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Is feminism a dirty word?
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If we compare feminism to a train, the crazies (Ivana Bacik, Andrea Dworkin etc) are the locomotive engine and the sane ones are the caboose.
You've summed up in one epic analogy what I've been trying to sum up for this entire thread, and I'd usually consider analogies my forte. Well done sir.
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The Corinthian wrote: »But there isn't equal distribution of work and home rights. With regards to children, women have an overwhelming share of rights. So wanting to leave these traditional female roles untouched, but seeking an equal footing with men in traditional male roles is looking to have your cake and eat it.
Has feminism even acknowledged this? Or is it willing to address this inequality that now favours women? If not you cannot claim that feminism seeks equality.
Clearly I understand better than you. Patriarchy may have favoured men, but to suggest that women did not have rights and privileges assigned to their gender would be grossly dishonest. Women did not have to go to war, women were expected to be financially cared for by men, not the other way around, women would (certainly from the twentieth century) would automatically get custody of children, regardless of whether this was in the child's interest.
If you believe in equality, level the system constructed by patriarchy, then you have to accept that both men and women need to sacrifice their traditional gender based rights and privileges, otherwise you don't want equality, you want to have your cake and eat it.
And with this comes the overwhelming sense of responsibility.
C'mon now, lets get real here.
In all of the 2 parent working couples I know(and off the top of my head its roughly about 20 couples)only in a couple of cases does the father do "extra" when home(and for this they proclaim it wildly
)
Both parties work similar hours(39/40 hours).
But in the real world, she cooks the meal in the evening, does the laundry and ironing(are you really going to tell me that the men are doing the family ironing?)does the homework, baths the kids, puts them to bed(the men go up and say goodnight but do not oversee the teeth brushing, pyjamas getting on, tempers and fits and drinks of water etc, up and down the damn stairs settling the kids even after the story telling)
Sick child?
Who is up and down(mostly) with the Calpol and cleaning up the puke?
Doctors visit? Who mostly attends with the child? The mother.
Parent teacher meetings?
At one this week and the split was 90/10 for women attending and I was there for an hour and a half. All extra duties.
Cleaning ovens and toilets?????
Microwaves and doing the beds laundry?
Mopping out floors and hoovering?
Polishing and general cleaning of the home?
You can throw every damn study at it and it still doesn't make it so.0 -
And this is relevant because? Your argument isn't an argument. If the women in these relationships are happy doing this more power to them. Unless the men are physically forcing them to do all of this extra work, then this isn't an issue. If she doesn't ask (or expect her OH) to help out, then this isn't an issue. Also, I'm super amazed you know the ins and outs of 20 couples lives. That's incredible and doesn't sound at all like a load of BS!And with this comes the overwhelming sense of responsibility.
C'mon now, lets get real here.
In all of the 2 parent working couples I know(and off the top of my head its roughly about 20 couples)only in a couple of cases does the father do "extra" when home(and for this they proclaim it wildly)
Both parties work similar hours(39/40 hours).
But in the real world, she cooks the meal in the evening, does the laundry and ironing(are you really going to tell me that the men are doing the family ironing?)does the homework, baths the kids, puts them to bed(the men go up and say goodnight but do not oversee the teeth brushing, pyjamas getting on, tempers and fits and drinks of water etc, up and down the damn stairs settling the kids even after the story telling)
Sick child?
Who is up and down(mostly) with the Calpol and cleaning up the puke?
Doctors visit? Who mostly attends with the child? The mother.
Parent teacher meetings?
At one this week and the split was 90/10 for women attending and I was there for an hour and a half. All extra duties.
Cleaning ovens and toilets?????
Microwaves and doing the beds laundry?
Mopping out floors and hoovering?
Polishing and general cleaning of the home?
You can throw every damn study at it and it still doesn't make it so.
For your information, I know 4 women with children. Two are single and the other two share the workload with their OH. So again, just because your (supposed) experiences scream that "the men are lazy" (not oppressive) doesn't mean that all men are.0 -
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God forbid that in a discussion people disagree and offer counter arguments! What a bizarre complaint - maybe you should go find a thread on how wonderful feminism is, that doesn't allow dissent?dark crystal wrote: »Ah right. So feminists can't do right for doing wrong so.
This is why when the anti feminists ask for examples, then get them, they find ways to discredit those examples. I get ya.
Thing is that some feminists have seen this flaw in feminism, or have altogether become disillusioned by it and have effectively become MRA's or egalitarians. And unfortunately this has often led to them being attacked for doing this by feminists.
No problem there. The only criticism I've made is that feminism does not represent gender equality, only women's rights and interests. And there's nothing wrong with that, what's wrong is when a movement persistently claims to represent gender equality and does not.mrkiscool2 wrote: »Jesus lads, let feminists work on areas in which women are disadvantaged, MRA's can work on areas men are disadvantaged and egalitarians can work with both to ensure gender equality.
Is it? Where it comes to domestic violence, there is increasing evidence that this is pretty equally spread, with men suffering violence from their female partners as often as women do from their male partners (not to mention violence in gay and lesbian relationships).Also, when feminists refer to any problem as "gender something" (etc "gender violence, gender pay gap") and then don't focus on males being disadvantaged in those areas that's a blatant and disgusting lie that I can't stomach.
And the gender pay gap? It's only recently that whenever figures on this are released, part time workers are accounted for in the statistics presented, and figures such as childless women in their 40's and 20's out-earning their male counterparts are still never mentioned, preferring to instead paint a picture of a pay gap produced by some sort of discrimination (rather than child care). I'm not all that fond of the intentional misleading that takes place there either.
That was kinda my point. Attitudes need to change on both sides, but they're simply not going to change much when society and the law persists in saying the opposite. After all, how practical is it for a father to deal with his child's school when he'll be put through the ringer to prove he has any right to do so, while the mother won't even be asked for a single piece of paper (also because she doesn't need them).And with this comes the overwhelming sense of responsibility.
C'mon now, lets get real here.
In all of the 2 parent working couples I know(and off the top of my head its roughly about 20 couples)only in a couple of cases does the father do "extra" when home(and for this they proclaim it wildly)0 -
And with this comes the overwhelming sense of responsibility.
C'mon now, lets get real here.
In all of the 2 parent working couples I know(and off the top of my head its roughly about 20 couples)only in a couple of cases does the father do "extra" when home(and for this they proclaim it wildly)
Both parties work similar hours(39/40 hours).
But in the real world, she cooks the meal in the evening, does the laundry and ironing(are you really going to tell me that the men are doing the family ironing?)does the homework, baths the kids, puts them to bed(the men go up and say goodnight but do not oversee the teeth brushing, pyjamas getting on, tempers and fits and drinks of water etc, up and down the damn stairs settling the kids even after the story telling)
Sick child?
Who is up and down(mostly) with the Calpol and cleaning up the puke?
Doctors visit? Who mostly attends with the child? The mother.
Parent teacher meetings?
At one this week and the split was 90/10 for women attending and I was there for an hour and a half. All extra duties.
Cleaning ovens and toilets?????
Microwaves and doing the beds laundry?
Mopping out floors and hoovering?
Polishing and general cleaning of the home?
You can throw every damn study at it and it still doesn't make it so.
The allocation of household chores is a personal negotiation between two parties. There is no legal discrimination that takes place.
Then you must also consider who the level of cleanliness both parties find acceptable. If one party is content with say "level 5" cleanliness should they be obligated to meet the requirements of say "level 8" cleanliness because "level 8" cleanliness is what the other party finds acceptable?
To take it to the extreme, if one party wants the bathroom to meet microchip laboratory levels of cleanliness and sterility should the other party obligated to meet those standards. In my opinion the answer is no.0 -
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This discussion has been closed.
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