganda, if you are being told what to think with no room for dissent.


  • #47
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,909 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    The Pope and the church will use emotional and religious blackmail to get people to vote the way THEY want them to vote, There will be people in this country who have no problem with SSM but will be compelled by their church and it's leader to vote against something that will not affect any of them in any way shape or form.

    Perfectly entitled to do so,as are others to do the opposite.


  • #48
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,909 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Agreed. And there are 2 things called marriage.

    1 There is a binding contract protected by the state

    2 priest says prayers and they call it marriage.

    Gay marriage will only effect 1

    The catholics are pretending they have ownership of both.

    No,they believe it will damage something the hold sacred.


  • #49
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,855 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    kneemos wrote: »
    Perfectly entitled to do so,as are others to do the opposite.


    Really? Please explain the emotional and religious blackmail that the no side would be able to use? Why is it ok for the church to tell lies on these subjects?


  • #50
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    kneemos wrote: »
    No,they believe it will damage something the hold sacred.

    They also don't believe in divorce, contraception, ivf but they all are available.


  • #51
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,855 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    kneemos wrote: »
    No,they believe it will damage something the hold sacred.


    So you agree that some Mulims should be allowed to enforce Sharia law or stoning because it's something they hold sacred?


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  • #52
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    The pope and higher ups in the church like to talk on behalf of their god. They keep going on about how god doesn't like gays but god keeps making gays. Surely what actually happens in what god supposedly created is a better indication of what god wants than what some old man thinks god wants.

    I can understand him saying these things though and wouldn't really get upset about it. He's the spokesperson for his religion, he has to promote it's rules and ideals in the same way Enda Kenny has to promote the ideals of his party whether he truly believes them or not.


  • #53
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,909 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    So you agree that some Mulims should be allowed to enforce Sharia law or stoning because it's something they hold sacred?

    No,but they can spout their opinions.


  • #54
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    And LGBT ireland is another club

    No it's not.


  • #55
    K4t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Bye bye the last shred of any credibility your argument had :rolleyes:
    Religion and the Nazis are a perfect comparison. They both had good sides to them. The Nazis built motorways, but their defining characteristics, the things which they were really about, were evil.

    What religion does well most social organisations do well Tennis clubs, charities, rotary clubs...etc But what really makes a religion. What is the necessary condition? Faith. And an exclusive faith that trumps other sources of truth is a very dangerous thing when it has the power it does in this country in terms of lobbying our government and swaying votes.


  • #56
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,909 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Really? Please explain the emotional and religious blackmail that the no side would be able to use? Why is it ok for the church to tell lies on these subjects?

    If they are using emotional blackmail it's obviously not working as most people are in favour of gay marriage.


  • #57
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,025 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    kneemos wrote: »
    No,they believe it will damage something the hold sacred.

    It's not either/or. It's both what I said and they are afraid that secular marriage will become more popular and take from their market.

    So the catholics want to legislate their religious rules on everybody, in order to protect their prophet/ religion. Where have we heard this discussion recently?


  • #58
    MistyCheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭MistyCheese


    AFAIK the Catholic doctrine suggests that they don't have a problem with gay people, just the act of penetrative homosexual sex. Which would mean that lesbians are grand. Any toys, tools, strap-ons or dildos are a no-no for everyone, regardless of sexual preference.

    This means, in theory, that no Catholic person would have any problem shaking hands, breaking bread, working beside or even showering with people who are homosexual, they would just condemn the actual act of two men having sex.

    If Peter and Tom started taking off each others underwear and gave some kind of strong sign that one of them was about to penetrate the other, then Mr. or Ms. Catholic might be obliged to say "Ah here lads, knock that off now, that's a sin'" (double check this with your nearest priest, bishop, or cardinal though, I've been expressly asked to not speak for them myself)

    So that could be why some people are opposed to gay marriage. Even people who claim to have 'no problem' with gay people (Aww, isn't that lovely of them?) Sex within a marriage is supported, expected, celebrated (at least it is if you're doing it right). This should mean that gay marriage between two women is okay though (bur they must promise not to use dildos. Promise it right there in the vows).

    Taking all this is mind (quick hello to anyone who's still with me at this point) it would mean that anyone who identifies as Catholic and claims to have a problem with gay people based on their religious beliefs then they are actually mistaken and they are simply a bigot.


  • #59
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Trigger Happy wrote: »
    And LGBT ireland is another club with rules who have a position on this and influence their members and partake in debates on the subject.
    I am not defending either organisation, I just recognize their right to exist, to have their own rules and to exert influence on their members.
    And I recognise, as a non member, that I wont waste my time trying to influence these clubs from the outside.

    What are you on about?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #60
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    What are you on about?

    I have absolutely no idea. I would like to know what the member fees are to LGBT Ireland are. Do they run a Stitch n Bitch? I'd quite like to get back into knitting.


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  • #61
    Menas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,318 ✭✭✭✭Menas


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    What are you on about?

    That there are different groups with different points of view and they are all entitled to that point of view.
    So criticising the catholic church for its view on SSM for eg is a futile excercise. They are entitled to their view no matter how much we disagree with it.


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