Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Am I being unreasonable?

Options
  • 17-12-2014 11:50am
    #1
    Ken79
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭


    Hello there!

    I was hoping to get some objective opinions on my situation to make sure I'm not being unreasonable. It may be a bit long by the time I finish typing but I'll try to include all relevant info. Thanks in advance.

    - Ken



    Right so, long story short, my landlord needs to sell the house in the middle of a 2 year lease due to pressure from the banks. It hasn't been foreclosed or anything (that I'm aware of) but the banks are basically saying sell or else.

    She is an accidental landlord, a lovely lady, but one who is in a bit of an impossible situation. They were forced to emigrate and, obviously rented the house to us for a 2 year lease (they offered 5 at the time but we were hoping to be in a position to buy soon so opted for 2). We could have taken a 1 year lease but we knew part 4 tenancies weren't worth the paper they aren't written on and wanted an actual home rather than a house (we are newly weds who have lived together for nearly ten years and who are trying to start a family - so surely a bit of stability isn't too much to ask for?). The plan was always for them to come back so we never thought living here would be permanent but the banks appear to have forced their hand.

    Anyway, the viewing came and went and, in fairness, she consented to a severely reduced rent to make up for the invasion of privacy. Although I left her with little choice - I'm nice but privacy was a big thing when negotiating the lease and she promised we'd be left alone. And I understood my bargaining position. (So maybe I'm not that nice?)

    Several times during the process she told us that once the house was sold we'd get 8 weeks notice to leave prompting me to go to Threshold to verify that she could not do this - which I informed her of when negotiating the discount. They are, after all in a mess and all they want to do is get out from under that - and we don't want to be the ones to prevent them. We did say, when negotiating the reduced rent for viewings, that we would move on if we found somewhere suitable, while making it crystal clear that we will not commit to any sort of deadline for obvious reasons. There has been nothing worth viewing in the right areas these past few months. It's not even a matter of price - it's sheer lack of supply.

    Now the house has been sold and we got a letter from her stating that we have 8 weeks notice. She did preface that by telling us how great we were and how happy she was with us as tenants which is always nice to hear but a kindly worded illegal eviction is still an illegal eviction (assuming it is, in fact, illegal).
    The house is perfect and and the rent was always on time - often months in advance when asked as they needed extra cash at one stage to try and fight off the banks so we did. We're sensible people I like to think and we are good with money after having gone through many years of struggling.

    Now, this 8 weeks notice thing has annoyed me rightly. I have told her over an over again that she cannot do that and to research the law and she has still come back trying to put us under pressure. I get that she is under pressure but it's not my fault. In response, I told her that if she wanted a deadline for us to move out that I wouldn't consent to one sooner than end of March and that the rent would have to be nil until then. I also told her I'd want the deposit returned immediately as I don't want to be stuck with the who owes me a deposit problem. (apparently the old ll returns it to you and you hand it to the new ll - a weird setup). The alternative was we stay (normal rent of course) until our lease expires or until we find a suitable place as I said I would.

    I know 3 or 4 months free rent seems like a lot but moving is expensive, my work involves very long hours right now and, frankly, If I'm going to put myself under this kind of pressure then I'm not going to do it for free. Even with this timeframe, I'm seriously concerned that we might not find a suitable place and if we do we may have to overpay. Plus, she is buying me out of a lease so that she can sell the house - I could ask for far more and my reading of the situation is that she'd have no choice but to pay.


    I have two questions really. Am I being unfair and is there anything I might not be aware of that might give her a right to kick us out mid-lease?
    Plus, if there is anyone who can relate to this situation I'd be interested to hear what you think.


    The sooner we get to buy and stop being tenants the better. Every single house (bar one) has had issues with landlords - be it letting themselves or others into the garden unannounced, removing items that came with the house midway through the lease or this situation. You just don't get to have a stable home when renting it seems. But thats just tangental moan.


    Again, thanks for reading.
    Tagged:


«134567…10

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    borderlinemeath
    Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    As far as I'm aware, one of the few legal ways for a landlord to break a lease (of whatever duration) is to sell the house. The other is to take back the house for themselves or a family member to move into.

    What is it that you are disputing here? Is it the duration of the notice period? Because if you, as you say are in "the middle of a 2 year lease" then at most you would be entitled to 42 days notice -which is far less than 8 weeks. I don't think you have much grounds to stand on tbh.

    Also have you read this thread where it seems Threshold have been giving out illegal advice to overhold if tenants face eviction? They may tell you what you want to hear but it may not be legally or morally right.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057343907

    Given the situation, however difficult it may be for you, I do think you are being unreasonable.


  • Options
    #3
    Ken79
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Ken79


    You are confusing a part 4 tenancy with a fixed term lease I believe. Under a part 4 they can break the lease if they sell the house (or give to family) but, according to Threshold, with a fixed term lease the lease remains valid even in the event of a sale.


  • Options
    #4
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,746 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Sorry, but I think you need to get proper legal advice, from a real lawyer.

    Also you need to consider who you will be using as a referee for your next rental property, as you could about to make it difficult to get a good reference from the current one. It socks, but sometimes what's legal and what you need to do don't line up so well.


  • Options
    #5
    dharma200
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭dharma200


    absoloutley not. The threat of not getting a reference is NO WAY a loophole that landlords can get out of their responsibilities. This is horrendous advice. I would never use this as a thought process in order to have someone screw me over a legal tenancy. OP do not fall into that trap. get yourself straight to threshold and find out for a FACT what your rights are.


  • Options
    #6
    Ken79
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Ken79


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Sorry, but I think you need to get proper legal advice, from a real lawyer.

    Also you need to consider who you will be using as a referee for your next rental property, as you could about to make it difficult to get a good reference from the current one. It socks, but sometimes what's legal and what you need to do don't line up so well.

    To be honest, if it comes to that I will but for now I'll rely on Threshold and the PRTB process.

    As for the reference, she will give us a good reference. Her dad in law lives across the road and he'd kill her if she lied. We have been good neighbours as well as good tenants. And I have tonnes of correspondence already stating how wonderful we are and how lucky she is to have us. Besides, she will need us to move and she's hardly going to prevent that with a bad reference so I don't think thats a concern.

    And if it was a concern, I'd still stick to my guns and demand my legal rights out of principle.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    your wrong borderline that is only something that refers to part4 and not a fixed term lease. Unless their is a break clause written into the lease the LL cannot do this.

    Anyway back to the OPs post.

    Are you unreasonable ? That's open to debate, technically the LL is in the wrong, but I do think you are really pushing what's reasonable to the limit too. Reduced rent to allow viewings seems fair enough but to me there is in that scenario an indication of willingness for you to leave early if they sold up. Otherwise why let them view in the first place when they had no legal right to do so ?

    You don't mention how long the house was on the market i.e how long you have had to try and find alternative accommodation to move to. Not that it really matters but I think in the context of giving you an opinion outside what your legally entitled to its pertinent.

    Banks will not give a mortgage on a property with sitting tenants so it may well be that the LL has no option to extend you the courtesy of a March exit whilst still keeping the sale on track. I wouldn't see most buyers being willing to wait as as such the LL is in a tricky situation.

    Again legally you don't have to do anything BUT also be aware that if the house was reposessed you have no rights at all and can be turfed out pretty much immediately who don't have to abide in anyway to your lease or even part 4. Whilst its unlikely to happen I think its something you should bear in mind in your decision making process.

    I think a compromise on your demands would perhaps be more reasonable. I.e get your deposit back and get rent free until the 8 weeks. From my personal view I wouldn't take advantage of somebody whos clearly in a stressful and vunerable position. Granted I wouldn't put myself into a position of disadvantage either but I think your erring on the side of taking advantage here.

    that's my personal view anyway.


  • Options
    #8
    Ken79
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Ken79


    dharma200 wrote: »
    absoloutley not. The threat of not getting a reference is NO WAY a loophole that landlords can get out of their responsibilities. This is horrendous advice. I would never use this as a thought process in order to have someone screw me over a legal tenancy. OP do not fall into that trap. get yourself straight to threshold and find out for a FACT what your rights are.

    I have done and Threshold have said we are absolutely safe. My problem is she comes across as absolutely certain so I'm looking for something that I or Threshold, for that matter, may not have considered.


  • Options
    #9
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    You want your rent to be nil til March because moving is expensive?
    Because she gave you an illegal eviction notice that you don't even know if it's illegal?


    Get proper advice


  • Options
    #10
    nxbyveromdwjpg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭nxbyveromdwjpg


    bjork wrote: »
    You want your rent to be nil til March because moving is expensive?

    Yes that part sounds out for me too. Would moving be cheaper after the lease expires?

    Just be reasonable, as she seems to be being, and leave.


  • Options
    #11
    Ken79
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Ken79


    D3PO wrote: »
    your wrong borderline that is only something that refers to part4 and not a fixed term lease. Unless their is a break clause written into the lease the LL cannot do this.

    Anyway back to the OPs post.

    Are you unreasonable ? That's open to debate, technically the LL is in the wrong, but I do think you are really pushing what's reasonable to the limit too. Reduced rent to allow viewings seems fair enough but to me there is in that scenario an indication of willingness for you to leave early if they sold up. Otherwise why let them view in the first place when they had no legal right to do so ?

    You don't mention how long the house was on the market i.e how long you have had to try and find alternative accommodation to move to. Not that it really matters but I think in the context of giving you an opinion outside what your legally entitled to its pertinent.

    Banks will not give a mortgage on a property with sitting tenants so it may well be that the LL has no option to extend you the courtesy of a March exit whilst still keeping the sale on track. I wouldn't see most buyers being willing to wait as as such the LL is in a tricky situation.

    Again legally you don't have to do anything BUT also be aware that if the house was reposessed you have no rights at all and can be turfed out pretty much immediately who don't have to abide in anyway to your lease or even part 4. Whilst its unlikely to happen I think its something you should bear in mind in your decision making process.

    I think a compromise on your demands would perhaps be more reasonable. I.e get your deposit back and get rent free until the 8 weeks. From my personal view I wouldn't take advantage of somebody whos clearly in a stressful and vunerable position. Granted I wouldn't put myself into a position of disadvantage either but I think your erring on the side of taking advantage here.

    that's my personal view anyway.
    I allowed the viewing because I have no problem with the hose being sold. I don't mind and it's not really any of my business once the original lease is upheld or once I am given as much time as I need to find a new home.

    As I said I'm even willing to move on provided there is no pressure to do so because the freedom to walk away at any time gives me some negotiating power when it comes to new properties while still benefiting from the security of a lease.

    But 8 weeks notice is a non runner. Out by end of January? This has been going on since the start of October and my issue is there have been 0 properties to even look at in the area in that time. Any that have appeared are too far away from my mum (dad passed a few years ago so want to sty as close as possible) or too far away from the wifes work. I work from home so thankfully thats not an issue - though the disruption of a move will be.

    So from that point of view, even March is a risk. And god knows what costs will be incurred. I didn't do anything wrong here so I'd rather not be out of pocket (I will be regardless because It'll disrupt my work but I'll manage).


    Thats interesting about the repossessed bit. Have you any experience of it happening? Would we know if it was already repossessed?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    Escapees
    Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭Escapees


    My two cents are that you should put yourself in the 'landlord's' shoes and look at the situation from her point of view, not from a legal perspective. Life can be **** sometimes but it's hassle rather than a nightmare for you as compared to her situation. So park all the legal stuff to one side and do the right thing - it's clear that you knew to an extent what you were getting involved with from day 1 when negotiating rental terms etc. so this sort of thing was always a risk in the background, versus a more usual straight-forward rental agreement with an established landlord.


  • Options
    #13
    campingcarist
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭campingcarist


    You are going to have to move sooner or later, that is for sure. So why not start looking now for somewhere suitable before time gets too short. Rental properties are getting scarce so why leave it to the last minute. You may have the legal upper hand but you will have to move, that is for sure.

    You may well find that there are more properties going in the New Year; take advantage of them.


  • Options
    #14
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    8 weeks notice > Not as mad as you make out

    3. Notice periods

    Subject to the terms of the lease (tenancy) the notice period to terminate a tenant’s tenancy is determined by the duration of the tenancy as follows:

    (a) Less than 6 months 28 days notice

    (b) 6 or more months but less than 1 year 35 days notice

    (c) 1 year or more but less than 2 years 42 days notice

    (d) 2 years or more but less than 3 years 56 days notice

    - See more at: http://www.lawyer.ie/property/ending-your-tenancy#sthash.rAfVnlhC.dpuf


  • Options
    #15
    Ken79
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Ken79


    bjork wrote: »
    You want your rent to be nil til March because moving is expensive?
    Because she gave you an illegal eviction notice that you don't even know if it's illegal?


    Get proper advice

    She wants to buy me out of a lease.
    Even if it's a legal eviction I have nothing to lose by asking because gone is gone.

    But if I'm right, it'll cover the cost of moving, the likelihood of having to pay higher rent and the disruption to my work.

    And I have already received advice, as I stated. I'm just looking for something that may have been overlooked.


  • Options
    #16
    anto9
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭anto9


    >>Am I being unreasonable?<<

    Yes ,very much so .She has been far to easy on you .Hope she wises up ,and realizes she has a nasty selfish tenant to deal with .


  • Options
    #17
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,672 ✭✭✭whippet


    @OP .. what does your lease say about breaking clauses, i would be very surprised that even a fixed term tenancy does not have some reference to the ability of either side to terminate the lease for some reasons.

    The more you post the more unreasonable you sound .. it is clear that you are looking for as much free rent as possible and a deposit returned months before moving out .. and trying to railroad the landlord in to doing this.

    No body here can be sure as to the legality of the termination notice as we have not seen your lease; but you have made up about 4 different excuses for not wanting to move - these reasons will still be there when your 2 year lease expires so are not proper reasons.

    You admit to knowing about the situation since October but seem to have done very little to help your own situation - 4 months to find a place?

    As for the current property and rental market .. this is none of the LL problem or concern.


  • Options
    #18
    NewCorkLad
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭NewCorkLad


    So your landlords are stuck in a horrible situation and are being forced to sell the house. They have kept you fully up to date with everything, given you severly reduced rent to allow the viewings, the process has been going on for months, where you said you would look for alternative accommodation and they are giving you another 2 months notice now but instead you are demanding 4 months rent free because moving is expensive.

    Are you within your rights Ive no idea.

    Are you being unreasonable in my opinion definitly, they are the ones having a ****ty year and you just want to take them for every penny they are worth, after they have done everything they can to accommodate your demands.

    Merry Christmas


  • Options
    #19
    Ken79
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Ken79


    campingcarist wrote: »
    You are going to have to move sooner or later, that is for sure. So why not start looking now for somewhere suitable before time gets too short. Rental properties are getting scarce so why leave it to the last minute. You may have the legal upper hand but you will have to move, that is for sure.

    You may well find that there are more properties going in the New Year; take advantage of them.

    We have been. Thats why I set it at March because I thought it the most I could realistically ask them to hold out without endangering the sale while giving us at least a fighting chance of finding a home.

    They are rarer than hens teeth at the minute and we'll happily go in January if a suitable place came up. Next to a stable home, a months or two's free rent is nothing to me really.

    That being said, I'm going to extract a few bob from the situation as the lease she wants to buy me out of has a value - I just don't want to go overboard.


  • Options
    #20
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,672 ✭✭✭whippet


    Ken79 wrote: »

    And I have already received advice, as I stated. I'm just looking for something that may have been overlooked.


    Just be careful .. if it is threshold advising you .. recently there is evidence of threshold advising tenants to take illegal course of action. Personally I wouldn't take their advise.


  • Options
    #21
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,672 ✭✭✭whippet


    Ken79 wrote: »

    That being said, I'm going to extract a few bob from the situation

    // close thread


    The OP asked if they are being unreasonable.

    This sentence answers the OP's question.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    Ken79
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Ken79


    NewCorkLad wrote: »
    So your landlords are stuck in a horrible situation and are being forced to sell the house. They have kept you fully up to date with everything, given you severly reduced rent to allow the viewings, the process has been going on for months, where you said you would look for alternative accommodation and they are giving you another 2 months notice now but instead you are demanding 4 months rent free because moving is expensive.

    Are you within your rights Ive no idea.

    Are you being unreasonable in my opinion definitly, they are the ones having a ****ty year and you just want to take them for every penny they are worth, after they have done everything they can to accommodate your demands.

    Merry Christmas
    If they hadn't tried to give me a deadline they wouldn't have to deal with this at all.

    Yeah, it's horrible for them. It sucks for us too though and while I am wiling to move at no cost, it's the deadline they are paying for. You have to take the good with the bad when you sign a lease because tenants are entitled to a home too.


  • Options
    #23
    bjork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭bjork


    For a tenancy that has lasted between 6 months and 4 years – known as a Part 4 tenancy – the landlord can end it only in the following circumstances:

    After 3 years and 6 months
    If you do not comply with the obligations of the tenancy
    If the property is no longer suited to your needs (for example, if it is overcrowded)
    If the landlord intends to sell the property within 3 months

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html



    Please read


    BTW if you stop paying your rent the eviction can be 28 days


  • Options
    #24
    NewCorkLad
    Registered Users Posts: 957 ✭✭✭NewCorkLad


    Ken79 wrote: »
    If they hadn't tried to give me a deadline they wouldn't have to deal with this at all.

    Yeah, it's horrible for them. It sucks for us too though and while I am wiling to move at no cost, it's the deadline they are paying for. You have to take the good with the bad when you sign a lease because tenants are entitled to a home too.

    You have had 3 months without a deadline with which you did nothing, how much time do you expect from them?


  • Options
    #25
    Ken79
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭Ken79


    whippet wrote: »
    @OP .. what does your lease say about breaking clauses, i would be very surprised that even a fixed term tenancy does not have some reference to the ability of either side to terminate the lease for some reasons.

    The more you post the more unreasonable you sound .. it is clear that you are looking for as much free rent as possible and a deposit returned months before moving out .. and trying to railroad the landlord in to doing this.

    No body here can be sure as to the legality of the termination notice as we have not seen your lease; but you have made up about 4 different excuses for not wanting to move - these reasons will still be there when your 2 year lease expires so are not proper reasons.

    You admit to knowing about the situation since October but seem to have done very little to help your own situation - 4 months to find a place?

    As for the current property and rental market .. this is none of the LL problem or concern.
    No break clauses of any sort. Wouldn't have signed it if it did.

    As I say - since october there has been zero properties to even look at. It's scary.


  • Options
    #26
    salamanca22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭salamanca22


    whippet wrote: »
    // close thread


    The OP asked if they are being unreasonable.

    This sentence answers the OP's question.

    Why? They are in a great place to negotiate. The OP works from home so moving would cause loss of income. They can stay til the end of the lease if they wanted too and not be unreasonable. Giving the landlord a far better deal of leaving early with concessions towards the tenant is, in my own opinion a better deal for the landlord than living out the lease and potentially losing the sale.

    OP ignore the high horse brigade, look after number one and don't feel bad about your landlords situation because they have also put you in this terrible situation.

    Good luck with it.


  • Options
    #27
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    You have a fixed term lease, she cannot serve you notice of eviction. End of story. You do not need legal advice.

    If the bank want her to sell they can force her into liquidation, no one is being "forced" to do anything until that happens. One of the advantages of renting is not having to deal with the responsibilities of property ownership, she is forcing all the stress of that responsibility onto you. Ignore her.


  • Options
    #28
    drumswan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,592 ✭✭✭drumswan


    bjork wrote: »
    For a tenancy that has lasted between 6 months and 4 years – known as a Part 4 tenancy – the landlord can end it only in the following circumstances:

    After 3 years and 6 months
    If you do not comply with the obligations of the tenancy
    If the property is no longer suited to your needs (for example, if it is overcrowded)
    If the landlord intends to sell the property within 3 months

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html



    Please read


    BTW if you stop paying your rent the eviction can be 28 days

    You dont know what you are talking about.


  • Options
    #29
    Teyla Emmagan
    Registered Users Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    I don't know if your landlord is in the right or not, but I feel very sorry for them having to deal with you OP. You seem to be mostly interested in just lining your pockets.


  • Options
    #30
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    Ken79 wrote: »


    Thats interesting about the repossessed bit. Have you any experience of it happening? Would we know if it was already repossessed?

    No personal experience but if you search this forum you will find others that have.

    What I can tell you is that in that situation you have no tenancy rights so its worth bearing that min mind when your weighing up your options.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    seannash
    Registered Users Posts: 5,672 ✭✭✭seannash


    Ken79 wrote: »

    That being said, I'm going to extract a few bob from the situation as the lease she wants to buy me out of has a value - I just don't want to go overboard.
    Truth be told you sound like a bit of an opportunist. You say a month or two's rent is nothing to you yet you want to extract a few bob from the situation.
    Yes your being unreasonable. People work and look for places to live all the time, your situation isn't unique. I honestly think you wouldn't care if the sale of the house fell through.
    Can you imagine the landlord is finally nearly at the end of a horrendous 2 years and it might all collapse because your being an arsehole.
    What would you do when the lease is up and you cant find a suitable place to move to then. whatever you would do in that situation apply it now and tip on.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement