Time off for funeral

Whiplashy

My uncle died a couple of months ago and my manager said I had to use annual leave to attend the funeral. My grandmother is very sick at the moment and we're not expecting her to last much longer. I have no annual leave left for this year. If she were to pass before the end of the year, and the funeral was a work day, where would I stand? I know it's a bit morbid, but I'd just like to know where I stand. I'd have no problem taking the day unpaid but my company doesn't usually allow this. Could they legally refuse me the day off?

braddun

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/types_of_leave_from_work.html

Whiplashy

So basically yes they can refuse the time off? That's pretty harsh.

BreadnBuddha

OP, speak with your manager. Let them know and give them a chance to be supportive. Explain the situation and tell them you'll work up the time if they can facilitate your request, given that you're aware the day may come sooner than anyone would wish for a loved ones passing.

Whiplashy

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

OP, speak with your manager. Let them know and give them a chance to be supportive. Explain the situation and tell them you'll work up the time if they can facilitate your request, given that you're aware the day may come sooner than anyone would wish for a loved ones passing.

Unfortunately for me to be off someone has to do overtime to replace me. We're banned from booking annual leave the last 2 weeks in December and first 2 weeks of January due to this. No one is likely to want to cover me at this time of year, which is why I wanted to know if they are obliged to give me the time off.

davo10

Whiplashy wrote: »

I wanted to know if they are obliged to give me the time off.

Unfortunately they are not legally obliged to give you time off though morally it would be outrageous for them not to for a grandparent's funeral. I wouldn't go in shouting about your rights because there aren't any, this also does not qualify as force majuere as a grandparent is not considered immediate family and your attendance at the funeral, though emotionally important to you, is not considered essential.

Your best bet is to let them know now that your grandparent is very ill and likely to pass away in the coming days, allow them to make arrangements for your absence in advance.

Whiplashy

I don't usually agree with doing this but I think I might be better off not mentioning it and pulling a sickie if it does happen over the Christmas period. We only have to produce a cert after 3 days so I could get a migraine or a 24 hour stomach bug.

davo10

Whiplashy wrote: »

I don't usually agree with doing this but I think I might be better off not mentioning it and pulling a sickie if it does happen over the Christmas period. We only have to produce a cert after 3 days so I could get a migraine or a 24 hour stomach bug.

And you have now advertised what you are planning to do on the internet. You will have to consider the potential consequences of being found to have lied. And that is leaving aside the gross unfairness of not allowing your employer the opportunity to get cover while you are off. If they find you lied, expect a P45.

Your employer was perfectly right to insist that the time taken off for your Uncles funeral was taken as annual leave, this is the norm. If you haven't told them about your grandmother, you may be underestimating the compassion they may show for your situation. But be under no illusion, if you have no annual leave to take, you will not be paid for any time off for the funeral.

Have you considered asking a colleague to cover for you if you have to take a day off?

Whiplashy

davo10 wrote: »

And you have now advertised what you are planning to do on the internet. You will have to consider the potential consequences of being found to have lied. And that is leaving aside the gross unfairness of not allowing your employer the opportunity to get cover while you are off. If they find you lied, expect a P45.

I get that. But if they refuse me the day off, I'll take it anyway, and then it's P45 time aswel. I've been with the company nearly 3 years. I've never pulled a sickie. But they're not the most compassionate people, and although I don't want to put my colleagues out over the Christmas period, I'm trying to figure out which action is less likely to get me fired. A few months ago a colleague in one of our other offices was fired for not turning up after being refused leave. Again it was for one day, but we weren't told the reason she needed it off.

davo10

Whiplashy wrote: »

I get that. But if they refuse me the day off, I'll take it anyway, and then it's P45 time aswel. I've been with the company nearly 3 years. I've never pulled a sickie. But they're not the most compassionate people, and although I don't want to put my colleagues out over the Christmas period, I'm trying to figure out which action is less likely to get me fired. A few months ago a colleague in one of our other offices was fired for not turning up after being refused leave. Again it was for one day, but we weren't told the reason she needed it off.

The less action likely to get you fired is to ask a colleague. You asked if they were "obliged" to give you the day off, they are not. If they fired someone else for doing the same thing, well you know the risk you run by doing it. You shouldn't assume they will not understand, nor should you assume they will not find out.
If you have mentioned it to someone else in the office, these things have a way of coming out, particularly if someone else has to be called in because you didn't give your manager the opportunity to make arrangements in advance.

Just say it to them, your manager will understand that grand parents are important to us all. Jobs are not that easy to find, especially if you are sacked and have no reference.

Whiplashy

davo10 wrote: »

The less action likely to get you fired is to ask a colleague. You asked if they were "obliged" to give you the day off, they are not. If they fired someone else for doing the same thing, well you know the risk you run by doing it. You shouldn't assume they will not understand, nor should you assume they will not find out.
If you have mentioned it to someone else in the office, these things have a way of coming out, particularly if someone else has to be called in because you didn't give your manager the opportunity to make arrangements in advance.

Just say it to them, your manager will understand that grand parents are important to us all. Jobs are not that easy to find, especially if you are sacked and have no reference.

To swap a day with a colleague would be my first choice. There are only 3 of us in our office. 1 is off on maternity leave and the other will not swap days. She'll only agree to change her days if she's getting overtime. She'd have no problem covering for me if I they gave me the day off without pay, or I called in sick, because she'll get overtime. If she's not getting a financial benefit she doesn't want to .

Tramps Like Us

A relative being very ill and dying is a very stressful time for anyone.... see a GP and they will give you a cert. Had to do it myself once unfortunately when I worked for a prick.

davo10

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

A relative being very ill and dying is a very stressful time for anyone.... see a GP and they will give you a cert. Had to do it myself once unfortunately when I worked for a prick.

Out with stress for one day, in advance? I would imagine that would be an interesting conversation with the GP. OP would have to pay for the GP plus receive no pay for the time off which for it to look bone fide, would have to be for longer than one day.

If the OP were to follow your advice and pay a GP, maybe she should consider giving the GP fee equivalent to her colleague to cover for her in lieu of overtime payment which her employer is refusing to pay.

Whiplashy

davo10 wrote: »

Out with stress for one day, in advance? I would imagine that would be an interesting conversation with the GP. OP would have to pay for the GP plus receive no pay for the time off which for it to look bone fide, would have to be for longer than one day.

If the OP were to follow your advice and pay a GP, maybe she should consider giving the GP fee equivalent to her colleague to cover for her in lieu of overtime payment which her employer is refusing to pay.

If I take the day off as sick leave I will get paid for it, which is why I don't pull sickies. Considering how strict they are in other areas, there sick leave policy is very fair. I have a long term illness that my manager is aware of and could very easily get a cert from my GP. I just don't agree with lying to get a cert. They wouldn't expect a cert for 1 day anyway. It'd look even more suspicious.

davo10

Whiplashy wrote: »

If I take the day off as sick leave I will get paid for it, which is why I don't pull sickies. Considering how strict they are in other areas, there sick leave policy is very fair. I have a long term illness that my manager is aware of and could very easily get a cert from my GP. I just don't agree with lying to get a cert. They wouldn't expect a cert for 1 day anyway. It'd look even more suspicious.

You are missing the underlying fact, you will be lying, your colleague will be put under pressure to come in at short notice and if you are caught, you will be fired like the other person. I agree it is wrong to not give you time off but two wrongs don't make a right, it's your risk. I think you should give your colleague a few quid to cover for you.

You don't agree with lying to get a cert but are intending to lie to get the day off?

I really can't imagine any business not allowing someone time off to attend a grantparent's funeral. I think you should ask your colleague first, offer to pay her the equivalent of her overtime in case you are refused, and then inform your employer of the situation.

Del2005

Is your Granny close to your work? Taking a few hours instead of the whole day might be a compromise if you can't get cover .

Whiplashy

Del2005 wrote: »

Is your Granny close to your work? Taking a few hours instead of the whole day might be a compromise if you can't get cover .

That would be an option that I'd be more than willing to agree to, but again they'd still need cover for me while I was gone as there'd be no one in the office. I'll speak to my colleague tomorrow and see would she be willing to cover if I were to pay her, but I'm pretty sure our insurance wouldn't cover her as she wouldn't be officially on the pay roll for the day.

I get what everyone is saying about lying and not given my manager a chance to see what she'd say. I'm just worried that she'll refuse and then I'll definitely be fired, because there's no way I'd miss the funeral.

davo10

The dynamic and relationships in a small office can be effected in cases like this. One person lies to get a day off, the manager is annoyed because he/she is short staffed, other staff are pressurised to work against their will, the manager gets more annoyed if they won't and the other staff get annoyed with the colleague who lied because they are effected by the boss being annoyed with them. The truth comes out and the liar gets a P45.

davo10

Whiplashy wrote: »

That would be an option that I'd be more than willing to agree to, but again they'd still need cover for me while I was gone as there'd be no one in the office. I'll speak to my colleague tomorrow and see would she be willing to cover if I were to pay her, but I'm pretty sure our insurance wouldn't cover her as she wouldn't be officially on the pay roll for the day.

I get what everyone is saying about lying and not given my manager a chance to see what she'd say. I'm just worried that she'll refuse and then I'll definitely be fired, because there's no way I'd miss the funeral.

She would be on the payroll, you would not be, you pay her the overtime she wants and she gets to take a days holiday another time. Your employer won't mind as long as there is someone in the office and they don't have to pay overtime because you want a day off.

michael999999

davo10 wrote: »

And you have now advertised what you are planning to do on the internet. You will have to consider the potential consequences of being found to have lied. And that is leaving aside the gross unfairness of not allowing your employer the opportunity to get cover while you are off. If they find you lied, expect a P45.

Your employer was perfectly right to insist that the time taken off for your Uncles funeral was taken as annual leave, this is the norm. If you haven't told them about your grandmother, you may be underestimating the compassion they may show for your situation. But be under no illusion, if you have no annual leave to take, you will not be paid for any time off for the funeral.

Have you considered asking a colleague to cover for you if you have to take a day off?

I'm sure he doesn't call himself Whiplashy at work!

davo10

michael999999 wrote: »

I'm sure he doesn't call himself Whiplashy at work!

I suppose it depends on what type of business it is, but social media being as popular as it is, the details placed on here by the OP may be recognisable to colleagues/employers. Small office, number of workers, colleague fired, time off for uncles funeral, sick grandmother, colleague not willing to work unless paid overtime, sick leave paid by employer, long term illness, all leave taken, OP calling in sick on day of funeral (which may become known about later) etc

Whiplashy

davo10 wrote: »

she gets to take a days holiday another time. Your employer won't mind as long as there is someone in the office and they don't have to pay overtime because you want a day off.

I can see my manager having an issue with that. If my colleague gets to take another day off instead then overtime will have to be paid to cover her. There really anal about overtime. Management usually try and cover our holidays themselves.

I might try and see if they'd allow me to take 1 of next years days early. Our leave year runs Jan to Dec so it'd only be a little bit early. Do companies usually allow this?

davo10

Whiplashy wrote: »

I can see my manager having an issue with that. If my colleague gets to take another day off instead then overtime will have to be paid to cover her. There really anal about overtime. Management usually try and cover our holidays themselves.

I might try and see if they'd allow me to take 1 of next years days early. Our leave year runs Jan to Dec so it'd only be a little bit early. Do companies usually allow this?

I might be missing something but I don't get the sense that annual leave is the issue, is it not the fact that there needs to be someone in the office?

Whiplashy

davo10 wrote: »

I might be missing something but I don't get the sense that annual leave is the issue, is it not the fact that there needs to be someone in the office?

Yeah that's the main issue, but they have to provide cover for annual leave anyway, so it's no extra expense for them in the long term if they provide cover for one day now and a day less next year.

davo10

Whiplashy wrote: »

I can see my manager having an issue with that. If my colleague gets to take another day off instead then overtime will have to be paid to cover her. ?

You mean for every day taken by each employee, your employer has to pay the other 2 overtime even if you or someone else is working there at that time? Are you sure about this? That would be a brilliant perk for everyone in the office as there would be a minimum 60 days overtime to be shared assuming everyone works a full week. Id have to say I have never heard of other employees being paid overtime every time someone else is on holiday unless they were having to cover hours above what they are contracted to work.

Whiplashy

davo10 wrote: »

You mean for every day taken by each employee, your employer has to pay the other 2 overtime even if you or someone else is working there at that time? Are you sure about this? That would be a brilliant perk for everyone in the office as there would be a minimum 60 days overtime to be shared assuming everyone works a full week. Id have to say I have never heard of other employees being paid overtime every time someone else is on holiday unless they were having to cover hours above what they are contracted to work.

That's pretty much the issue! We operate 365 days a year. There's normally 3 of us so we would overlap and overtime wouldn't always be necessary. Now we're down to 2 due to maternity leave. At the moment there is only ever 1 in the office at a time so that we can cover the maternity leave without getting someone else in. So for the time being, every instance of 1 of us being off leads to overtime.

davo10

Whiplashy wrote: »

That's pretty much the issue! We operate 365 days a year. There's normally 3 of us so we would overlap and overtime wouldn't always be necessary. Now we're down to 2 due to maternity leave. At the moment there is only ever 1 in the office at a time so that we can cover the maternity leave without getting someone else in. So for the time being, every instance of 1 of us being off leads to overtime.

In that case it is extremely poor planning by your employer, they deserve whatever problems they get. But OP, I still think it is in your best interest to inform them of the pending death. All you will be doing by lying is exposing yourself to being fired.

professore

Can they not just hire a 3rd person to cover the maternity? Would solve a lot of problems. Sounds like a shambolic organisation tbh. Also theres only 2 of you and you still need a manager?

davo10

professore wrote: »

Can they not just hire a 3rd person to cover the maternity? Would solve a lot of problems. Sounds like a shambolic organisation tbh.

Sounds like the HSE.

professore

What happens if one of you is hit by a bus and ends up in hospital for a month?

Whiplashy

professore wrote: »

What happens if one of you is hit by a bus and ends up in hospital for a month?

So far nothing that extreme has happened but we have been down to 1 before!

Why would any organisation pay someone to cover the maternity leave when they can get it covered for free by the rest of the staff?!

I might just inform my manager tomorrow that it may be an issue in the near future. If she won't allow me to take the day off, I'll take it anyway, and hope due to the fact that they can't really function with only 1 staff member left, I might get away with a written warning.

Kristopherus

davo10 wrote: »

Sounds like the HSE.

At least in the HSE there. is a written policy re time off for a funeral.

OP, how come ye work on Christmas day?

Whiplashy

Kristopherus wrote: »

At least in the HSE there. is a written policy re time off for a funeral.

OP, how come ye work on Christmas day?

I really can't answer that without giving away who I work for! There's not too many organisations working Christmas Day!

Kristopherus

Whiplashy wrote: »

I really can't answer that without giving away who I work for! There's not too many organisations working Christmas Day!

Well is it a public or private organisation?

Whiplashy

Kristopherus wrote: »

Well is it a public or private organisation?

It's a private organisation. We benefit on sick leave, but as pointed out earlier, even the incompetent HSE have a policy in place for compassionate leave!

Kristopherus

Whiplashy wrote: »

It's a private organisation. We benefit on sick leave, but as pointed out earlier, even the incompetent HSE have a policy in place for compassionate leave!

Ah, now:(. No need to cast aspersions. I'm only trying to determine if there was any hope of finding a loophole to free you for the day. Hope Granny holds out till Feb at least.

Whiplashy

Kristopherus wrote: »

Ah, now:(. No need to cast aspersions. I'm only trying to determine if there was any hope of finding a loophole to free you for the day. Hope Granny holds out till Feb at least.

Does my critisim of the HSE cause offence? Sorry! From a selfish point of view I'm really hoping she'll hang on a bit longer, but I know she's ready, which is why I'm expecting it to be very soon. People don't tend to last too long once they've given up the fight.

Galadriel

Kristopherus wrote: »

At least in the HSE there. is a written policy re time off for a funeral.

OP, how come ye work on Christmas day?

I work for the HSE and was not entitled to a day off for my Grandmothers funeral, I took a day's annual leave.

Kristopherus

Galadriel wrote: »

I work for the HSE and was not entitled to a day off for my Grandmothers funeral, I took a day's annual leave.

You must have joined in recent years after [they] <<abuse mod-snipped>> changed the rules.





MOD-NOTE: People who work in HR are employees like the rest of us, doing their job. You may not like what they do, but there's no call for abusing them.

Mrs OBumble

davo10 wrote: »

I really can't imagine any business not allowing someone time off to attend a grantparent's funeral.

I certainly can.

An Irish owned and operated business, no.

But a multi-national, absolutely. Many cultures aren't nearly so emotional about deaths as the Irish are, and take firmer points of view about what is and isn't reasonable. And the fact that here funerals happen as soon as possible means that employers get less notice and thus time to arrange cover.

OP, it's a very hard one to call. Only you can really judge whether to tell them or not. As others have said, you have no entitlement. But don't be too hung up by the "no unpaid leave" rule: if you manager wants, they can either bend the rule, or allow you to anticipate a day from next year, or they can possibly choose to grant you a day's paid extra leave even though it's not an entitlement.

I feel for you: many years ago, I was in a new job for less than two weeks when I got the phone call to say my mother was dying, and it could be anything between a couple of hours and a couple of weeks. Wasn't easy saying to a new manager "I have to go, no idea how long for".

Hope the next few days / weeks go as well as they can for you and your family.

Whiplashy

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I certainly can.

An Irish owned and operated business, no.

But a multi-national, absolutely. Many cultures aren't nearly so emotional about deaths as the Irish are, and take firmer points of view about what is and isn't reasonable. And the fact that here funerals happen as soon as possible means that employers get less notice and thus time to arrange cover.

OP, it's a very hard one to call. Only you can really judge whether to tell them or not. As others have said, you have no entitlement. But don't be too hung up by the "no unpaid leave" rule: if you manager wants, they can either bend the rule, or allow you to anticipate a day from next year, or they can possibly choose to grant you a day's paid extra leave even though it's not an entitlement.

I feel for you: many years ago, I was in a new job for less than two weeks when I got the phone call to say my mother was dying, and it could be anything between a couple of hours and a couple of weeks. Wasn't easy saying to a new manager "I have to go, no idea how long for".

Hope the next few days / weeks go as well as they can for you and your family.

Thanks

Most people don't get how different it is to work for a multi-national. It's the first time I've worked for one, and even though I've come to expect their attitude to be a whole lot different, they still manage to surprise me. They can be very generous but at the same time they tend to have absolutely no consideration for personal situations. We're not robots!

Kristopherus

Kristopherus wrote: »

You must have joined in recent years after [they] <<abuse mod-snipped>> changed the rules.





MOD-NOTE: People who work in HR are employees like the rest of us, doing their job. You may not like what they do, but there's no call for abusing them.

Point taken, but when the minions in National HR changed the rules without any consultation and omitted grandparents and in-laws that were included in the earlier policy, then you could'nt call them nice boys & girls .

Aber2012

I think your best of option here is as stated previously pop out for the funeral/burial for two hours max. If there is going to be a removal/wake you'll be there the night before and the night of the funeral. I know it's your grandmother... But would your family rather see you unemployed and attend a funeral? If they still say no to the popping out for the funeral situation.... Bite your tongue, go with it or else if they are that strict they could turf you out, it's awful situation to be in. What kind of lunch break do you get? Most funerals start at 11 am you could get there in time for the burial?
I've never been in this situation myself but I do find it heartless that your boss wouldn't have some sort of compassion for you. Bring the situation up straight away, and be honest and discuss your options in a logical manner

Whiplashy

Aber2012 wrote: »

I think your best of option here is as stated previously pop out for the funeral/burial for two hours max. If there is going to be a removal/wake you'll be there the night before and the night of the funeral. I know it's your grandmother... But would your family rather see you unemployed and attend a funeral? If they still say no to the popping out for the funeral situation.... Bite your tongue, go with it or else if they are that strict they could turf you out, it's awful situation to be in. What kind of lunch break do you get? Most funerals start at 11 am you could get there in time for the burial?
I've never been in this situation myself but I do find it heartless that your boss wouldn't have some sort of compassion for you. Bring the situation up straight away, and be honest and discuss your options in a logical manner

Officially we get 30 mins for lunch. Unofficially it's frowned upon not to be working while you eat!

Kalman

Whiplashy wrote: »

My uncle died a couple of months ago and my manager said I had to use annual leave to attend the funeral. My grandmother is very sick at the moment and we're not expecting her to last much longer. I have no annual leave left for this year. If she were to pass before the end of the year, and the funeral was a work day, where would I stand? I know it's a bit morbid, but I'd just like to know where I stand. I'd have no problem taking the day unpaid but my company doesn't usually allow this. Could they legally refuse me the day off?

Could they legally refuse me the day off? Short answer>> 'Yes!' However, they would have to be hard-hearted to refuse.

Aber2012

Whiplashy wrote: »

Officially we get 30 mins for lunch. Unofficially it's frowned upon not to be working while you eat!

Ok, I hear ya, I work in a place with a similar culture - lunch time wise, and it is easy for others to say oh you're entitled to this, that and the other, it's not going to go down well where you are. Are you rostered for working weekends?if not then y If the unmentionable happens... For instance if your grandparent was to pass away say on a Wednesday, would they consider postponing the funeral for a day so that you could attend on a weeknd, Equally funerals don't generally follow the usual sequence like they used to years ago- person passes away say Monday, wake Tuesday, burial Wednesday, these days people have to travel to get home etc... I'm really clutching at straws here but ya never know

Whiplashy

Aber2012 wrote: »

Ok, I hear ya, I work in a place with a similar culture - lunch time wise, and it is easy for others to say oh you're entitled to this, that and the other, it's not going to go down well where you are. Are you rostered for working weekends?if not then y If the unmentionable happens... For instance if your grandparent was to pass away say on a Wednesday, would they consider postponing the funeral for a day so that you could attend on a weeknd, Equally funerals don't generally follow the usual sequence like they used to years ago- person passes away say Monday, wake Tuesday, burial Wednesday, these days people have to travel to get home etc... I'm really clutching at straws here but ya never know

I don't want to be overly pushy about the funeral as in fairness it's down to her children to make the final decision. If however they were to say it was going to be on a day where I'm due to work, but I'd be off the following day, I will definitely be asking if we could delay it 1 day. All my aunts and uncles are very much aware that I'll struggle to get the day off so I'm sure they wouldn't have any problem with it. (I really struggled to get time off for my uncles funeral, even though I was using annual leave, because it was a weekend and no one wanted to cover for me.)

Aber2012

It sounds like a hostile place to work.... And this is the last thing you should have to worry about at a time like this. Have to say your colleagues are just as heartless, I'm sure you would do anything in a time of crisis to make sure things were easier for them. A lot of people don't function that way unfortunately. Are you looking for a job else where?!

Paco Rodriguez

If your uncle is on your father's side you are entitled to time off. If it is your mother's side your employer are under no obligation to give you time.

davo10

Paco Rodriguez wrote: »

If your uncle is on your father's side you are entitled to time off. If it is your mother's side your employer are under no obligation to give you time.

What?, completely misinformed.

From Citizens Advice.

Compassionate leave

If a member of your close family dies you have no entitlement to force majeure leave. Other compassionate leave not covered by force majeure leave will depend on your employment contract, custom and practice within your workplace or the employer's discretion.

Kristopherus

davo10 wrote: »

What?, completely misinformed.

From Citizens Advice.

Compassionate leave

If a member of your close family dies you have no entitlement to force majeure leave. Other compassionate leave not covered by force majeure leave will depend on your employment contract, custom and practice within your workplace or the employer's discretion.

Force majeure is there to cover unforeseen occurences. That would cover sudden illnesses, accidents etc, but not foreseeable compassionate leave.