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Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

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    #6602
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    aloyisious wrote: »
    I find it interesting that Enda is worried that the referendum on marriage equality may be won by those who oppose it (RTE), while the equalities minister is telling-off the B.A.I. for their "chilling" rulings on the topic and debates on air (The Examiner). Do I hear vote-seeking in the air?

    I reckon Enda's only spoiling for a fight on this one simply because he knows he's up against the luders of Iona. He know's he's bad when put up against others in a debate setting, but surely he couldn't be worse than that crowd. All he has to do to beat them is stand his ground and show how ludicrous their position actually is.


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    #6603
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Who exactly will he be debating?

    not Iona...surely not..


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    #6604
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    david75 wrote: »
    Who exactly will he be debating?

    not Iona...surely not..

    I hope to god not, giving them any kind of platform would be a digrace also them debating directly with the taoiseach would give them way too much legitimacy


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    #6605
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    agree completely. Hopefully they're all but shut out of this debate on any platform but a few of them seem to have their own parking spaces at RTE etc so...


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    #6606
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    david75 wrote: »
    People are going to project their anger about other issues onto this, rightly or wrongly...
    Not rightly or wrongly; just wrongly. Anyone who'll vote against a referendum proposal not on its merits but just in anger at the government is a blithering idiot who doesn't deserve a vote, frankly.


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    #6607
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    If facebook and twitter and the journal are anything to go by then, this referendum is buried on that basis alone..


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    #6608
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,440 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    david75 wrote: »
    If facebook and twitter and the journal are anything to go by then, this referendum is buried on that basis alone..

    Luckily the polls aren't operated via Facebook, Twitter, and The Journal then!


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    #6609
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,572 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    We'll just have to work a bit harder to offset any disinformation spread around mixing up citizens Civil Marriage rights and Church or Religious Marriages, and anything said about "The Children".


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    #6610
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,572 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Just listening to Lucinda and the new party announcement. Noting Billy Timmins (also former FG TD) is mentioned as being on the starting list. RTE radio news (drive-time programme) running Lucinda's statements about Marriage, the Constitution and procreation of children. I guess (rightly, I hope) that Enda may have been settling out the battle-lines for FG TD's nd Senators on the referendum ahead of Lucinda making hedlines. Re the Equalities Minister and his mention of the B.A.I., it may not have been a coincidencer, and may have been a way of the Gov't ensuring that each side would be given due respect in broadcasting when the B.A.I. may be called on to rule on complaints. Not thinking that any member of the B.A.I. might be swayed by religiosity.

    Just copped this on facebook... http://www.tv3.ie/vincent_browne_form.php. Ta to gent responsible for the info. It will be interesting if Billy Timmins will be on the panel as a Wicklow TD.

    I'm only hoping now that Eddie Hobbs will be the weak link in the chain, like the time that FG hooked a financial genius and it went wrong. Does anyone have connects or info as to Eddie's background on Civil Liberties issues vis a vie the Iona-style stance on the issue?


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    #6611
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,572 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Maybe I got it wrong on Lucinda's stance on Equal Civil Marriage, but there's a BIG "but" in what she say's now. According to today's Irish Times, Lucinda confirmed that she is now in support of it, think's it is hugely important for gay people and "maybe I didn't appreciate that before". The rest of her statement concerning the issue seem wishy-washy, almost like "I have gay friends".

    I get the feeling that Lucinda has realized that it is not merely the votes of LGBT people that she won't get, but also those of the close and extended family members of those people as well, plus their friends. Lucinda has stated that she won't campaign in the referendum, so I take it that she does not want to be seen as identifying with either the Yes or No camps now, and doesn't want to put off any possible allies this early in party-formative talks.


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    #6612
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,341 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    I heard some of that as well. It sounds like she's read the political winds on marriage equality (like Hilary Clinton, I suppose), or where she perceives they're blowing and wants to sound more open to it. At the same time, she still maintains a traditional stance on family/procreation (maybe I misheard as they replay some clips of her from 2010?), which came across as the 'but' you referred to.

    The ground game still needs a lot of work from the Yes side to ensure this passes.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



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    #6613
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Check out @stevenconlon's Tweet: https://twitter.com/stevenconlon/status/552071465794027520?s=09

    "sound of sodomy"?
    Jaysus


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    #6614
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    wprathead wrote: »
    Check out @stevenconlon's Tweet: https://twitter.com/stevenconlon/status/552071465794027520?s=09

    "sound of sodomy"?
    As one of the commenters points out, "the scarament of marriage" is a splendid misspelling in the context. And I'm sure Freud would have had something to say about that lampstand.

    333748.jpg


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    #6615
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,738 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    wprathead wrote: »
    Check out @stevenconlon's Tweet: https://twitter.com/stevenconlon/status/552071465794027520?s=09

    "sound of sodomy"?
    Jaysus

    I'm curious to know how they determined that the sound of one sexual act is bad but all others are fine for children to hear? And will hetero couples now be monitored for "sounds of sodomy" and subsequently have kids removed if they are flagged for such sound?

    And referring to a sex act as "beastly" doesn't reflect well on the author(s) of the leaflet either.

    They're not being entirely honest either as the sound they are complaining about isn't something that is exclusive to homosexual couples.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #6616
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,572 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Clicked on first twitter address in wprathead's post, was informed it didn't exist, tried Robindch's version, worked ok. Just lol.


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    #6617
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    wprathead wrote: »
    Check out @stevenconlon's Tweet: https://twitter.com/stevenconlon/status/552071465794027520?s=09

    "sound of sodomy"?
    Jaysus

    The hills are aliveeee with the sound of sodomy!

    Nice to see Christians caring about the wellbeing of children for a change. These people do know that sodomy is very common amongst straight people as well?


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    #6618
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    These people do know that sodomy is very common amongst straight people as well?
    I've suggested as much to Popette on a few occasions, but so far as I can gauge from the reaction, sodomy appears to be ritually impure only when gay men do it and the analogs for the lesbian and hetero population seem to be irrelevant.


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    #6619
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    robindch wrote: »
    I've suggested as much to Popette on a few occasions, but so far as I can gauge from the reaction, sodomy appears to be ritually impure only when gay men do it and the analogs for the lesbian and hetero population seem to be irrelevant.

    Its much like the ability to create a child with your partner then. Only matters if you arent a man and a woman. It's as if their problem is with the people and they are just trying to come up with poor excuses to attempt to make it socially acceptable.

    Still, hope to see someone handing these out today so I can ask them what kind of campaign they took part in to get the church to be a bit more helpful about finding paedophiles.


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    #6620
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Once again the Christian obsession with anal sex rears its head (pun intended). And specifically male-on-male anal sex.

    I'd really love to know if there's something specific that makes them so crazy about it, or if it's just "cos the bible says so".


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    #6621
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    I found the sounds of sodomy we need to be worried about (NSFW)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM2PwriqOjc

    If you ever see a black woman with a grapefruit make sure to throw a bible at her, she is coming into your house to make your children listen to the noises.


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    #6622
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    SW wrote: »
    They're not being entirely honest either as the sound they are complaining about isn't something that is exclusive to homosexual couples.

    They are also wrong about homosexuals not being allowed to adopt (they are scaremongering that legislation will allow them to adopt, implying they can't currently). A single gay person can adopt in this country, it is simply a matter that his or her partner won't also be recognised as a legal parent (this problem is also one faced by unmarried heterosexual couples).


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    #6623
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    seamus wrote: »
    I'd really love to know if there's something specific that makes them so crazy about it, or if it's just "cos the bible says so".
    The violation of "ritual purity" appears to cause the greatest offence - the bible doesn't actually mention male-on-male anal sex and IMHO, rather than reflecting authoritarian disgust at the practice, simply reflects it.

    Psychologist Jonathan Haidt has talked about ritual purity, usefully, I think in this talk.


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    #6624
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    News in from Florida -

    Bad - some courthouses in the state are to stop performing all wedding ceremonies, so that they don't need to perform any same-sex ceremonies:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/2/florida-courthouses-stop-all-weddings-to-avoid-per/

    Good - a judge has ruled that marriage equality can begin in Miami-Dade immediately; rest of the state from midnight:

    http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/287526221.html


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    #6625
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    david75 wrote: »
    Enda is doing far more harm than good supporting this referendum or even speaking about it, but it's not that tinfoil hatted to think that might be part of the plan. People are going to project their anger about other issues onto this, rightly or wrongly, and He's going to be the lightning rod for it, so he really shouldn't toxify it by speaking about it.

    That is nonsense imo. Why shouldn't he be supporting it? I think it is great to see the Taoiseach out supporting SSM
    If idiots vote no "As a protest vote" then they are lowest of the low, gombeen, individualist ****.


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    #6626
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,382 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    wprathead wrote: »
    That is nonsense imo. Why shouldn't he be supporting it? I think it is great to see the Taoiseach out supporting SSM
    If idiots vote no "As a protest vote" then they are lowest of the low, gombeen, individualist ****.

    Yeah, I really doubt anyone would use this vote of all things as a way of protesting against the government. Those who do, I'd have to wonder if they'd just be using that as an excuse to vote no.


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    #6627
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Anyone hear the last word on today fm yesterday? Had a discussion with una Mullaly and some new guy from Iona that I hadn't heard from before. Predictable stuff from them on "won't someone think of the children" but enjoyed the bit when Cooper brought up the "sounds of sodomy" leaflets thing; to which Iona said he was abhorred by that sort of thing.... As if!


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    #6628
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    off topic, but I love your "location" smokingman!
    Made me wanna watch Aliens


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    #6629
    freyners
    Registered Users Posts: 4,300 ✭✭✭freyners


    smokingman wrote: »
    Anyone hear the last word on today fm yesterday? Had a discussion with una Mullaly and some new guy from Iona that I hadn't heard from before. Predictable stuff from them on "won't someone think of the children" but enjoyed the bit when Cooper brought up the "sounds of sodomy" leaflets thing; to which Iona said he was abhorred by that sort of thing.... As if!

    Ben Conroy I believe.


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    #6630
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,131 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    The
    hills are alive with the
    "Sounds of Sodomy" leaflet makes it onto the Friendly Atheist's site.

    Umm, next up: Fox News. :pac:


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    #6631
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,341 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    smokingman wrote: »
    Anyone hear the last word on today fm yesterday? Had a discussion with una Mullaly and some new guy from Iona that I hadn't heard from before. Predictable stuff from them on "won't someone think of the children" but enjoyed the bit when Cooper brought up the "sounds of sodomy" leaflets thing; to which Iona said he was abhorred by that sort of thing.... As if!
    freyners wrote: »
    Ben Conroy I believe.

    Here is the podcast link.

    I may have heard wrong, or perhaps Conroy was implying that Iona was undecided as to whether it would be campaigning directly, but he definitely seemed to suggest that they'd be doing 'media work'. I don't have a problem with that in general, however, it's little hard to any denial of campaigning seriously. We know they'll be on the big shows like Prime Time, but come on, given Quinn et al's tendency to throw around a hostile language like 'marriage is under attack' (often on the point of children and families in particular) er, how will they not be campaigning?

    As for the sodomy leaflet, that's been so heavily mocked now I wonder if the usual columnists will go near it. Even if they do not, I think we all know what to expect in the coming months when the debate heats up. Not all opponents of SSM are bigots. You can be against SSM and not be a homophobe. The liberal media. Liberal tolerance is intolerant. Conscience. Had a conservative written this there'd be uproar. Most media welcomes pro-gay research uncritically, any research favouring traditional values is roundly attacked. On this note, iirc, the Heritage foundation had a document up before re flaws in the research only I can't find it. Maybe that angle will be used here. Lack of balance, etc. Expect plenty of that. On the more fringe element, no doubt there'll be a bit more of comparing gays to paedophiles and some other degree of mental. Even when the debate is away from this nonsense I hope we've a few incidents of mask slippage from certain people as I don't think those on the fence will be persuaded by some pro-SSM speakers such as Una Mulally.

    Back to the family for a second, one area I feel where the anti-SSM narrative fails is that it's a bit too obsessive around definitions and the 'natural' rights of kids - they don't seem to elaborate on it much. Family is about a load a stuff they don't* seem to mention. Note - privilege alert. It's that fall in the school yard, a class note home to check your child's hair for lice, your first pet, moving to secondary school, your first back account, going to a football match with your dad, and on and on.

    Are gays inherently incapable of providing this or will their access to marriage undermine children of other couples, or the 'unique' nature of heterosexual marriage as an institutional societal building block, blah blah blah? No.

    *ETA, thinking back now, actually the pro-SSM don't exactly talk up this type of stuff, either.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



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