Time off for funeral

Whiplashy · 14-12-2014 3:22am #1

My uncle died a couple of months ago and my manager said I had to use annual leave to attend the funeral. My grandmother is very sick at the moment and we're not expecting her to last much longer. I have no annual leave left for this year. If she were to pass before the end of the year, and the funeral was a work day, where would I stand? I know it's a bit morbid, but I'd just like to know where I stand. I'd have no problem taking the day unpaid but my company doesn't usually allow this. Could they legally refuse me the day off?

braddun · 14-12-2014 3:24am

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/types_of_leave_from_work.html

Whiplashy · 14-12-2014 3:54am

So basically yes they can refuse the time off? That's pretty harsh.

BreadnBuddha · 14-12-2014 4:09am

OP, speak with your manager. Let them know and give them a chance to be supportive. Explain the situation and tell them you'll work up the time if they can facilitate your request, given that you're aware the day may come sooner than anyone would wish for a loved ones passing.

Whiplashy · 14-12-2014 12:02pm

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

OP, speak with your manager. Let them know and give them a chance to be supportive. Explain the situation and tell them you'll work up the time if they can facilitate your request, given that you're aware the day may come sooner than anyone would wish for a loved ones passing.

Unfortunately for me to be off someone has to do overtime to replace me. We're banned from booking annual leave the last 2 weeks in December and first 2 weeks of January due to this. No one is likely to want to cover me at this time of year, which is why I wanted to know if they are obliged to give me the time off.

davo10 · 14-12-2014 2:08pm

Whiplashy wrote: »

I wanted to know if they are obliged to give me the time off.

Unfortunately they are not legally obliged to give you time off though morally it would be outrageous for them not to for a grandparent's funeral. I wouldn't go in shouting about your rights because there aren't any, this also does not qualify as force majuere as a grandparent is not considered immediate family and your attendance at the funeral, though emotionally important to you, is not considered essential.

Your best bet is to let them know now that your grandparent is very ill and likely to pass away in the coming days, allow them to make arrangements for your absence in advance.

Whiplashy · 14-12-2014 2:16pm

I don't usually agree with doing this but I think I might be better off not mentioning it and pulling a sickie if it does happen over the Christmas period. We only have to produce a cert after 3 days so I could get a migraine or a 24 hour stomach bug.

davo10 · 14-12-2014 2:42pm

Whiplashy wrote: »

I don't usually agree with doing this but I think I might be better off not mentioning it and pulling a sickie if it does happen over the Christmas period. We only have to produce a cert after 3 days so I could get a migraine or a 24 hour stomach bug.

And you have now advertised what you are planning to do on the internet. You will have to consider the potential consequences of being found to have lied. And that is leaving aside the gross unfairness of not allowing your employer the opportunity to get cover while you are off. If they find you lied, expect a P45.

Your employer was perfectly right to insist that the time taken off for your Uncles funeral was taken as annual leave, this is the norm. If you haven't told them about your grandmother, you may be underestimating the compassion they may show for your situation. But be under no illusion, if you have no annual leave to take, you will not be paid for any time off for the funeral.

Have you considered asking a colleague to cover for you if you have to take a day off?

Whiplashy · 14-12-2014 2:54pm

davo10 wrote: »

And you have now advertised what you are planning to do on the internet. You will have to consider the potential consequences of being found to have lied. And that is leaving aside the gross unfairness of not allowing your employer the opportunity to get cover while you are off. If they find you lied, expect a P45.

I get that. But if they refuse me the day off, I'll take it anyway, and then it's P45 time aswel. I've been with the company nearly 3 years. I've never pulled a sickie. But they're not the most compassionate people, and although I don't want to put my colleagues out over the Christmas period, I'm trying to figure out which action is less likely to get me fired. A few months ago a colleague in one of our other offices was fired for not turning up after being refused leave. Again it was for one day, but we weren't told the reason she needed it off.

davo10 · 14-12-2014 3:03pm

Whiplashy wrote: »

I get that. But if they refuse me the day off, I'll take it anyway, and then it's P45 time aswel. I've been with the company nearly 3 years. I've never pulled a sickie. But they're not the most compassionate people, and although I don't want to put my colleagues out over the Christmas period, I'm trying to figure out which action is less likely to get me fired. A few months ago a colleague in one of our other offices was fired for not turning up after being refused leave. Again it was for one day, but we weren't told the reason she needed it off.

The less action likely to get you fired is to ask a colleague. You asked if they were "obliged" to give you the day off, they are not. If they fired someone else for doing the same thing, well you know the risk you run by doing it. You shouldn't assume they will not understand, nor should you assume they will not find out.
If you have mentioned it to someone else in the office, these things have a way of coming out, particularly if someone else has to be called in because you didn't give your manager the opportunity to make arrangements in advance.

Just say it to them, your manager will understand that grand parents are important to us all. Jobs are not that easy to find, especially if you are sacked and have no reference.

Whiplashy · 14-12-2014 3:14pm

davo10 wrote: »

The less action likely to get you fired is to ask a colleague. You asked if they were "obliged" to give you the day off, they are not. If they fired someone else for doing the same thing, well you know the risk you run by doing it. You shouldn't assume they will not understand, nor should you assume they will not find out.
If you have mentioned it to someone else in the office, these things have a way of coming out, particularly if someone else has to be called in because you didn't give your manager the opportunity to make arrangements in advance.

Just say it to them, your manager will understand that grand parents are important to us all. Jobs are not that easy to find, especially if you are sacked and have no reference.

To swap a day with a colleague would be my first choice. There are only 3 of us in our office. 1 is off on maternity leave and the other will not swap days. She'll only agree to change her days if she's getting overtime. She'd have no problem covering for me if I they gave me the day off without pay, or I called in sick, because she'll get overtime. If she's not getting a financial benefit she doesn't want to .

Tramps Like Us · 14-12-2014 3:20pm

A relative being very ill and dying is a very stressful time for anyone.... see a GP and they will give you a cert. Had to do it myself once unfortunately when I worked for a prick.

davo10 · 14-12-2014 3:26pm

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

A relative being very ill and dying is a very stressful time for anyone.... see a GP and they will give you a cert. Had to do it myself once unfortunately when I worked for a prick.

Out with stress for one day, in advance? I would imagine that would be an interesting conversation with the GP. OP would have to pay for the GP plus receive no pay for the time off which for it to look bone fide, would have to be for longer than one day.

If the OP were to follow your advice and pay a GP, maybe she should consider giving the GP fee equivalent to her colleague to cover for her in lieu of overtime payment which her employer is refusing to pay.

Whiplashy · 14-12-2014 3:39pm

davo10 wrote: »

Out with stress for one day, in advance? I would imagine that would be an interesting conversation with the GP. OP would have to pay for the GP plus receive no pay for the time off which for it to look bone fide, would have to be for longer than one day.

If the OP were to follow your advice and pay a GP, maybe she should consider giving the GP fee equivalent to her colleague to cover for her in lieu of overtime payment which her employer is refusing to pay.

If I take the day off as sick leave I will get paid for it, which is why I don't pull sickies. Considering how strict they are in other areas, there sick leave policy is very fair. I have a long term illness that my manager is aware of and could very easily get a cert from my GP. I just don't agree with lying to get a cert. They wouldn't expect a cert for 1 day anyway. It'd look even more suspicious.

davo10 · 14-12-2014 3:45pm

Whiplashy wrote: »

If I take the day off as sick leave I will get paid for it, which is why I don't pull sickies. Considering how strict they are in other areas, there sick leave policy is very fair. I have a long term illness that my manager is aware of and could very easily get a cert from my GP. I just don't agree with lying to get a cert. They wouldn't expect a cert for 1 day anyway. It'd look even more suspicious.

You are missing the underlying fact, you will be lying, your colleague will be put under pressure to come in at short notice and if you are caught, you will be fired like the other person. I agree it is wrong to not give you time off but two wrongs don't make a right, it's your risk. I think you should give your colleague a few quid to cover for you.

You don't agree with lying to get a cert but are intending to lie to get the day off?

I really can't imagine any business not allowing someone time off to attend a grantparent's funeral. I think you should ask your colleague first, offer to pay her the equivalent of her overtime in case you are refused, and then inform your employer of the situation.

Del2005 · 14-12-2014 3:53pm

Is your Granny close to your work? Taking a few hours instead of the whole day might be a compromise if you can't get cover .

Whiplashy · 14-12-2014 3:59pm

Del2005 wrote: »

Is your Granny close to your work? Taking a few hours instead of the whole day might be a compromise if you can't get cover .

That would be an option that I'd be more than willing to agree to, but again they'd still need cover for me while I was gone as there'd be no one in the office. I'll speak to my colleague tomorrow and see would she be willing to cover if I were to pay her, but I'm pretty sure our insurance wouldn't cover her as she wouldn't be officially on the pay roll for the day.

I get what everyone is saying about lying and not given my manager a chance to see what she'd say. I'm just worried that she'll refuse and then I'll definitely be fired, because there's no way I'd miss the funeral.

davo10 · 14-12-2014 4:03pm

The dynamic and relationships in a small office can be effected in cases like this. One person lies to get a day off, the manager is annoyed because he/she is short staffed, other staff are pressurised to work against their will, the manager gets more annoyed if they won't and the other staff get annoyed with the colleague who lied because they are effected by the boss being annoyed with them. The truth comes out and the liar gets a P45.

davo10 · 14-12-2014 4:05pm

Whiplashy wrote: »

That would be an option that I'd be more than willing to agree to, but again they'd still need cover for me while I was gone as there'd be no one in the office. I'll speak to my colleague tomorrow and see would she be willing to cover if I were to pay her, but I'm pretty sure our insurance wouldn't cover her as she wouldn't be officially on the pay roll for the day.

I get what everyone is saying about lying and not given my manager a chance to see what she'd say. I'm just worried that she'll refuse and then I'll definitely be fired, because there's no way I'd miss the funeral.

She would be on the payroll, you would not be, you pay her the overtime she wants and she gets to take a days holiday another time. Your employer won't mind as long as there is someone in the office and they don't have to pay overtime because you want a day off.

michael999999 · 14-12-2014 4:06pm

davo10 wrote: »

And you have now advertised what you are planning to do on the internet. You will have to consider the potential consequences of being found to have lied. And that is leaving aside the gross unfairness of not allowing your employer the opportunity to get cover while you are off. If they find you lied, expect a P45.

Your employer was perfectly right to insist that the time taken off for your Uncles funeral was taken as annual leave, this is the norm. If you haven't told them about your grandmother, you may be underestimating the compassion they may show for your situation. But be under no illusion, if you have no annual leave to take, you will not be paid for any time off for the funeral.

Have you considered asking a colleague to cover for you if you have to take a day off?

I'm sure he doesn't call himself Whiplashy at work!

davo10 · 14-12-2014 4:13pm

michael999999 wrote: »

I'm sure he doesn't call himself Whiplashy at work!

I suppose it depends on what type of business it is, but social media being as popular as it is, the details placed on here by the OP may be recognisable to colleagues/employers. Small office, number of workers, colleague fired, time off for uncles funeral, sick grandmother, colleague not willing to work unless paid overtime, sick leave paid by employer, long term illness, all leave taken, OP calling in sick on day of funeral (which may become known about later) etc

Whiplashy · 14-12-2014 4:17pm

davo10 wrote: »

she gets to take a days holiday another time. Your employer won't mind as long as there is someone in the office and they don't have to pay overtime because you want a day off.

I can see my manager having an issue with that. If my colleague gets to take another day off instead then overtime will have to be paid to cover her. There really anal about overtime. Management usually try and cover our holidays themselves.

I might try and see if they'd allow me to take 1 of next years days early. Our leave year runs Jan to Dec so it'd only be a little bit early. Do companies usually allow this?

davo10 · 14-12-2014 4:22pm

Whiplashy wrote: »

I can see my manager having an issue with that. If my colleague gets to take another day off instead then overtime will have to be paid to cover her. There really anal about overtime. Management usually try and cover our holidays themselves.

I might try and see if they'd allow me to take 1 of next years days early. Our leave year runs Jan to Dec so it'd only be a little bit early. Do companies usually allow this?

I might be missing something but I don't get the sense that annual leave is the issue, is it not the fact that there needs to be someone in the office?

Whiplashy · 14-12-2014 4:24pm

davo10 wrote: »

I might be missing something but I don't get the sense that annual leave is the issue, is it not the fact that there needs to be someone in the office?

Yeah that's the main issue, but they have to provide cover for annual leave anyway, so it's no extra expense for them in the long term if they provide cover for one day now and a day less next year.

davo10 · 14-12-2014 4:26pm

Whiplashy wrote: »

I can see my manager having an issue with that. If my colleague gets to take another day off instead then overtime will have to be paid to cover her. ?

You mean for every day taken by each employee, your employer has to pay the other 2 overtime even if you or someone else is working there at that time? Are you sure about this? That would be a brilliant perk for everyone in the office as there would be a minimum 60 days overtime to be shared assuming everyone works a full week. Id have to say I have never heard of other employees being paid overtime every time someone else is on holiday unless they were having to cover hours above what they are contracted to work.

Whiplashy · 14-12-2014 4:42pm

davo10 wrote: »

You mean for every day taken by each employee, your employer has to pay the other 2 overtime even if you or someone else is working there at that time? Are you sure about this? That would be a brilliant perk for everyone in the office as there would be a minimum 60 days overtime to be shared assuming everyone works a full week. Id have to say I have never heard of other employees being paid overtime every time someone else is on holiday unless they were having to cover hours above what they are contracted to work.

That's pretty much the issue! We operate 365 days a year. There's normally 3 of us so we would overlap and overtime wouldn't always be necessary. Now we're down to 2 due to maternity leave. At the moment there is only ever 1 in the office at a time so that we can cover the maternity leave without getting someone else in. So for the time being, every instance of 1 of us being off leads to overtime.

davo10 · 14-12-2014 4:48pm

Whiplashy wrote: »

That's pretty much the issue! We operate 365 days a year. There's normally 3 of us so we would overlap and overtime wouldn't always be necessary. Now we're down to 2 due to maternity leave. At the moment there is only ever 1 in the office at a time so that we can cover the maternity leave without getting someone else in. So for the time being, every instance of 1 of us being off leads to overtime.

In that case it is extremely poor planning by your employer, they deserve whatever problems they get. But OP, I still think it is in your best interest to inform them of the pending death. All you will be doing by lying is exposing yourself to being fired.

professore · 14-12-2014 4:51pm

Can they not just hire a 3rd person to cover the maternity? Would solve a lot of problems. Sounds like a shambolic organisation tbh. Also theres only 2 of you and you still need a manager?

davo10 · 14-12-2014 4:52pm

professore wrote: »

Can they not just hire a 3rd person to cover the maternity? Would solve a lot of problems. Sounds like a shambolic organisation tbh.

Sounds like the HSE.

professore · 14-12-2014 4:54pm

What happens if one of you is hit by a bus and ends up in hospital for a month?

Whiplashy · 14-12-2014 5:02pm

professore wrote: »

What happens if one of you is hit by a bus and ends up in hospital for a month?

So far nothing that extreme has happened but we have been down to 1 before!

Why would any organisation pay someone to cover the maternity leave when they can get it covered for free by the rest of the staff?!

I might just inform my manager tomorrow that it may be an issue in the near future. If she won't allow me to take the day off, I'll take it anyway, and hope due to the fact that they can't really function with only 1 staff member left, I might get away with a written warning.

Time off for funeral

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