Vetting tenants

beatlesfan3333 · 30-12-2014 2:48pm #1

Hi there, I am planning to rent my house out shortly. I have never done it before and need to know how to vet new tenants. What should and shouldn't I ask them? Do I ask for references during their visit or when I agree to take them on as tenants? How many prospective tenants would you recommend seeing? What questions should I be sure to ask and are there any questions I should be sure to avoid? Any help with this would be greatly appreciated as I am new to all of this, thank you.

the world wonders · 30-12-2014 4:38pm

beatlesfan3333 wrote: »

What questions should I be sure to ask

What is your occupation? Where are you employed? How are you going to afford the rent? Where did you live before? How long were you there? How many of you are there? Do you have any pets?

and are there any questions I should be sure to avoid?

You should not ask any questions relating to the kinds of discrimination forbidden by the Equal Status Act i.e. gender, civil status, family status, age, race/nationality, religion, disability, sexual orientation, membership of the Traveller community.

Arbiter of Good Taste · 30-12-2014 5:30pm

I would also ask for employer and landlord references. Specify that in the ad so that they bring them with them to the viewing or at least are in the process of getting them.

Ensure that the references include a phone number so that you can ring to verify. And I would also ensure that the landlord reference specifies the rental address. Better yet if the LL reference is from a letting agent. At least then you can be sure they haven't gotten a mate to draft something.

beatlesfan3333 · 30-12-2014 5:35pm

That's great advice guys, thanks!

murphaph · 30-12-2014 7:45pm

Much better than a reference from their current landlord is one from their last but one landlord. He is much more likely to spill the beans about a problem tenant.

mistress_gi · 31-12-2014 7:24pm

I would add a call to the landlord reference, they may be more at ease talking than writing it down!

the_syco · 31-12-2014 7:46pm

A months rent and the deposit up front.

NEVER EVER rent to someone who doesn't have both. Sob stories, etc, will leave you out of pocket. If they can't pay now, they'll probably be unable to pay in the future, and then best of luck removing them then.

hfallada · 31-12-2014 7:52pm

Generally OP you can tell if you someone is issues within a few mins of meeting them. Germans tend to the best to rent to. They are reasonable clean and know what is expected of them as a tenant. Not partying and paying rent on time is standard and not a bonus like some Irish tenants seem to think( my parents have been countless times that tenants thought they were excellent tenants are their rent was only late a week max). But Germans tend to expect things to repaired nearly ASAP. But they come from a country were most people rent and know what is expected from them.

If you are in Dublin. Try to get someone working IT or in IFSC. Their jobs are so demanding they dont have time to cause issues

Victor · 31-12-2014 9:24pm

hfallada wrote: »

Germans tend to the best to rent to.

hfallada wrote: »

not a bonus like some Irish tenants seem to think

This is probably stereotyping too far. There are many counter-culture Germans where you might find the exact opposite.

Moderator

braddun · 31-12-2014 9:33pm

make sure they have decent bank balance

Eldarion · 02-01-2015 1:07pm

braddun wrote: »

make sure they have decent bank balance

Ah this old chestnut. I completely understand the reasoning but something about it just doesn't sit right with me at all.

Tarzana2 · 02-01-2015 2:22pm

murphaph wrote: »

Much better than a reference from their current landlord is one from their last but one landlord. He is much more likely to spill the beans about a problem tenant.

I'd never go to my next to last landlord to ask them for a reference. I'd get a good one from them, we had a good relationship, just the thoughts of hassling someone like that, gawd no. In fact, they might even give a subconsiously slightly negative one for having been bothered.

If you look for bank statement, expect them to be redacted.

conorhal · 02-01-2015 2:44pm

If you're a good judge of character then all the references and bank statements in the world can't beat a cup of tea and an informal chat to get a sense of the person.
I even know one amatuer psychologist that would put down coasters (that he never used himself) and a plate of biscuits with a solitary choccy one on it just to see if the prospective flatmates were the kind of messy selfish feckers that wouldn't use the coaster and scarfed the last chocolate biscuit... :pac:

seventeen sheep · 02-01-2015 2:53pm

the world wonders wrote: »

What is your occupation? Where are you employed? How are you going to afford the rent? Where did you live before? How long were you there? How many of you are there? Do you have any pets?

The bolded one, while one to try to suss out, is not something you should ask outright, in my opinion! If I've told someone my occupation and where I'm employed, that should be enough to make it clear whether or not I can afford the rent.

The other questions can be asked as part of casual conversation, even on the phone before you meet the tenant (e.g. if the number of people or the question of pets was a dealbreaker, no point in wasting everyone's time in bringing them for a viewing!)

braddun wrote: »

make sure they have decent bank balance

How? By asking for their bank statement?

Most decent tenants I know (i.e. those who are employed and with good genuine work and landlord references) will choose to rent elsewhere rather than handing over such unnecessary private personal documentation, with no guarantee of data protection.

So you're left with those tenants who - for whatever reason - are a little bit more desperate for accommodation. Not a good thing, in my opinion.

ZENER · 02-01-2015 4:44pm

From experience, beware of glowing references unless you can talk to the previous landlord in person. Had a tenant arrive with a glowing references gushing about them and how they had been wonderful to deal with etc. took 9 months to get them out after they stopped paying rent and sold some of the appliances from the kitchen. The previous LL just wanted rid of them.

Eastern European tenants tend to be good, they work hard and are clean and self sufficient mostly. We've had a lot from Poland and Lithuania and they were lovely tenants to deal with, no silly calls at 3 AM complain that the power has gone due to a local outage and asking what should they do with the contents of their freezer !!

Had other tenants who provided a letter from a fictitious solicitor on headed paper which had obviously been cut and pasted poorly. An address for a solicitor or business without a landline should also ring alarms. Some people will get friends to pretend to be their previous LL or employer.

Consider getting a local agency to deal with it, they have experience with these things and will have a list of prospective tenants.

Ken

Luckysasha · 02-01-2015 4:50pm

Why not give it to a letting agent. That's what I do. They do all the leg work advertising, showing people the property, vetting tenants, taking care of all the paperwork etc. it will cost you approx one months rent but believe me it's well worth it.

the_syco · 02-01-2015 5:02pm

Luckysasha wrote: »

Why not give it to a letting agent. That's what I do. They do all the leg work advertising, showing people the property, vetting tenants, taking care of all the paperwork etc. it will cost you approx one months rent but believe me it's well worth it.

It comes down to the EA. Some are worth their weight in gold, but some will take your money, not vet, not care about your apartment, not do anything really. You'll find a good EA by word of mouth.

Mrs OBumble · 02-01-2015 5:56pm

IMHO you want a local letting agent who only does lettings.

A general purpose EA who does sales as well usually doesn't focus so much on the rentals.

conor.hogan.2 · 02-01-2015 11:38pm

Supply proper full details of the actual property (not a few pictures and a description of the area + "mod cons") on daft/your ad and you will get more and better offers as tenants will offer up more details without you even asking a lot of the details.

Graces7 · 03-01-2015 7:22am

In 8 rentals in recent years I have never been asked for references and certainly not for my bank details. And it I who vet properties and landlords but mostly properties after some bad experiences. But then I am a single lady of mature years .

pwurple · 03-01-2015 8:45am

Most of it has been covered already, but I go through the conditions of the property and watch their reactions.

For example, I tell them the lift has a key to get to their floor, and they will be getting two keys (one each). If they start asking about extra keys... Or how to bypass it, that might be them wanting loads of parties. I don't rule people out for the wrong question, just gauge over all the comments what they are like.

I also ask people renting together how they know each other.

Sometimes you just get unlucky, so make sure your deposit is big enough and if possible give the neighbours your contact number. My biggest rental loss was a couple who took their break up out on my property. Whatever was going on with their relationship had them both very angry. They smashed a place to bits in one evening. Punched holes in walls, bashed down doors, broke every piece of crockery etc. I am still not sure I could have identified them as a problem in advance, they were perfectly wellbehaved for months, were both working good jobs, had rented together before for over a year... then the relationship broke down.

davo10 · 03-01-2015 12:50pm

From day one at interview, be very clear that you do not accept RA and will not in the future if they become eligible. References are essential and I now take 2 months rent in advance, not one so including deposit they are effectively paying the equivalent of 3 months rent up front. Anyone who doesn't like that, I explain that I'm sorry but thems the rules and the next people to view are on the way.

pooch90 · 04-01-2015 6:45pm

Do you take it as two months rent and one for deposit or two months as deposit?
I wouldn't give my bank details to anyone, regardless of wanting to rent the property. Unless they were willing to supply theirs. Our current LL can't afford their mortgage and are selling up, has to work both ways.

mikemac1 · 04-01-2015 6:50pm

If you want the best tenants then have a proper ad.

Too many ads on daft with limited information and the pics are so bad to be worthless. If you don't know about photos and uploading them then get a teenager to do it!

It's a waste of everyone's time for you to be meeting them and them showing up when they aren't going to want your property on 1st viewing

Barely Hedged · 04-01-2015 7:17pm

seventeen sheep wrote: »

The bolded one, while one to try to suss out, is not something you should ask outright, in my opinion! If I've told someone my occupation and where I'm employed, that should be enough to make it clear whether or not I can afford the rent.
I
The other questions can be asked as part of casual conversation, even on the phone before you meet the tenant (e.g. if the number of people or the question of pets was a dealbreaker, no point in wasting everyone's time in bringing them for a viewing!)

How? By asking for their bank statement?

Most decent tenants I know (i.e. those who are employed and with good genuine work and landlord references) will choose to rent elsewhere rather than handing over such unnecessary private personal documentation, with no guarantee of data protection.

So you're left with those tenants who - for whatever reason - are a little bit more desperate for accommodation. Not a good thing, in my opinion.

How about if the land lord asked you to show him/her in person your previous 2 bank statements to verify that you were a performing tenant in your last residence?

seventeen sheep · 04-01-2015 7:49pm

Barely Hedged wrote: »

How about if the land lord asked you to show him/her in person your previous 2 bank statements to verify that you were a performing tenant in your last residence?

Still, no. I don't want my landlord to know the ins and outs of how much I earn and where I spend my money. It's frankly none of their business.

I am in a good permanent job, and I have excellent references.

I have moved house several times in the last decade in high-demand areas. I have always - every time - been given first choice for any property I've ever viewed.

If excessive demands were made by a landlord - e.g. an extra months rent, or access to my bank statements - I would politely say no and move on to the next property on my list. Thankfully this has never been an issue for me so far.

By enforcing these demands, all a landlord is doing is alienating the "best" tenants who have their choice of the market, and settling for those with less options. It's really not very clever.

04-01-2015 9:53pm

Personally if I was ever renting out a property id want to being doing everything myself and wouldn't be involving a letting agent. I'd want to vet the people and I'd want to personally be carrying out inspections. That's leaving aside the fact you have to pay an agent also.

Asking for reference is fair and asking for one months rent as a deposit and the first months rent upfront is fair. Asking for two months rents and a deposit is going too far as its a fair bit of money to ask people to hand over. Asking for bank statements is ridiculous, a LL shouldn't even be allowed to asked for them.

Barely Hedged · 04-01-2015 9:55pm

seventeen sheep wrote: »

Still, no. I don't want my landlord to know the ins and outs of how much I earn and where I spend my money. It's frankly none of their business.

I am in a good permanent job, and I have excellent references.

I have moved house several times in the last decade in high-demand areas. I have always - every time - been given first choice for any property I've ever viewed.

If excessive demands were made by a landlord - e.g. an extra months rent, or access to my bank statements - I would politely say no and move on to the next property on my list. Thankfully this has never been an issue for me so far.

By enforcing these demands, all a landlord is doing is alienating the "best" tenants who have their choice of the market, and settling for those with less options. It's really not very clever.

I think what's been proven beyond reasonable doubt and in a common sense analysis of the situation is that references don't work. They're open to wide spread abuse and there's no accountability with them.

If we take what are the current landlords demands or tenants beliefs of what is required, before analysing what you call "excessive", it is one months rent and a work reference. Fair enough, but where does that explicitly state your ability to repay?

If a landlord is renting a 2 bed property in Dublin 2 as an example, receiving 1400 a month and it's valued at 300k. You move in, don't pay rent from day one and it takes 12 months to evict you. How much money do you reckon the landlord will be down? 20k?

Take another transaction involving similar sums of money a tenant might enter into - a loan for say 20k. Do you think the agency providing the credit will be satisfied with around 8% equity and a work reference only?

seventeen sheep · 04-01-2015 10:15pm

Barely Hedged wrote: »

I think what's been proven beyond reasonable doubt and in a common sense analysis of the situation is that references don't work. They're open to wide spread abuse and there's no accountability with them.

If we take what are the current landlords demands or tenants beliefs of what is required, before analysing what you call "excessive", it is one months rent and a work reference. Fair enough, but where does that explicitly state your ability to repay?

If a landlord is renting a 2 bed property in Dublin 2 as an example, receiving 1400 a month and it's valued at 300k. You move in, don't pay rent from day one and it takes 12 months to evict you. How much money do you reckon the landlord will be down? 20k?

Take another transaction involving similar sums of money a tenant might enter into - a loan for say 20k. Do you think the agency providing the credit will be satisfied with around 8% equity and a work reference only?

Meh. I don't really care.

As a regular renter, I've found the standard to be one work reference (which merely states that X works here in XXX position and has a permanent contract) and one - the most recent - landlord reference. And one months deposit, along with the first months rent.

If someone looked for more than that, as stated, I wouldn't be arsed. I'd go with a different property.

But like I've said, I've always been offered first choice on rentals, even while renting in high-demand areas. I'm a professional person in a permanent job, non-smoker, no pets, excellent references, etc. Plus I guess I probably come across well at viewings (because I actually am a nice, genuine, decent person) so I guess landlords see me as trustworthy. Which I actually really am.

So if they want to bypass me for the next person on the list because I won't give them my bank statements - it's their problem - there are always other houses. But if they end up with a crap tenant, it could cost them a lot more in the long run.

If tenants are willing to provide unnecessary security and information, it's probably because they have something to hide, which more discerning landlords would have already figured out (and declined them as a result.)

murphaph · 04-01-2015 10:20pm

Victor wrote: »

There are many counter-culture Germans where you might find the exact opposite.

sadly this is true.

It#s in German but a picture speaks a thousand words and you'll note a "Mietnomad" means "rent nomad" and that the article only exists in German. Trust the Germans to at least call a spade a spade with these leeches.

Barely Hedged · 04-01-2015 11:08pm

seventeen sheep wrote: »

Meh. I don't really care.

If thats the quality of your response to a comparative example that tries to address the concerns you have about data protection and excessive demands, your concerns were just populist nonsense in the first place or youre either very immature or naive about the situation faced when vetting all tenants.

seventeen sheep wrote: »

As a regular renter, I've found the standard to be one work reference (which merely states that X works here in XXX position and has a permanent contract) and one - the most recent - landlord reference. And one months deposit, along with the first months rent.

If someone looked for more than that, as stated, I wouldn't be arsed. I'd go with a different property.

But like I've said, I've always been offered first choice on rentals, even while renting in high-demand areas. I'm a professional person in a permanent job, non-smoker, no pets, excellent references, etc. Plus I guess I probably come across well at viewings (because I actually am a nice, genuine, decent person) so I guess landlords see me as trustworthy. Which I actually really am.

Thats great for you in your situation but what about the vetting of tenants in general. Do you think every tenant is exactly the same as you?

seventeen sheep wrote: »

If tenants are willing to provide unnecessary security and information, it's probably because they have something to hide, which more discerning landlords would have already figured out (and declined them as a result.)

This makes absolutely no sense??? If theyre hiding something theyre more willing to show you official documentation to prove theyre credit worthy tenants??? If youve got nothing to hide, you wouldnt mind showing that youre credit worthy. You dont seem to be grasping how the landlord would interpret this situation

B.A._Baracus · 05-01-2015 1:15am

Interesting read so far. To chime in on the bank statments aspect, there is no way I would ever give a landlord mine. Fortunately I have never been asked too as well.

A landlord can ask what a persons job is, where they work, is it permanent, how long have they worked in the job, etc. That's all fine. Getting to suss a tennant out. But what a person has in their bank account, be it 60c or 60 grand, is their own private business.

murphaph · 05-01-2015 7:02am

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Interesting read so far. To chime in on the bank statments aspect, there is no way I would ever give a landlord mine. Fortunately I have never been asked too as well.

A landlord can ask what a persons job is, where they work, is it permanent, how long have they worked in the job, etc. That's all fine. Getting to suss a tennant out. But what a person has in their bank account, be it 60c or 60 grand, is their own private business.

It's not about seeing the balance but rather seeing a regular income stream and responsible behaviour. Would you let to someone whose wages were all gone to Paddy Power a few hours later? It's just a tool for landlords. One of the few remaining as successive laws have stripped landlords of any power they once had. The law sides firmly with the tenant in occupation, so the landlord must use all means available at his disposal to ensure as best he can that tge tenant is a goodun.

Grandpa Hassan · 05-01-2015 8:34am

This all depends on the type of property.

I rent a place in London for £2k a month, through an agent. I have to provide bank statements, salary slips, employment and previous LL references. And all that would be completely normal. I would not be able to rent my apartment if I did not provide these. There is no way that a property at that end of the market, or higher, would be let without strongly checking affordability. If I were letting out an apartment of that kind of spec in Dublin, I would be completely stupid to not use a reputable agent and to not insist on the full range of vetting, including bank statements.

But at the lower, higher volume, higher turnover end of the market, much of which is done through smaller agents (or privately) it is completely unnecessary and, as others have said, counterproductive, as the LL insisting on bank statements would likely lose good tenants. Employment references, with a landline, would be the main thing I would look for when renting out my Dublin place. Previous LL references, unless from Sherry Fitz or other large agencies, would not be worth the paper they are written on.

Barely Hedged · 05-01-2015 8:39am

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Interesting read so far. To chime in on the bank statments aspect, there is no way I would ever give a landlord mine. Fortunately I have never been asked too as well.

A landlord can ask what a persons job is, where they work, is it permanent, how long have they worked in the job, etc. That's all fine. Getting to suss a tennant out. But what a person has in their bank account, be it 60c or 60 grand, is their own private business.

Whats you interpretation of the example i posted before?

Barely Hedged wrote: »

If a landlord is renting a 2 bed property in Dublin 2 as an example, receiving 1400 a month and it's valued at 300k. You move in, don't pay rent from day one and it takes 12 months to evict you. How much money do you reckon the landlord will be down? 20k?

Take another transaction involving similar sums of money a tenant might enter into - a loan for say 20k. Do you think the agency providing the credit will be satisfied with around 8% equity and a work reference only?

The information i would be hoping to extract from previous bank statements is:

1 - have they paid their previous three monthly rental amounts on time and via direct debit?

2 - do they have a balance in their account, or history of balances, so that if an unexpected cost arises during the month i.e. car repair, dental treatment etc that they will have sufficent money to pay me

3 - if possible, given time constraints, have they paid their final months rent i.e. not witholding the last or previous months rent

Barely Hedged · 05-01-2015 8:45am

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

This all depends on the type of property.

I rent a place in London for £2k a month, through an agent. I have to provide bank statements, salary slips, employment and previous LL references. And all that would be completely normal. I would not be able to rent my apartment if I did not provide these. There is no way that a property at that end of the market, or higher, would be let without strongly checking affordability. If I were letting out an apartment of that kind of spec in Dublin, I would be completely stupid to not use a reputable agent and to not insist on the full range of vetting, including bank statements.

In agreement with and have experienced all of the above, but not just for high end accommodation. It applies across the board

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

But at the lower, higher volume, higher turnover end of the market, much of which is done through smaller agents (or privately) it is completely unnecessary and, as others have said, counterproductive, as the LL insisting on bank statements would likely lose good tenants. Employment references, with a landline, would be the main thing I would look for when renting out my Dublin place. Previous LL references, unless from Sherry Fitz or other large agencies, would not be worth the paper they are written on.

I disagree - with changes in society and a greater proportion of people living in private, rented accommodation the situation where people are not accountable has to change. There is a case on both sides for improvement but people should be obliged to show that they are credit worthy.

Also, i would say the majority of the market is what you call "lower, higher volume, higher turnover". Top end rental accommodation is the minority hence the greater need for these checks

drumswan · 05-01-2015 10:33am

London is irrelevant. There is no way any professional looking to rent high end accommodation is going to hand over bank statements detailing their outgoings to Irelands gombeen landlord class. They will simply rent where this ridiculous requirement is not in place.

Landlords who do insist on this criteria will be restricting themselves to people who do not understand their obligations as tenants. Great idea.

Barely Hedged · 05-01-2015 10:42am

drumswan wrote: »

London is irrelevant. There is no way any professional looking to rent high end accommodation is going to hand over bank statements detailing their outgoings to Irelands gombeen landlord class. They will simply rent where this ridiculous requirement is not in place.

How do you interpret the below?

Barely Hedged wrote: »

If a landlord is renting a 2 bed property in Dublin 2 as an example, receiving 1400 a month and it's valued at 300k. You move in, don't pay rent from day one and it takes 12 months to evict you. How much money do you reckon the landlord will be down? 20k?

Take another transaction involving similar sums of money a tenant might enter into - a loan for say 20k. Do you think the agency providing the credit will be satisfied with around 8% equity and a work reference only?

drumswan wrote: »

Landlords who do insist on this criteria will be restricting themselves to people who do not understand their obligations as tenants. Great idea.

The landlord will know theyre credit worthy. How is this not a bad idea?

What is so ridiculous about providing a cashflow/bank statement to prove you can meet debt obligations as they fall due to creditors?

drumswan · 05-01-2015 10:49am

As a tenant, I dont care about the landlords business risks. Why would I? Do I wonder about the business decisions of Three when I become a mobile phone customer?

Is the landlord going to hand over his financial history to me so I can vet him and ensure I dont get caught in the receivership-legislation black hole and potentially evicted with no notice? I dont think so.

Ill simply rent from a landlord who doesnt have this requirement.

Eldarion · 05-01-2015 10:53am

drumswan wrote: »

London is irrelevant. There is no way any professional looking to rent high end accommodation is going to hand over bank statements detailing their outgoings to Irelands gombeen landlord class. They will simply rent where this ridiculous requirement is not in place.

Landlords who do insist on this criteria will be restricting themselves to people who do not understand their obligations as tenants. Great idea.

That's all well and good if the landlords and tenants are on a somewhat equal footing in terms of bargaining power but it's simply not the case in Dublin at the moment. It's very much a Landlord's market.

Try to think of it objectively. If you as a landlord have 10+ prospective tenants wishing to rent your vacant property and they all look identical on paper then how do you choose? In the aim to further minimise your risk you start to ask for more offsets. This can mean asking for 2x or even 3x the monthly rent as deposit or asking to see the last 3 to 6 months of bank statements. Sure maybe 3 out of the 10 prospective tenants will tell you to jump but the other 7 will meet these somewhat unreasonable requests and you now at least have some metric with which to choose the tenant with the least amount of risk.

Barely Hedged · 05-01-2015 10:55am

drumswan wrote: »

As a tenant, I dont care about the landlords business risks. Why would I? Do I wonder about the business decisions of Three when I become a mobile phone customer?

Is the landlord going to hand over his financial history to me so I can vet him and ensure I dont get caught in the receivership-legislation black hole and potentially evicted with no notice? I dont think so.

Ill simply rent from a landlord who doesnt have this requirement.

Because its how you run a business properly if you are exposed to siginificant downside risks. Its an inherent part of your business model to mitigate and hedge these risks and one way of doing this is to understand the credit worthiness of the tenant.

Compare the down side risks of a tenant to a landlord and then come back to me on that point.

You cant get evicted without no notice - its illegal. Just hyperbole.

Barely Hedged · 05-01-2015 10:57am

Eldarion wrote: »

That's all well and good if the landlords and tenants are on a somewhat equal footing in terms of bargaining power but it's simply not the case in Dublin at the moment. It's very much a Landlord's market.

Try to think of it objectively. If you as a landlord have 10+ prospective tenants wishing to rent your vacant property and they all look identical on paper then how do you choose? In the aim to further minimise your risk you start to ask for more offsets. This can mean asking for 2x or even 3x the monthly rent as deposit or asking to see the last 3 to 6 months of bank statements. Sure maybe 3 out of the 10 prospective tenants will tell you to jump but the other 7 will meet these somewhat unreasonable requests and you now at least have some metric with which to choose the tenant with the least amount of risk.

I agree with your points but i dont get why they are categorised as "somewhat unreasonable requests". Whats ureasonable about it? Why are some people here so touchy about proving their ability to pay?

Grandpa Hassan · 05-01-2015 11:00am

drumswan wrote: »

London is irrelevant. There is no way any professional looking to rent high end accommodation is going to hand over bank statements detailing their outgoings to Irelands gombeen landlord class. They will simply rent where this ridiculous requirement is not in place.

Landlords who do insist on this criteria will be restricting themselves to people who do not understand their obligations as tenants. Great idea.

I don't understand the paranoia about this. What exactly do you expect a gombeen LL to do with your redacted bank statement!? Not a ridiculous requirement at all at the higher and of the market (where reputable agents would mostly be doing it anyway)

(incidentally, do you view all landlords as 'gombeens'? If so, I take issue with that!)

Eldarion · 05-01-2015 11:04am

Barely Hedged wrote: »

I agree with your points but i dont get why they are categorised as "somewhat unreasonable requests". Whats ureasonable about it? Why are some people here so touchy about proving their ability to pay?

Because the exact same argument could be made in reverse. A tenant would also benefit from the peace of mind that the Landlord has sufficient funds to cover any issues or unexpected occurrences that may arise. They might also like to see that management fees are paid up to date if applicable or that any loan outstanding on the proposed rental property is being met and not in arrears.

These are unreasonable requests would only be met by landlords if the tenants had the greater bargaining power.

drumswan · 05-01-2015 11:07am

Eldarion wrote: »

That's all well and good if the landlords and tenants are on a somewhat equal footing in terms of bargaining power but it's simply not the case in Dublin at the moment. It's very much a Landlord's market.

Try to think of it objectively. If you as a landlord have 10+ prospective tenants wishing to rent your vacant property and they all look identical on paper then how do you choose? In the aim to further minimise your risk you start to ask for more offsets. This can mean asking for 2x or even 3x the monthly rent as deposit or asking to see the last 3 to 6 months of bank statements. Sure maybe 3 out of the 10 prospective tenants will tell you to jump but the other 7 will meet these somewhat unreasonable requests and you now at least have some metric with which to choose the tenant with the least amount of risk.

All very true but the fact is the large majority of landlords do not require access to my financial records to rent their property - I will rent from these landlords and not one that requires bank statements from me.

My interest is protecting my own personal data, not facilitating landlords in mitigating their risks. Frankly with the class of individual I have rented from in Ireland I would not generally feel comfortable handing over that level of personal information.

Barely Hedged wrote:

Because its how you run a business properly if you are exposed to siginificant downside risks. Its an inherent part of your business model to mitigate and hedge these risks and one way of doing this is to understand the credit worthiness of the tenant.

Compare the down side risks of a tenant to a landlord and then come back to me on that point.

You cant get evicted without no notice - its illegal. Just hyperbole.

I dont care about running a business - if I wanted to have this as a consideration (along with the potential to turn a profit in the property market) Id buy a property for rental instead of renting one myself. I dont care about a landlords risks and Im not sure why you think this would be of interest to me as a tenant.

In the case of a landlords property going into receivership the tenant has no protection under the Residential Tenancies Act. Plenty of reason for tenants to vet a landlords finance there - but unsurprisingly its not the norm either. Why would landlords be happy to hand over this info to tenants?

endacl · 05-01-2015 11:07am

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I would also ask for employer and landlord references. Specify that in the ad so that they bring them with them to the viewing or at least are in the process of getting them.

Ensure that the references include a phone number so that you can ring to verify. And I would also ensure that the landlord reference specifies the rental address. Better yet if the LL reference is from a letting agent. At least then you can be sure they haven't gotten a mate to draft something.

Not really. Letting agents have mates too! I've had references stating I'm a reliable tenant for properties I've never seen. Not that I'm not a reliable tenant, mind...

Barely Hedged · 05-01-2015 11:09am

Eldarion wrote: »

Because the exact same argument could be made in reverse. A tenant would also benefit from the peace of mind that the Landlord has sufficient funds to cover any issues or unexpected occurrences that may arise. They might also like to see that management fees are paid up to date if applicable or that any loan outstanding on the proposed rental property is being met and not in arrears.

These are unreasonable requests would only be met by landlords if the tenants had the greater bargaining power.

As a landlord, id have no problem with producing a headed letter from the management company that all my fees were up to date, annual bolier check done, carbon monoxide testing and a sinking fund in place for the accommodation. They would mostly all be part of my annual tax obligations refund assesment and if a tenant was obliging in displaying their credit worthiness, then this wouldnt be an issue.

murphaph · 05-01-2015 11:14am

drumswan wrote: »

As a tenant, I dont care about the landlords business risks. Why would I? Do I wonder about the business decisions of Three when I become a mobile phone customer?

Is the landlord going to hand over his financial history to me so I can vet him and ensure I dont get caught in the receivership-legislation black hole and potentially evicted with no notice? I dont think so.

Ill simply rent from a landlord who doesnt have this requirement.

You're displaying a total lack of understanding of the transaction taking place. Three can cut you off any time they like, even if you do pay your bill. The landlord CANNOT get you out for months if you fail to pay your rent. See the massive difference? Also your phone bill is presumably not a grand a month!!

The comparison with a 20k loan is much more apt. You won't be getting such a loan from a bank without a lot more than a work reference. Should banks give loans for 20k with work references alone, I mean it's a business risk, right??

You are free to ask the LL to prove his financial soundness if you wish and go to another LL if he won't, same as he is free to ask you to prove your financial soundness and move on to the next potential tenant if you don't want to.

Barely Hedged · 05-01-2015 11:17am

drumswan wrote: »

My interest is protecting my own personal data, not facilitating landlords in mitigating their risks. Frankly with the class of individual I have rented from in Ireland I would not generally feel comfortable handing over that level of personal information.

How exactly is the example of producing a hard copy of your bank statements to a potential landlord a threat to your personal data? More hyperbole.

drumswan wrote: »

I dont care about running a business - if I wanted to have this as a consideration (along with the potential to turn a profit in the property market) Id buy a property for rental instead of renting one myself. I dont care about a landlords risks and Im not sure why you think this would be of interest to me as a tenant.

Im not saying it should interest you - im merely stating, with examples, how it works in any other line of business as being a landlord is a business. An earlier example of how it operates in London was not irrelvant as that is quite and efficient model for the landlord/tenant relationship. In nearly all European countries that this is the case and Ireland should move closer to that model

drumswan wrote: »

In the case of a landlords property going into receivership the tenant has no protection under the Residential Tenancies Act. Plenty of reason for tenants to vet a landlords finance there - but unsurprisingly its not the norm either. Why would landlords be happy to hand over this info to tenants?

Previously you said it was being evicted with no notice and now the tenant will have no rights upon receivership? Which one is it and what rights will they lose?

drumswan · 05-01-2015 11:26am

murphaph wrote: »

You're displaying a total lack of understanding of the transaction taking place. Three can cut you off any time they like, even if you do pay your bill. The landlord CANNOT get you out for months if you fail to pay your rent. See the massive difference? Also your phone bill is presumably not a grand a month!!

The comparison with a 20k loan is much more apt. You won't be getting such a loan from a bank without a lot more than a work reference. Should banks give loans for 20k with work references alone, I mean it's a business risk, right??

You are free to ask the LL to prove his financial soundness if you wish and go to another LL if he won't, same as he is free to ask you to prove your financial soundness and move on to the next potential tenant if you don't want to.

I dont care about the landlords risks. I am a renter by choice so I dont have to worry about the risks inherent in owning property.

You think I am going to ask a landlord to hand over his bank statements so i can check if he is paying his mortgage with the rent paid to him and not gambling it away with Paddy Power? Eh, no that would be entirely unreasonable and a million miles from the norm in this market.

Incidentally how many property owners in this country are accepting rent and not servicing their mortgages do you think?

drumswan · 05-01-2015 11:31am

Barely Hedged wrote: »

Previously you said it was being evicted with no notice and now the tenant will have no rights upon receivership? Which one is it and what rights will they lose?

Notice periods are enshrined in the RTA, they do not apply where a property enters receivership. Perhaps you should educate yourself on the situation, you seem pretty well up on the risks landlords face.

Vetting tenants

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