Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Vetting tenants
Options
Comments
-
Interesting read so far. To chime in on the bank statments aspect, there is no way I would ever give a landlord mine. Fortunately I have never been asked too as well.
A landlord can ask what a persons job is, where they work, is it permanent, how long have they worked in the job, etc. That's all fine. Getting to suss a tennant out. But what a person has in their bank account, be it 60c or 60 grand, is their own private business.0 -
It's not about seeing the balance but rather seeing a regular income stream and responsible behaviour. Would you let to someone whose wages were all gone to Paddy Power a few hours later? It's just a tool for landlords. One of the few remaining as successive laws have stripped landlords of any power they once had. The law sides firmly with the tenant in occupation, so the landlord must use all means available at his disposal to ensure as best he can that tge tenant is a goodun.B.A._Baracus wrote: »Interesting read so far. To chime in on the bank statments aspect, there is no way I would ever give a landlord mine. Fortunately I have never been asked too as well.
A landlord can ask what a persons job is, where they work, is it permanent, how long have they worked in the job, etc. That's all fine. Getting to suss a tennant out. But what a person has in their bank account, be it 60c or 60 grand, is their own private business.0 -
This all depends on the type of property.
I rent a place in London for £2k a month, through an agent. I have to provide bank statements, salary slips, employment and previous LL references. And all that would be completely normal. I would not be able to rent my apartment if I did not provide these. There is no way that a property at that end of the market, or higher, would be let without strongly checking affordability. If I were letting out an apartment of that kind of spec in Dublin, I would be completely stupid to not use a reputable agent and to not insist on the full range of vetting, including bank statements.
But at the lower, higher volume, higher turnover end of the market, much of which is done through smaller agents (or privately) it is completely unnecessary and, as others have said, counterproductive, as the LL insisting on bank statements would likely lose good tenants. Employment references, with a landline, would be the main thing I would look for when renting out my Dublin place. Previous LL references, unless from Sherry Fitz or other large agencies, would not be worth the paper they are written on.0 -
B.A._Baracus wrote: »Interesting read so far. To chime in on the bank statments aspect, there is no way I would ever give a landlord mine. Fortunately I have never been asked too as well.
A landlord can ask what a persons job is, where they work, is it permanent, how long have they worked in the job, etc. That's all fine. Getting to suss a tennant out. But what a person has in their bank account, be it 60c or 60 grand, is their own private business.
Whats you interpretation of the example i posted before?Barely Hedged wrote: »If a landlord is renting a 2 bed property in Dublin 2 as an example, receiving 1400 a month and it's valued at 300k. You move in, don't pay rent from day one and it takes 12 months to evict you. How much money do you reckon the landlord will be down? 20k?
Take another transaction involving similar sums of money a tenant might enter into - a loan for say 20k. Do you think the agency providing the credit will be satisfied with around 8% equity and a work reference only?
The information i would be hoping to extract from previous bank statements is:
1 - have they paid their previous three monthly rental amounts on time and via direct debit?
2 - do they have a balance in their account, or history of balances, so that if an unexpected cost arises during the month i.e. car repair, dental treatment etc that they will have sufficent money to pay me
3 - if possible, given time constraints, have they paid their final months rent i.e. not witholding the last or previous months rent0 -
Grandpa Hassan wrote: »This all depends on the type of property.
I rent a place in London for £2k a month, through an agent. I have to provide bank statements, salary slips, employment and previous LL references. And all that would be completely normal. I would not be able to rent my apartment if I did not provide these. There is no way that a property at that end of the market, or higher, would be let without strongly checking affordability. If I were letting out an apartment of that kind of spec in Dublin, I would be completely stupid to not use a reputable agent and to not insist on the full range of vetting, including bank statements.
In agreement with and have experienced all of the above, but not just for high end accommodation. It applies across the boardGrandpa Hassan wrote: »But at the lower, higher volume, higher turnover end of the market, much of which is done through smaller agents (or privately) it is completely unnecessary and, as others have said, counterproductive, as the LL insisting on bank statements would likely lose good tenants. Employment references, with a landline, would be the main thing I would look for when renting out my Dublin place. Previous LL references, unless from Sherry Fitz or other large agencies, would not be worth the paper they are written on.
I disagree - with changes in society and a greater proportion of people living in private, rented accommodation the situation where people are not accountable has to change. There is a case on both sides for improvement but people should be obliged to show that they are credit worthy.
Also, i would say the majority of the market is what you call "lower, higher volume, higher turnover". Top end rental accommodation is the minority hence the greater need for these checks0 -
Advertisement
-
London is irrelevant. There is no way any professional looking to rent high end accommodation is going to hand over bank statements detailing their outgoings to Irelands gombeen landlord class. They will simply rent where this ridiculous requirement is not in place.
Landlords who do insist on this criteria will be restricting themselves to people who do not understand their obligations as tenants. Great idea.0 -
London is irrelevant. There is no way any professional looking to rent high end accommodation is going to hand over bank statements detailing their outgoings to Irelands gombeen landlord class. They will simply rent where this ridiculous requirement is not in place.
How do you interpret the below?Barely Hedged wrote: »If a landlord is renting a 2 bed property in Dublin 2 as an example, receiving 1400 a month and it's valued at 300k. You move in, don't pay rent from day one and it takes 12 months to evict you. How much money do you reckon the landlord will be down? 20k?
Take another transaction involving similar sums of money a tenant might enter into - a loan for say 20k. Do you think the agency providing the credit will be satisfied with around 8% equity and a work reference only?Landlords who do insist on this criteria will be restricting themselves to people who do not understand their obligations as tenants. Great idea.
The landlord will know theyre credit worthy. How is this not a bad idea?
What is so ridiculous about providing a cashflow/bank statement to prove you can meet debt obligations as they fall due to creditors?0 -
As a tenant, I dont care about the landlords business risks. Why would I? Do I wonder about the business decisions of Three when I become a mobile phone customer?
Is the landlord going to hand over his financial history to me so I can vet him and ensure I dont get caught in the receivership-legislation black hole and potentially evicted with no notice? I dont think so.
Ill simply rent from a landlord who doesnt have this requirement.0 -
London is irrelevant. There is no way any professional looking to rent high end accommodation is going to hand over bank statements detailing their outgoings to Irelands gombeen landlord class. They will simply rent where this ridiculous requirement is not in place.
Landlords who do insist on this criteria will be restricting themselves to people who do not understand their obligations as tenants. Great idea.
That's all well and good if the landlords and tenants are on a somewhat equal footing in terms of bargaining power but it's simply not the case in Dublin at the moment. It's very much a Landlord's market.
Try to think of it objectively. If you as a landlord have 10+ prospective tenants wishing to rent your vacant property and they all look identical on paper then how do you choose? In the aim to further minimise your risk you start to ask for more offsets. This can mean asking for 2x or even 3x the monthly rent as deposit or asking to see the last 3 to 6 months of bank statements. Sure maybe 3 out of the 10 prospective tenants will tell you to jump but the other 7 will meet these somewhat unreasonable requests and you now at least have some metric with which to choose the tenant with the least amount of risk.0 -
As a tenant, I dont care about the landlords business risks. Why would I? Do I wonder about the business decisions of Three when I become a mobile phone customer?
Is the landlord going to hand over his financial history to me so I can vet him and ensure I dont get caught in the receivership-legislation black hole and potentially evicted with no notice? I dont think so.
Ill simply rent from a landlord who doesnt have this requirement.
Because its how you run a business properly if you are exposed to siginificant downside risks. Its an inherent part of your business model to mitigate and hedge these risks and one way of doing this is to understand the credit worthiness of the tenant.
Compare the down side risks of a tenant to a landlord and then come back to me on that point.
You cant get evicted without no notice - its illegal. Just hyperbole.0 -
Advertisement
-
That's all well and good if the landlords and tenants are on a somewhat equal footing in terms of bargaining power but it's simply not the case in Dublin at the moment. It's very much a Landlord's market.
Try to think of it objectively. If you as a landlord have 10+ prospective tenants wishing to rent your vacant property and they all look identical on paper then how do you choose? In the aim to further minimise your risk you start to ask for more offsets. This can mean asking for 2x or even 3x the monthly rent as deposit or asking to see the last 3 to 6 months of bank statements. Sure maybe 3 out of the 10 prospective tenants will tell you to jump but the other 7 will meet these somewhat unreasonable requests and you now at least have some metric with which to choose the tenant with the least amount of risk.
I agree with your points but i dont get why they are categorised as "somewhat unreasonable requests". Whats ureasonable about it? Why are some people here so touchy about proving their ability to pay?0 -
London is irrelevant. There is no way any professional looking to rent high end accommodation is going to hand over bank statements detailing their outgoings to Irelands gombeen landlord class. They will simply rent where this ridiculous requirement is not in place.
Landlords who do insist on this criteria will be restricting themselves to people who do not understand their obligations as tenants. Great idea.
I don't understand the paranoia about this. What exactly do you expect a gombeen LL to do with your redacted bank statement!? Not a ridiculous requirement at all at the higher and of the market (where reputable agents would mostly be doing it anyway)
(incidentally, do you view all landlords as 'gombeens'? If so, I take issue with that!)0 -
Barely Hedged wrote: »I agree with your points but i dont get why they are categorised as "somewhat unreasonable requests". Whats ureasonable about it? Why are some people here so touchy about proving their ability to pay?
Because the exact same argument could be made in reverse. A tenant would also benefit from the peace of mind that the Landlord has sufficient funds to cover any issues or unexpected occurrences that may arise. They might also like to see that management fees are paid up to date if applicable or that any loan outstanding on the proposed rental property is being met and not in arrears.
These are unreasonable requests would only be met by landlords if the tenants had the greater bargaining power.0 -
That's all well and good if the landlords and tenants are on a somewhat equal footing in terms of bargaining power but it's simply not the case in Dublin at the moment. It's very much a Landlord's market.
Try to think of it objectively. If you as a landlord have 10+ prospective tenants wishing to rent your vacant property and they all look identical on paper then how do you choose? In the aim to further minimise your risk you start to ask for more offsets. This can mean asking for 2x or even 3x the monthly rent as deposit or asking to see the last 3 to 6 months of bank statements. Sure maybe 3 out of the 10 prospective tenants will tell you to jump but the other 7 will meet these somewhat unreasonable requests and you now at least have some metric with which to choose the tenant with the least amount of risk.
All very true but the fact is the large majority of landlords do not require access to my financial records to rent their property - I will rent from these landlords and not one that requires bank statements from me.
My interest is protecting my own personal data, not facilitating landlords in mitigating their risks. Frankly with the class of individual I have rented from in Ireland I would not generally feel comfortable handing over that level of personal information.
I dont care about running a business - if I wanted to have this as a consideration (along with the potential to turn a profit in the property market) Id buy a property for rental instead of renting one myself. I dont care about a landlords risks and Im not sure why you think this would be of interest to me as a tenant.Barely Hedged wrote:Because its how you run a business properly if you are exposed to siginificant downside risks. Its an inherent part of your business model to mitigate and hedge these risks and one way of doing this is to understand the credit worthiness of the tenant.
Compare the down side risks of a tenant to a landlord and then come back to me on that point.
You cant get evicted without no notice - its illegal. Just hyperbole.
In the case of a landlords property going into receivership the tenant has no protection under the Residential Tenancies Act. Plenty of reason for tenants to vet a landlords finance there - but unsurprisingly its not the norm either. Why would landlords be happy to hand over this info to tenants?0 -
Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »I would also ask for employer and landlord references. Specify that in the ad so that they bring them with them to the viewing or at least are in the process of getting them.
Ensure that the references include a phone number so that you can ring to verify. And I would also ensure that the landlord reference specifies the rental address. Better yet if the LL reference is from a letting agent. At least then you can be sure they haven't gotten a mate to draft something.
Not really. Letting agents have mates too! I've had references stating I'm a reliable tenant for properties I've never seen. Not that I'm not a reliable tenant, mind...0 -
Because the exact same argument could be made in reverse. A tenant would also benefit from the peace of mind that the Landlord has sufficient funds to cover any issues or unexpected occurrences that may arise. They might also like to see that management fees are paid up to date if applicable or that any loan outstanding on the proposed rental property is being met and not in arrears.
These are unreasonable requests would only be met by landlords if the tenants had the greater bargaining power.
As a landlord, id have no problem with producing a headed letter from the management company that all my fees were up to date, annual bolier check done, carbon monoxide testing and a sinking fund in place for the accommodation. They would mostly all be part of my annual tax obligations refund assesment and if a tenant was obliging in displaying their credit worthiness, then this wouldnt be an issue.0 -
You're displaying a total lack of understanding of the transaction taking place. Three can cut you off any time they like, even if you do pay your bill. The landlord CANNOT get you out for months if you fail to pay your rent. See the massive difference? Also your phone bill is presumably not a grand a month!!As a tenant, I dont care about the landlords business risks. Why would I? Do I wonder about the business decisions of Three when I become a mobile phone customer?
Is the landlord going to hand over his financial history to me so I can vet him and ensure I dont get caught in the receivership-legislation black hole and potentially evicted with no notice? I dont think so.
Ill simply rent from a landlord who doesnt have this requirement.
The comparison with a 20k loan is much more apt. You won't be getting such a loan from a bank without a lot more than a work reference. Should banks give loans for 20k with work references alone, I mean it's a business risk, right??
You are free to ask the LL to prove his financial soundness if you wish and go to another LL if he won't, same as he is free to ask you to prove your financial soundness and move on to the next potential tenant if you don't want to.0 -
My interest is protecting my own personal data, not facilitating landlords in mitigating their risks. Frankly with the class of individual I have rented from in Ireland I would not generally feel comfortable handing over that level of personal information.
How exactly is the example of producing a hard copy of your bank statements to a potential landlord a threat to your personal data? More hyperbole.I dont care about running a business - if I wanted to have this as a consideration (along with the potential to turn a profit in the property market) Id buy a property for rental instead of renting one myself. I dont care about a landlords risks and Im not sure why you think this would be of interest to me as a tenant.
Im not saying it should interest you - im merely stating, with examples, how it works in any other line of business as being a landlord is a business. An earlier example of how it operates in London was not irrelvant as that is quite and efficient model for the landlord/tenant relationship. In nearly all European countries that this is the case and Ireland should move closer to that modelIn the case of a landlords property going into receivership the tenant has no protection under the Residential Tenancies Act. Plenty of reason for tenants to vet a landlords finance there - but unsurprisingly its not the norm either. Why would landlords be happy to hand over this info to tenants?
Previously you said it was being evicted with no notice and now the tenant will have no rights upon receivership? Which one is it and what rights will they lose?0 -
You're displaying a total lack of understanding of the transaction taking place. Three can cut you off any time they like, even if you do pay your bill. The landlord CANNOT get you out for months if you fail to pay your rent. See the massive difference? Also your phone bill is presumably not a grand a month!!
The comparison with a 20k loan is much more apt. You won't be getting such a loan from a bank without a lot more than a work reference. Should banks give loans for 20k with work references alone, I mean it's a business risk, right??
You are free to ask the LL to prove his financial soundness if you wish and go to another LL if he won't, same as he is free to ask you to prove your financial soundness and move on to the next potential tenant if you don't want to.
I dont care about the landlords risks. I am a renter by choice so I dont have to worry about the risks inherent in owning property.
You think I am going to ask a landlord to hand over his bank statements so i can check if he is paying his mortgage with the rent paid to him and not gambling it away with Paddy Power? Eh, no that would be entirely unreasonable and a million miles from the norm in this market.
Incidentally how many property owners in this country are accepting rent and not servicing their mortgages do you think?0 -
Notice periods are enshrined in the RTA, they do not apply where a property enters receivership. Perhaps you should educate yourself on the situation, you seem pretty well up on the risks landlords face.Barely Hedged wrote: »Previously you said it was being evicted with no notice and now the tenant will have no rights upon receivership? Which one is it and what rights will they lose?0 -
Advertisement
-
Notice periods are enshrined in the RTA, they do not apply where a property enters receivership. Perhaps you should educate yourself on the situation, you seem pretty well up on the risks landlords face.
Educate yourself:
http://www.ulsterbank.ie/documents/roi/A_residential_tenants_guide_to_Receivership.pdf
You seem to equate the risks of a bad tenant to a bad landlord which is not the case. In its current format, a landlord stands to lose siginificantly more from a bad tenancy than the other way around. In my example, a landlord could lose out on 20k from a bad tenant. When could a tenant lose 20k from a bad landlord?
The only way this can be addressed is adding accountability to both sides, but at the moment the accountability is heavily weighted and disproportionality so on the landlord. This is a fact as has been pointed out to you already given examples and in the legislation thats freely available to Google.0 -
I propose a system whereby both tenants and landlords are vetted alike.
I have no problem being an excellent tenant. I do have problems with bad tenants giving good tenants a bad name. I also think if you pay so much rent, you should be entitled to proper accommodation for that....and that side of the bargain is fulfilled very little, in my experience.
Which is a pity.0 -
Barely Hedged wrote: »How exactly is the example of producing a hard copy of your bank statements to a potential landlord a threat to your personal data? More hyperbole.
Maybe he doesn't want them to know what he earns or what he spends his money on?
It's none of the LL concern what a person does with their money once rent is paid.
Asking for bank statements is totally out of order. I've never even met my LL in the year and a half I've been in my current place, he just about knows my name never mind ask me to produce bank statements.0 -
Alejandra Careful Barefoot wrote: »Maybe he doesn't want them to know what he earns or what he spends his money on?
It's none of the LL concern what a person does with their money once rent is paid.
Asking for ban statements is totally out of order. I've never even met my LL and he hardly knows my name never mind ask me to produce bank statements.
And how exactly will a landlord find out, when taking a new tenant on, that the new tenant is credit worthy and can afford to meet his/her rent obligations?
Why is asking for bank statements out of order. Its a normal creditor/debtor situation?0 -
probably the same way 99% of landlords in this country do, a work/previous landlord reference.Barely Hedged wrote: »And how exactly will a landlord find out, when taking a new tenant on, that the new tenant is credit worthy and can afford to meet his/her rent obligations?
i rented for all of my 20s. so did many of my friends.
i've never heard of any landlord asking for bank statements.
if they did i'd probably tell them to go fukc themselves tbh.
the only place i've heard of this practice is uppity busybody LLs on here who seem to live in a dreamworld and are probably hated by their tenants.0 -
ghostdancer wrote: »probably the same way 99% of landlords in this country do, a work/previous landlord reference.
i rented for all of my 20s. so did many of my friends.
i've never heard of any landlord asking for bank statements.
if they did i'd probably tell them to go fukc themselves tbh.
the only place i've heard of this practice is uppity busybody LLs on here who seem to live in a dreamworld and are probably hated by their tenants.
You sure about that 99% figure and specifically in Dublin?
Its been discussed at length the inadequacies of the previous landlord/work reference. Do some reading.
Your post in its entirety fails to grasp anything or any of the evidence that has been discussed to date and falls into the category - well it didnt happen to me so its grand.0 -
Barely Hedged, drumswan - take your squabbling to pm please.0
-
I propose a system whereby both tenants and landlords are vetted alike.
I have no problem being an excellent tenant. I do have problems with bad tenants giving good tenants a bad name. I also think if you pay so much rent, you should be entitled to proper accommodation for that....and that side of the bargain is fulfilled very little, in my experience.
Which is a pity.
Completely agree that adding more accountability on both sides will improve the benefit for both parties involved.
It would be an interesting discussion to see what type of subjective information would be excluded.
It would have to be linked to PPS numbers and maybe a credit check like Experian in the UK0 -
Barely Hedged wrote: »And how exactly will a landlord find out, when taking a new tenant on, that the new tenant is credit worthy and can afford to meet his/her rent obligations?
Why is asking for bank statements out of order. Its a normal creditor/debtor situation?
interesting and inappropriate analogy...we pay rent for services received.. how about we, tenants I mean, demand a record of how ll deal with repairs etc? Or dont! Still trying here to get 4 tiles replaced on the roof after last Febs storms and have given up as the house is his not mine.. how about we demand references from previous tenants?0 -
Advertisement
-
[/B]
interesting and inappropriate analogy...we pay rent for services received.. how about we, tenants I mean, demand a record of how ll deal with repairs etc? Or dont! Still trying here to get 4 tiles replaced on the roof after last Febs storms and have given up as the house is his not mine.. how about we demand references from previous tenants?
It would be an interesting discussion as to how this would be introduced because i think the more accountability there is on both sides, the better the outcome of the relationship.
This does not however supersede or equate to asking a potential tenant to prove their credit worthiness. This is a simple and easy fix0
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
Advertisement