Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?

Saipanne · 20-12-2014 10:58PM

Valetta wrote: »

There's not going to be a vote for (or against) gay marriage.

Edited.

fran17 · 20-12-2014 11:00PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Where has it been said that the Irish public are homophobic?

Post #602 and #680 in this thread for starters.

shruikan2553 · 20-12-2014 11:06PM

602:

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I don't believe so, unless you have something against marriage in general.

680:

VinLieger wrote: »

Considering what they exactly said there where they consider homosexuals inferior I think im allowed to call it exactly what it is by the very definition of the word bigotry.

Also no I dont believe anyone who opposes it is anything but a bigot since I have yet to encounter a single argument against equal marriage rights that is not rooted in bigotry to some degree.

Youre going to have to help me out here.

bodice ripper · 20-12-2014 11:07PM

fran17 wrote: »

Post #602 and #680 in this thread for starters.

#602 does not say the Irish public are homophobes. And being pissed off at digging that one out and discovering it to be bull****, I am disinclined to dig out the second.

fran17 · 20-12-2014 11:44PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

#602 does not say the Irish public are homophobes. And being pissed off at digging that one out and discovering it to be bull****, I am disinclined to dig out the second.

I stand corrected,the people who agree with the lgbt position are not but the population who don't,who I believe to be the majority,are.No matter how pissed off you choose to get that is a fact.How about you,do you believe it's possible to oppose gay unions and not be a "homophobe"?

shruikan2553 · 20-12-2014 11:46PM

fran17 wrote: »

I stand corrected,the people who agree with the lgbt position are not but the population who don't,who I believe to be the majority,are.No matter how pissed off you choose to get that is a fact.How about you,do you believe it's possible to oppose gay unions and not be a "homophobe"?

But its not, the fact is the opposite.

The bolded bits are the problem that keeps coming up, a lot of people on the no side confuse what they think based on nothing but somehow think it is fact when the actual facts say they are wrong.

A survey carried out in 2008 showed that 84% of Irish people supported civil marriage or civil partnerships for same-sex couples, with 58% (up from 51%) supporting full marriage rights in registry offices. The number who believe same-sex couples should only be allowed to have civil partnerships fell in the same period, from 33% to 26%.[50]

A public survey in October 2008 revealed 62% of adults would vote Yes in a referendum to extend civil marriage to same-sex couples. A breakdown of the results shows that support is strongest among younger people and in urban areas. Women were more supportive at 68% compared to 56% of men. There was slightly less support for same-sex couples being given the right to adopt. A total of 58% of those under 50 believe same-sex couples should be able to adopt, falling to 33% among the over-50s. A total of 54% believe the definition of the family unit in the Irish Constitution should be changed to include same-sex families.[51]

A survey commissioned by MarriagEquality in February 2009 indicated that 62% of Irish people supported same-sex marriage and would vote in favour of it if a referendum were held.[52]

In September 2010, an Irish Times/Behaviour Attitudes survey of 1,006 people showed that 67% felt that same-sex couples should be allowed to marry. This majority extended across all age groups, with the exception of the over-65s, while 66% of Catholics were in favour of same-sex marriage. Only 25% disagreed that same-sex couples should be allowed to marry, opposition that was concentrated among older people and those in rural areas. In terms of same-sex adoption, 46% were in support of it and 38% opposed. However, a majority of females, 18-44-year-olds, and urban dwellers supported the idea. The survey also showed that 91% of people would not think less of someone who came out as homosexual, while 60% felt the recent civil partnership legislation was not an attack on marriage.[53]

A poll in March 2011 (by the Sunday Times/RED C), showed that 73% of people supported allowing same-sex marriage (with 53% 'agreeing strongly' with the idea), while 60% felt that same-sex couples should be allowed to adopt children.[54]

A poll in January 2012 (by RED C for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform) showed that 73% of voters supported the idea of same-sex marriages being recognised in the constitution.[55][56]

A late 2012 poll by Millward Brown Lansdowne shows that 75% would vote in favour of extending marriage to same-sex couples.[57]

A poll in November 2013 (by RED C for Paddy Power) showed that 76% of voters intended to support the introduction of same-sex marriage in any referendum, with 18% opposed and 6% undecided (with the undecideds excluded the ratio is 81% support, 19% against). Support was highest among women (85%), those under 44 (87%), Labour supporters (96%) and those living in Dublin and commuter counties (83%).[58]

A poll in February 2014 (by RED C for RTÉ's Prime Time and The Sunday Business Post) showed that 76% of voters would vote yes to the introduction of same-sex marriage in any referendum.[59]

A poll in April 2014 by the Irish Times and Ipsos MRBI found that 67% would vote in favour of same-sex marriage and 21% against, with 12% undecided. When the undecided are excluded, 76% are in favour and 24% against.[60]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

I can find this stuff within a minute of googling. Why is it so difficult for some people to check this kind of thing first?

Nodin · 20-12-2014 11:47PM

fran17 wrote: »

I stand corrected,the people who agree with the lgbt position are not but the population who don't,who I believe to be the majority,are.No matter how pissed off you choose to get that is a fact.How about you,do you believe it's possible to oppose gay unions and not be a "homophobe"?

Well that depends Fran. Why do you oppose "gay unions"?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 20-12-2014 11:57PM

fran17 wrote: »

I stand corrected,the people who agree with the lgbt position are not but the population who don't,who I believe to be the majority,are.No matter how pissed off you choose to get that is a fact.How about you,do you believe it's possible to oppose gay unions and not be a "homophobe"?

Well that depends on how you define homophobic.

bodice ripper · 21-12-2014 12:38AM

fran17 wrote: »

I stand corrected,the people who agree with the lgbt position are not but the population who don't,who I believe to be the majority,are.No matter how pissed off you choose to get that is a fact.How about you,do you believe it's possible to oppose gay unions and not be a "homophobe"?

This post is almost completely unintelligible.

SpaceSasqwatch · 21-12-2014 01:08AM

fran17 wrote: »

do you believe it's possible to oppose gay unions and not be a "homophobe"?

No.You can dress your bigotry up under the guise of religious semantics or what ever but at the end of the day its simple bigotry.

As a straight male with no gay friends but a few acquaintances it makes zero difference to me or indeed male/female marraige as an instituition if LGBT people can get married with the full rights afforded to straight people.

But I see it as a civil right and will be voting for it.

And I'd also like to think I'd vote against slavery even though im not black.Just because its the right thing to do.

floggg · 21-12-2014 03:42AM

david75 wrote: »

Something i do have trouble with, and its probably stupid but speaking as a gay man in a long term relationship(8 years..) i dont get why we march on gay pride, the whole idea of pride being to celebrate our uniqueness and other qualities, then we march for marriage equality..we celebrate being different then demand the right to be the same..i think the normalisation process is good but its a double edged sword too..probably not explaining myself very well, just something I wonder about..

Equality =/= conformity. We dont need to prove we are the same as the majority to have the same rights as them. Indeed, if we are forced to conform to be considered equal, then we arent equal.

We should all be allowed to be ourselves, and express our individuality, and still be seen as equal in the eyes of the law. Gay pride etc is doing just that - acknowledging that we are different in certain ways, and that we should be entitled to express ourselves freely in public. It doesnt mean we arent entitled to equal treatment as a matter of law.

floggg · 21-12-2014 03:50AM

padd b1975 wrote: »

Why have so many gay couples availed of the legislation if it's not?

Should they not have ignored it on a point of principle if the overwhelming consensus amongst gays is that the legislation is inadequate?

Because some legal rights and privileges are better than none.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Someone already put up a link with the differences between the two. I could see civil partnership getting a lot of the stuff anyway. Why waste time and not just make it marriage for everyone?

Are people really stupid enough to sit there and think that its ok, its not called marriage so my personal beliefs are safe?

I think the point is that they would be happy as long as they have some way to remind everybody that gay people and their relationships aren't equal. Its not really about the substance of the legal relationship, and more about reminding gay people of their place.

porsche959 wrote: »

See, it's exactly this kind of shouting and bullying from the liberal left that I find troubling.

"We have the correct set of opinions to hold, and if you differ in anyway, then you're just wrong, and also a bigot."

Do you know many of the early gay rights campaigners were against gay marriage? Some still are to this day, though understandably, in the current environment they tend to keep their opinion to themselves.

There is a difference between thinking people can do better than marriage, and thinking gay people shouldnt be allowed marry.

And there is a simple way to prove that there is a good, evidence based argument against marriage equality - provide one.

floggg · 21-12-2014 04:00AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I find this victimhood campaign technique really fascinating. People who say horrible, hurtful and nasty things get called out on it and then suddenly they claim victimhood status. It's really really fascinating. It says to me that they often feel very uncomfortable when they are called out on what they say so instead of holding their ground and attempting to stand by their opinion they turn the tables. They turn things on their head and claim they are the victims. Yet you never see a lot of these people condemning the nasty hurtful things the no side say. It's an attempt to covertly change the agenda and divert the debate from the actual issues. It's really a fascinating tactic that those of us of the yes side need to be aware of.

Dont you know the only victims of homophobia are the homophobes?

RobYourBuilder · 21-12-2014 04:02AM

SpaceSasqwatch wrote: »

And I'd also like to think I'd vote against slavery even though im not black.Just because its the right thing to do.

You're about the tenth person on this thread to make this point. What are you on about?

Slavery is not legal in Ireland. According to the UN, there are up to 21 million people, of all races, enslaved today. Not just blacks. So what do you mean by "I'd like to think I'd vote against slavery?" Was there ever an anti slavery referendum? I'm not sure.

You're just parroting each other.

floggg · 21-12-2014 04:06AM

fran17 wrote: »

I stand corrected,the people who agree with the lgbt position are not but the population who don't,who I believe to be the majority,are.No matter how pissed off you choose to get that is a fact.How about you,do you believe it's possible to oppose gay unions and not be a "homophobe"?

Yes, you can just be ignorant and lacking of any understanding of marriage, relationships, child welfare and human nature.

Though I'm not sure if thats a preferable position to be in..

fran17 · 21-12-2014 10:34AM

bodice ripper wrote: »

This post is almost completely unintelligible.

And this post is completely avoidance.

fran17 · 21-12-2014 10:36AM

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

You're about the tenth person on this thread to make this point. What are you on about?

Slavery is not legal in Ireland. According to the UN, there are up to 21 million people, of all races, enslaved today. Not just blacks. So what do you mean by "I'd like to think I'd vote against slavery?" Was there ever an anti slavery referendum? I'm not sure.

You're just parroting each other.

I believe its called a strawman argument Rob.

Canis Lupus · 21-12-2014 10:40AM

fran17 wrote: »

And this post is completely avoidance.

No no, take his/her statement at face value. The post she quoted doesn't make any sense. At all. Try rewriting whilst sober.

Annasopra · 21-12-2014 10:48AM

fran17 wrote: »

I believe its called a strawman argument Rob.

Do you even know what a strawman is?

DEFTLEFTHAND · 21-12-2014 11:07AM

Look people have different opinions and some of the smug smarmy pro sh1t on here could sway a young man to vote no. What's the definition of that horribly misused word bigotry? It could apply to some people here refusing to accept different opinions.

Respect your opponents and keep in form, remember there's a huge voting public out there who are not boards members, try and give off a good impression.

fran17 · 21-12-2014 11:14AM

Canis Lupus wrote: »

No no, take his/her statement at face value. The post she quoted doesn't make any sense. At all. Try rewriting whilst sober.

I don't drink alcohol so that's put that to bed.I cannot be held accountable for others intellectual failings.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Do you even know what a strawman is?

You answered it by your reply joey.If you want to reduce the debate to schoolyard he said,she said then that's fine.

shruikan2553 · 21-12-2014 11:27AM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Look people have different opinions and some of the smug smarmy pro sh1t on here could sway a young man to vote no. What's the definition of that horribly misused word bigotry? It could apply to some people here refusing to accept different opinions.

Respect your opponents and keep in form, remember there's a huge voting public out there who are not boards members, try and give off a good impression.

People are entitled to their own opinions, not their own facts. People are free to think anothers opinion is crap. Again people comment on the "be nice or you wont get your dessert" while ignoring the unnatural lesser people comments.

bodice ripper · 21-12-2014 11:36AM

fran17 wrote: »

And this post is completely avoidance.

The only bit I can catch is wether I think you can be against gay marriage and not be a homophobe.

Sure I do. You could be a killjoy, scared of change, resentful, a busybody, brainwashed by a book you don't know the provinance of, a prude, hard of thinking, jealously guarding your own status, stuck in your ways, desperate to stick it to the liberals, desperate to stick it to the government, parroting your parents views, and/or flailing around looking for something to feel strongly about.

I am sure there are more.

Annasopra · 21-12-2014 11:48AM

fran17 wrote: »

I don't drink alcohol so that's put that to bed.I cannot be held accountable for others intellectual failings.

You answered it by your reply joey.If you want to reduce the debate to schoolyard he said,she said then that's fine.

The post still makes no sense and its clear you havent got a clue what a strawman is.

cloudatlas · 21-12-2014 11:53AM

It's strange the lack of empathy that others have for their fellow human beings. Well it doesn't effect me so **** it I have no social duty. I have a friend who doesn't necessarily care about gay rights but was so incensed by the Iona Institute trying to tell him how society should be that he's going to vote anyway.

SpaceTime · 21-12-2014 12:00PM

Yeah! Definitely voting for it and I'm also encouraging my liberal but lazy friends to register and turn out.

The biggest risk of a no vote would be to underestimate how a committed homophobes are to the cause! They'll turn out early and in large numbers.

To me this is an opportunity to do a few things:

1. Extend marriage rights to gay people. Seriously, if you're not related to at least one gay person, you're living in a bubble so, this does impact pretty much every family in Ireland.

2. It sends gay people a message that the majority of Irish people actually support, accept and like them. I think that's a huge deal. It's a bit like giving a historically marginalised group of Irish people the "national hug". It's far more significant than a piece of legislation or a Supreme Court ruling. It's actually a majority decision. If it's a no, on the other hand, it'll be a total slap in the face for a lot of people.

3. It sends a message that Ireland is no longer a backwards, conservative, theocratic anachronism and that we're moving towards being a forward looking place.

4. I'll probably get moaned at for this one : it has economic implications. We're trying to position ourselves as a centre of the IT, creative technologies, high finance etc etc. Being a gay friendly place could actually impact on that.
Not being gay friendly also drives some very bright and very creative Irish people out of the country for no good reason too.
So, even for purely self-interest economic reasons there's a big argument in favour of throwing away the stereotype (which very much exists) that Ireland's a deeply conservative backwater.

So, as the old saying goes : vote early! Vote often!

B_Wayne · 21-12-2014 12:45PM

I do not view every person who votes no as homophobic but I imagine ignorance is no doubt applicable to them. There is no rational reason to limit the rights of gay people contrary to what individuals such as Fran believe.

I do however think that many of the people that are so passionately opposed to same sex marriage or arguing the case against it in this thread while claiming to be victims of an agenda are homophobic. All you have to do is look over their post history or even just their arguments to see that this is true. They wouldn't let a gay person child mind, let alone marry..

mikemac1 · 21-12-2014 12:49PM

I'm hoping few of ye are put in charge of the pro campaign. Or indeed any campaign ever.

Blasting potential voters who are not 100% with you with a variety of insults isn't going to attract voters

mikemac1 · 21-12-2014 12:59PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Or is it just those who you oppose who have to play nice?

Look for a post with my views here, you won't find it as I never posted. Well a joking one about tax

The OP asked:

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I think this apathy might be the biggest risk to the referendum and also the appeal of giving the government a harmless (in my view) kicking.

So I posted about potential voters. I'm not reading 32 pages

The no side wins with a low turnout most likely. Are the pro side looking to attract voters or are they not

Annasopra · 21-12-2014 01:10PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

You said you hope that people who you expect to drive neutral voters away from the yes side take charge of the yes campaign.

I dont think that was what he said.

Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?

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