Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?

Ash.J.Williams · 22-12-2014 03:04PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

First off I will say, I believe all people are entitled to the same rights, and have no issue with 2 people same-sex or otherwise, being able to have a civil marriage, where they are entitled to the same things every other 2 people who are together.

My question is around same-sex marriage in religion. A religion is what it is, that can be defined as backward or whatever, that isn't really the point. The fact is the parameters are set. For that reason, Im wondering if same-sex marriage should be allowed in specific religions. I mean the entire premise is that this was set down thousands of years ago for us by God, or various gods etc, depending on the religion, so can it now be redefined? And if so, surely that means everything can be redefined... Surely the religion cant allow it to be redefined as it would undermine the entire thing...

or no gods..i'm pretty sure it was man that laid down the law on gay marraige!

B_Wayne · 22-12-2014 03:08PM

fran17 wrote: »

Can you expand on that?

Because of a long term history of being treated like second class citizens or even criminals for being attracted to the same sex.

floggg · 22-12-2014 03:28PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

First off I will say, I believe all people are entitled to the same rights, and have no issue with 2 people same-sex or otherwise, being able to have a civil marriage, where they are entitled to the same things every other 2 people who are together.

My question is around same-sex marriage in religion. A religion is what it is, that can be defined as backward or whatever, that isn't really the point. The fact is the parameters are set. For that reason, Im wondering if same-sex marriage should be allowed in specific religions. I mean the entire premise is that this was set down thousands of years ago for us by God, or various gods etc, depending on the religion, so can it now be redefined? And if so, surely that means everything can be redefined... Surely the religion cant allow it to be redefined as it would undermine the entire thing...

Many religions already allow same sex marriages.

However, it's really a matter for the religions themselves what form a marriage within that religion takes.

This referendum is about civil marriage, so won't change that position. It will be up to the relgiions concerned to change their position.

As a general principle, Religions change their views on issues frequently - eg slavery, women's equality, polygamy etc.

tayto lover · 22-12-2014 03:33PM

Anyone know if there's any independent polls on this as yet?

I'm predicting a 72% Yes against a 28% No.

Might do a wee bet with Paddy Powers.

floggg · 22-12-2014 03:37PM

fran17 wrote: »

Exactly,I don't know why the other posters were being so evasive.The only difference between straight people and gay people is sex,So I really don't understand the whole gay pride/parades/attention thing if the only difference is something as insignificant as sex.

Because frankly, people like you made it an issue for centuries.* They made it so that gay people had to hide and pretend to be something they weren't, or face ostracisation, discrimination and abuse.

Gay pride is a way of saying "we won't hide, we are who we are and we deserve to be respected. And while you're at it, come party with us because we are an inclusive event, with many straight participants and supporters and we are evidenced to further integration rather than divide."

*Before you play the victim card, we have seen some of th posts you have thanked here, which have been utterly homophobic and factually inaccurate.**

** before somebody else plays the "be nice or people won't vote for you card", I'm talking specifically about Fran and the various posts he has thanked here, which even Iona's lawyers would agree were homophobic and factually inaccurate.

Knasher · 22-12-2014 03:38PM

I transferred my vote down to Cork from my home place, because I'm never there to vote. I hadn't before now because I had never lived in a place for a long enough stretch of time to really justify it (I do have a quite high bar of laziness though). But I wanted to be able to vote specifically for this referendum.

MayoAreMagic · 22-12-2014 03:43PM

SW wrote: »

for those at the back of the class, we're discussing civil marriage!

Well if you had read my post you would see that I addressed civil marriage and asked a question about marriage in the eyes of religion. Are people not allowed to ask questions? Also, the thread is about marriage, not specifically civil marriage... Maybe read what is in front of you before falling over yourself to put up a sarky comment in future...

eyescreamcone · 22-12-2014 03:47PM

What are the religionists really afraid of?

Are they afraid of not being in control anymore?

OldNotWIse · 22-12-2014 03:48PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Anyone know if there's any independent polls on this as yet?

I'm predicting a 72% Yes against a 28% No.

Might do a wee bet with Paddy Powers.

We'll have a dreadful turnout anyway. Irish people are great at whining and b.itching but ask them to actually get off the sofa and vote? :rolleyes: I've had the vote for 12 years and have voted at every single opportunity because I am not narrow minded enough to only exercise my right when it affects my own little bubble, and it baffles me how many people have declined to vote on issues of huge social importance in the past. Yet, take to the street and ask anyone their opinion on something and guaranteed you'll be met with very strong convictions.

MayoAreMagic · 22-12-2014 03:50PM

kylith wrote: »

* ignoring the hundreds of other religions globally which did and do marry SSCs no problem.

Why would they be relevant to a question specifically about the ones who don't?

You see, the problem here is, people are assuming that I am against same-sex marriage, or that I am a religious person etc, I am actually neither. It is just an observation, and general question, do people think religions against gay marriage should be directed/pressured/whatever you want to call it, into changing their rules? Surely discussion in all aspects of the topic is a good thing?

GalwayGuitar · 22-12-2014 03:51PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

OK, cause it's a slow day here let me expand a little.. maybe this will make sense, maybe it won't

I've never been one for following the herd, or doing things because you just "HAVE" to. I live my life according to the values I was raised with and my sense of right and wrong.
As such I'm not very PC, nor a raving sexist/racist either, but it does give me an objectivity that seems lacking a lot of the time in the group-think Facebook "like" generation

So, on this issue as I've no strong feelings either way I likely won't vote (however that said if on the day I am passing the polling station and remembered the card I may just drop in and vote Yes) but whether it's this issue, or a general election, I will do what I think is right .. not what others think I should, or to gain peer acceptance. I wonder how many of the people posting their support here will actually make the effort on the day, especially if it's raining, they have training or whatever on?

Bottom line I have no stake in this so while I hope it passes for those affected, I don't feel strongly enough to do so "just cause"

This is how I feel too. I don't have a dog in the fight so I won't be voting. I could pretend I care about gay rights, but I don't. However I have no doubt that the yes side will win.

OldNotWIse · 22-12-2014 03:52PM

GalwayGuitar wrote: »

This is how I feel too. I don't have a dog in the fight so I won't be voting. I could pretend I care about gay rights, but I don't. However I have no doubt that the yes side will win.

Yet, or that you know of.

endacl · 22-12-2014 03:54PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Maybe read what is in front of you before falling over yourself to put up a sarky comment in future...

Actually, the thread is about the upcoming referendum on civil marriage.

Maybe read the thread before posting in in? Or even just the title?

jobbridge4life · 22-12-2014 03:55PM

GalwayGuitar wrote: »

This is how I feel too. I don't have a dog in the fight so I won't be voting. I could pretend I care about gay rights, but I don't. However I have no doubt that the yes side will win.

Again astounded by the level of apathy and narrowminded self-interested thought emerging.

Delirium · 22-12-2014 03:56PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well if you had read my post you would see that I addressed civil marriage and asked a question about marriage in the eyes of religion. Are people not allowed to ask questions?

Of course you can but it gets a bit tiresome when people are shoehorning religious marriage into a discussion on a referendum on civil marriage.

Also, the thread is about marriage, not specifically civil marriage... Maybe read what is in front of you before falling over yourself to put up a sarky comment in future...

Do you not understand what a referendum is? It's the people voting on civil law, not religious law.

GalwayGuitar · 22-12-2014 03:56PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Again astounded by the level of apathy and narrowminded self-interested thought emerging.

Well I could pretend I deeply care about gay marriage and that would make you feel better but I don't, why lie?

MayoAreMagic · 22-12-2014 03:58PM

endacl wrote: »

Actually, the thread is about the upcoming referendum on civil marriage.

Maybe read the thread before posting in in? Or even just the title?

No it's actually a question about whether people will vote or not.

Subsequent discussion around marriage, both civil and religious, is a natural progression and I see no issue with either. Some people do for some reason...

endacl · 22-12-2014 03:58PM

GalwayGuitar wrote: »

Well I could pretend I deeply care about gay marriage and that would make you feel better but I don't, why lie?

Yet you care enough to post...

GalwayGuitar · 22-12-2014 03:59PM

endacl wrote: »

Yet you care enough to post...

Well the thread asks 'will you vote'? and I gave my answer.

floggg · 22-12-2014 03:59PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Why would they be relevant to a question specifically about the ones who don't?

You see, the problem here is, people are assuming that I am against same-sex marriage, or that I am a religious person etc, I am actually neither. It is just an observation, and general question, do people think religions against gay marriage should be directed/pressured/whatever you want to call it, into changing their rules? Surely discussion in all aspects of the topic is a good thing?

Well unless your a member of the religion concerned, your views are irrelavant.

Nobody can tell another what to believe, and the state certainly can. All we can do is ask for equality as a matter of law, and after that it's really irrelavant how other people's religiona view the issue.

kylith · 22-12-2014 04:02PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Why would they be relevant to a question specifically about the ones who don't?

Which would be why I specified that I wasn't taking into account, but since your post was ambiguous mentioning only 'religions' I wished to inform those who may not know that many extant religions as well as those throughout history have had no problem at all with SSM.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

You see, the problem here is, people are assuming that I am against same-sex marriage, or that I am a religious person etc, I am actually neither. It is just an observation, and general question, do people think religions against gay marriage should be directed/pressured/whatever you want to call it, into changing their rules? Surely discussion in all aspects of the topic is a good thing?

I do not think that religious ministers should be forced by law to marry SSCs if they don't want to. However, I would welcome community and congregation pressure on them to change their stance BACK to being welcoming of SSCs and SSM.

MayoAreMagic · 22-12-2014 04:02PM

SW wrote: »

Of course you can but it gets a bit tiresome when people are shoehorning religious marriage into a discussion on a referendum on civil marriage.

Do you not understand what a referendum is? It's the people voting on civil law, not religious law.

What is tiresome about it? The topic is a question as regards will you vote or not, no more. Digression to the topic of civil marriage in general is not that different to digression to religious marriage. If one is being shoe-horned then so must the other, as the answer to this thread is simply yes or no.

Maybe you don't want to speak about religious marriage, well you don't have to respond if you don't want to. But it is a valid facet of the topic.

jobbridge4life · 22-12-2014 04:03PM

GalwayGuitar wrote: »

Well I could pretend I deeply care about gay marriage and that would make you feel better but I don't, why lie?

I am not asking for you to lie I am just a little shocked that there are people out there in the world who can see injustice and are just like 'bleh don't care'. Its just not the way people I know think. Ever.

Also people need to realise it is not simply about 'gay marriage' or 'gay rights' when any group or individual has their rights diminished it diminishes all of us.

Annasopra · 22-12-2014 04:03PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

First off I will say, I believe all people are entitled to the same rights, and have no issue with 2 people same-sex or otherwise, being able to have a civil marriage, where they are entitled to the same things every other 2 people who are together.

My question is around same-sex marriage in religion. A religion is what it is, that can be defined as backward or whatever, that isn't really the point. The fact is the parameters are set. For that reason, Im wondering if same-sex marriage should be allowed in specific religions. I mean the entire premise is that this was set down thousands of years ago for us by God, or various gods etc, depending on the religion, so can it now be redefined? And if so, surely that means everything can be redefined... Surely the religion cant allow it to be redefined as it would undermine the entire thing...

Religious marriage is not what this discussion is about. Its about civil marriage.

OldNotWIse · 22-12-2014 04:05PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What is tiresome about it? The topic is a question as regards will you vote or not, no more. Digression to the topic of civil marriage in general is not that different to digression to religious marriage. If one is being shoe-horned then so must the other, as the answer to this thread is simply yes or no.

Maybe you don't want to speak about religious marriage, well you don't have to respond if you don't want to. But it is a valid facet of the topic.

I think plenty of people who have opted for a non-church marriage would disagree with you.

Knasher · 22-12-2014 04:06PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It is just an observation, and general question, do people think religions against gay marriage should be directed/pressured/whatever you want to call it, into changing their rules? Surely discussion in all aspects of the topic is a good thing?

Well if religious groups want to change their rules, then they can. And if they do it will be because people inside the group persuaded them to. I can't think of any religions whose rules are entirely immutable, they may change slowly, but they absolutely do change. So I'd disagree with your initial premise.

Annasopra · 22-12-2014 04:08PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Why would they be relevant to a question specifically about the ones who don't?

You see, the problem here is, people are assuming that I am against same-sex marriage, or that I am a religious person etc, I am actually neither. It is just an observation, and general question, do people think religions against gay marriage should be directed/pressured/whatever you want to call it, into changing their rules? Surely discussion in all aspects of the topic is a good thing?

No. Religions should make their own decisions.

OldNotWIse · 22-12-2014 04:08PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I am not asking for you to lie I am just a little shocked that there are people out there in the world who can see injustice and are just like 'bleh don't care'. Its just not the way people I know think. Ever.

Also people need to realise it is not simply about 'gay marriage' or 'gay rights' when any group or individual has their rights diminished it diminishes all of us.

And although it may not affect them now, how do they know it wont affect people in their lives in the future? Close friends who have not come out? Children who might grow up to be gay? I wonder will the same people feel the same way if there is a referndum wrt the 8th amendement? Will they say, "oh sure I don't have a womb so I won't vote"?

PopePalpatine · 22-12-2014 04:08PM

1123heavy wrote: »

I also admire it when I see two normal people in a loving marriage, it's a wonderful sight and a sign of God's gift of love to mankind that he can allow and has instilled within people the ability to express such feelings.

HOWEVER, there are limits in life, and homosexuality transgresses those limits like no other. It is unnatural, in just about everything in this life opposites are designed to attract, from humans to magnets. The fact that two people of the same sex are claiming to have "affection" for each other only says that they have been brainwashed as youth or have not been brought up properly and taught proper values. I am relatively young and while growing up we were regularly reminded how it was "OK" to be gay, we were shown films, had discussions and all the rest about being gay. So much so that it almost felt that we were being forced to come out as gay and it couldn't be possible that an entire class didn't have one gay person. I can perfectly understand some poor naive person in that environment forming doubts in their mind and beginning to get paranoid, asking themselves "is it possible that I'm gay ?", then when even the slightest mentioning of it is made to a counselor they are almost forced to say they're "gay" as doing otherwise will only lead everyone to believe they are gay but just don't want to tell. All this pressure can seriously mess with the mind of a poor young person and they can almost convince themselves they're gay when they're not.

The only solution to this nonsense is to stop the issue at it's source and to try and stop it being "accepted" in society, as quite frankly it's a load of nonsense. Those who have managed to convince themselves they're gay shall be made seek appropriate help to cure their illness that was forced upon them during their youth. Voting yes in this referendum will be another grave step in the wrong direction, the future of Ireland is in our hands, I do NOT want to mess it up !!!!

You're a sad excuse for a human, and you have my pity.

MOD: Take a few days off.

flunkyfearsome · 22-12-2014 04:09PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What is tiresome about it? The topic is a question as regards will you vote or not, no more. Digression to the topic of civil marriage in general is not that different to digression to religious marriage. If one is being shoe-horned then so must the other, as the answer to this thread is simply yes or no.

Maybe you don't want to speak about religious marriage, well you don't have to respond if you don't want to. But it is a valid facet of the topic.

Simples the religious aspect is called Matrimony, The referendum is about Civil marriage which has zero to do with Religion. Also these take place in registry offices and not ⛪

Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?

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