Old drivers

Shenshen · 05-12-2014 10:55AM #1

I've just stumbled across this article :

A Judge has told elderly drivers that they must ‘face up to facts’ if they are no longer safe on the roads after sentencing an 84-year-old woman who killed an 80-year-old man in a head-on smash.

Judge Stephen Holt also urged families and friends to ‘monitor’ ageing relatives as he imposed a five-year driving ban on Beryl Hughes and a 24-week jail sentence suspended for 12 months.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2861441/Judge-warns-older-drivers-woman-84-kills-man-80-Quit-unsafe-tells-them.html

It's a subject quite close to my own heart. My grandfather is in his 80s now. He's got the eyesight of a startled bat and the reaction time of a hungover glacier. Yet he still drives.

To tell you the truth, I didn't think he was fit to drive even 15 years ago, I always refused to get into the car with him it scared me so much.

But nothing the family says to him gets through. It's never him that's the problem, it's always everybody else. In his mind, his driving it perfect and it's not his fault that traffic lights change so quickly these days (he's convinced the government has changed the speed with which green turns to amber turns to red, to catch out motorists and make money), it's not his fault cyclists are speeding, it's not his fault mothers with prams leap into the road in front of his car, and he's convinced nobody on the roads has working break lights as he never notices them.

We've tried all we can as a family, and we've come up with some elaborate schemes. Trying to get him to sell his car to their cleaning lady, in exchange for her driving them whenwver they need to go anywhere - no success.
Getting his doctor talk to him - no success (he rang the insurance to cancel it and the nice lady on the phone told him that there was absolutely no reason he should have to stop driving. So he renewed his insurance instead and she got her bonus).
Filling his tank with diesel, hoping it would ruin the engine (no, we're not proud of that, just desperate) - didn't work.

My mother was looking into ways of legally forcing him to hand in his license. But he would have to be declared mentally incapacitated - a lengthy and costly process, with very little success in most cases. So no luck on that front.

At this point, I do believe he will have to kill someone before we really can stop him driving. I feel that is very wrong, I know I will feel like I'll be partially to blame and will feel extremely guilty, but there is absolutely nothing we can do.

So what does AH think? Any suggestions, anything we haven't tried yet?
Should there be a law to force people after a certain age to have regular assessments to see if they're still fit to drive?
Personally, I'd be in favour of mandatory tests every 5 or 10 years for every driver, regardless of age. We test the cars every year, but what about the dirvers?

chakotha · 05-12-2014 10:58AM

I thought there was a mandatory test after a certain age. Maybe just an eye test?

caustic 1 · 05-12-2014 11:01AM

Have a word with his doc when due eye-test, he won't get licence without test, it's sad but the only way we could get father in law of road for his safety and others.

K.Flyer · 05-12-2014 11:06AM

Shenshen wrote: »

....
Personally, I'd be in favour of mandatory tests every 5 or 10 years for every driver, regardless of age. We test the cars every year, but what about the dirvers?

I would agree that some sort of assessment should be in place before renewing your licence. It makes perfect sense when you see and hear about the high number of accidents, collisions and the high levels of dangerous driving being reported.

Sam Kade · 05-12-2014 11:09AM

Yes drivers over a certain age need to be assessed. Mandatory tests every 5-10 years would be a waste of time as I see drivers that could do a test every 5 months and they still wouldn't get it. I saw a learner driver last year just after passing her test she took off out of the test center without any indicator and drove out in front of oncoming traffic. Like many people she believes when she passes her test she can drive as she pleases :rolleyes:

whiskeyman · 05-12-2014 11:10AM

Texting while driving may be a new thing for our generation, but the older folk still are prone to writing letters while behind the wheel, which is even a bigger risk.
I've seen some grey haired drivers totally distracted while fumbling with their writing pads, and envelopes.

Going Strong · 05-12-2014 11:14AM

There's an assessment that can be done but it needs to happen through the person's GP. We got my father taken off the road six months ago as we were concerned that he wasn't up to it anymore. He was assessed by a specialist instructor and failed on half a dozen points. In his case it was a complete and utter inattention to pedestrians and cyclists. We were lucky in that my dad wasn't bothered about giving up the car but the instructor said that sometimes it's a much tougher proposition. He mentioned that he'd had to go to court and give evidence concerning someone he'd assessed as being unfit to drive but who carried on anyways with unfortunate consequences but didn't elaborate further.

the groutch · 05-12-2014 11:18AM

needs to a test of reaction times as well as eyesight, having 20/20 vision is no use if you go into the back of someone because of taking too long to brake.

VinLieger · 05-12-2014 11:21AM

Any doctor who okay's an old person to drive should also be held liable for any accident's they caused.

Going Strong · 05-12-2014 11:22AM

the groutch wrote: »

needs to a test of reaction times as well as eyesight, having 20/20 vision is no use if you go into the back of someone because of taking too long to brake.

Pretty much what happened in my dad's case. His driving was fine, gear changes, lane discipline, awareness of other vehicles all grand. Only, anyone trying to use a pedestrian or zebra crossing might as well give up and go home before he'd actually notice them and stop. Cycle lanes as well didn't exist as far as he was concerned.

cormie · 05-12-2014 11:24AM

I posted this over on the motors forum for discussion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lplR6KCyKQ

The driver was a 90 year old male and apparently had a very similar incident two weeks prior to the above.

I was pretty surprised to see a few people were against the idea of more regular testing as people get older. It's true, these things can happen to anyone, but it's also a fact of life we'll all have to accept eventually that our reaction time, awareness, reflexes and everything else will dwindle.

Sam Kade · 05-12-2014 11:25AM

whiskeyman wrote: »

Texting while driving may be a new thing for our generation, but the older folk still are prone to writing letters while behind the wheel, which is even a bigger risk.
I've seen some grey haired drivers totally distracted while fumbling with their writing pads, and envelopes.

I've never seen that in fairness, I've seen plenty young women texting while driving though.

BeatNikDub · 05-12-2014 11:25AM

Once my dad hit 70 he had to be seen by his GP before he could get another licence renewed, and its for 3 years.
He went back for his new one recently and the GP refused until his blood pressure was monitored for a few days, all turned out ok though.
However he was saying his sister in law who is over 80, her doc would only sign off a licence for a year.
So in saying all of this, should GP's be monitoring this better?
I know from driving myself that in all honesty, a lot of elderly people make me rather nervous. I once passed a chap in Kilkenny driving around a roundabout the wrong way looking utterly bewildered.

Shenshen · 05-12-2014 11:25AM

Sam Kade wrote: »

Yes drivers over a certain age need to be assessed. Mandatory tests every 5-10 years would be a waste of time as I see drivers that could do a test every 5 months and they still wouldn't get it. I saw a learner driver last year just after passing her test she took off out of the test center without any indicator and drove out in front of oncoming traffic. Like many people she believes when she passes her test she can drive as she pleases :rolleyes:

But wouldn't the knowledge that she will be assessed again in a few years diminish that belief to some extend?

My thinking behind suggesting continuous assessment is that cars change and the rules of the road change, not to mention that bad habits creep in.

My husband took his test some 25 years ago, I took mine 3 years ago. What I was told by my instructor directly contradicts some of the driving behaviours I see in my husband. Don't get me wrong, I'd say he's a safe enough driver, but some things he was taught just don't make much sense any more.

Melodeon · 05-12-2014 11:27AM

Minimum of a fresh eye test and a fresh Driver Theory Test for everyone to renew existing licence, or to get it back following a ban.

SEPT 23 1989 · 05-12-2014 11:29AM

Its a difficult thing to do to take an old person off the road,its their last bit of independence taken away but if they are a danger to everything around them they need to stop driving

TheMilkyPirate · 05-12-2014 11:30AM

I think it's absolutely unbelievable that there isn't regular testing for people over say 65. Your senses start to fail and your reaction times slow down, It makes perfect sense for people of old age to re sit their test every year.

Shenshen · 05-12-2014 11:32AM

BeatNikDub wrote: »

Once my dad hit 70 he had to be seen by his GP before he could get another licence renewed, and its for 3 years.
He went back for his new one recently and the GP refused until his blood pressure was monitored for a few days, all turned out ok though.
However he was saying his sister in law who is over 80, her doc would only sign off a licence for a year.
So in saying all of this, should GP's be monitoring this better?
I know from driving myself that in all honesty, a lot of elderly people make me rather nervous. I once passed a chap in Kilkenny driving around a roundabout the wrong way looking utterly bewildered.

That's the thing - with his 2kg heavy glasses on, my grandfather can see. But he refuses to wear them most of the time as they're understandably very heavy.

I'm not sure how a GP could reasonably establish a person's capability to drive, unless they actually got in the car with them?

About 2 years ago, there was a case down here in Cork of an old gentleman driving down the sliproad from Carrigtwohill onto the N25 going to Midleton, stopped at the bottom of the sliproad, indicated and turned right onto that dual carriageway going the wrong way, towards Cork.
A friend of mine had driven past him on the sliproad and saw him performing that manoeuver in his rear mirror. He pulled over straight away, but while he was still on the phone to the guards, he already heard the crash.
Thankfully, the old man only ended up killing himself and not anyone else in the bargain, but I can honestly see my grandfather doing just that one of these days...

ZiabR · 05-12-2014 11:33AM

@cormie - that is unreal, nevermind hitting parked cars but the fact that it was a carpark means he could have easily killed someone by pinning them to a parked car... I am in favour of testing older drivers to make sure they can still handle a car correctly and safely.

roadsmart · 05-12-2014 11:40AM

Afaiaa the local Garda superintendent can apply to have his licence revoked if he is considered to be an unsafe driver.

Graces7 · 05-12-2014 11:44AM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Its a difficult thing to do to take an old person off the road,its their last bit of independence taken away but if they are a danger to everything around them they need to stop driving

Needs to be cushioned by help with shopping etc and a bus pass

Graces7 · 05-12-2014 11:48AM

TheMilkyPirate wrote: »

I think it's absolutely unbelievable that there isn't regular testing for people over say 65. Your senses start to fail and your reaction times slow down, It makes perfect sense for people of old age to re sit their test every year.

65 is not old . And the system would not cope with the work. I am over 70 and my reaction times are spot on as was seen in a RTA recently where my fast and efficient reactions saved lives Better relatives and GP step in.

If i had an old wan who was a danger I would take his keys away!

TheMilkyPirate · 05-12-2014 11:51AM

Graces7 wrote: »

65 is not old . And the system would not cope with the work. I am over 70 and my reaction times are spot on as was seen in a RTA recently where my fast and efficient reactions saved lives Better relatives and GP step in.

If i had an old wan who was a danger I would take his keys away!

Considering the fact that the average life expectancy for an adult male in Ireland is 78, 65 I'm afraid to say is old.

Just because your reactions are fine does not mean everybody elses are. In fact I would say you are the exception.

Shenshen · 05-12-2014 11:59AM

Graces7 wrote: »

65 is not old . And the system would not cope with the work. I am over 70 and my reaction times are spot on as was seen in a RTA recently where my fast and efficient reactions saved lives Better relatives and GP step in.

If i had an old wan who was a danger I would take his keys away!

Then you shouldn't have any problems passing the test, surely?

I'm afraid if we did take his keys or his car away, he's quite likely to call the guards and drag us into court. It's one of his favourite past times, sueing everyone in the neighbourhood over anything he can think off.

Sheldons Brain · 05-12-2014 11:59AM

That's the thing - with his 2kg heavy glasses on, my grandfather can see. But he refuses to wear them most of the time as they're understandably very heavy.

Surely optic technology can provide a lighter option nowadays.

TheMilkyPirate wrote: »

Just because your reactions are fine does not mean everybody elses are. In fact I would say you are the exception.

The exception for 65 year olds or the exception for people generally? As insurance data shows sixty somethings are not a major risk on the road.

People's abilities vary greatly and this difference can increased with age, so generalities are not useful.

I think rules of the road tests are required for everyone and in this day and age it should be possible to have a driving simulator where someone could sit down for 5 minutes to check their general responses. i.e. do you brake when the light turns red.

Driverless cars in the future will be an important contribution to mobility for elders, I hope they hurry up developing them.

Graces7 · 05-12-2014 12:03PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Then you shouldn't have any problems passing the test, surely?

I'm afraid if we did take his keys or his car away, he's quite likely to call the guards and drag us into court. It's one of his favourite past times, sueing everyone in the neighbourhood over anything he can think off.

Oh very droll!
And unrealistic for many reasons

You need to stand up to this old wan. Maybe he will " lose" his keys mysteriously

Shenshen · 05-12-2014 12:08PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh very droll!
And unrealistic for many reasons

You need to stand up to this old wan. Maybe he will " lose" his keys mysteriously

Unrealistic? He's sued half the village at this point. My grandmother is scared to go shopping locally because of the hatred she gets for his sake.

We've tried standing up to him, trust me. In my case, for the last 15 years now. He's got a few keys for the car, sometimes he says he's got 3, sometimes 2, and we don't know where he would be keeping those.

It's an old car, well over 30 years at this point, so it would have been reasonably easy for him to get extra keys - no electronic locks or anything.

roadsmart · 05-12-2014 12:15PM

Any friends with a barn? That car could be stolen.

Graces7 · 05-12-2014 12:17PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Unrealistic? He's sued half the village at this point. My grandmother is scared to go shopping locally because of the hatred she gets for his sake.

We've tried standing up to him, trust me. In my case, for the last 15 years now. He's got a few keys for the car, sometimes he says he's got 3, sometimes 2, and we don't know where he would be keeping those.

It's an old car, well over 30 years at this point, so it would have been reasonably easy for him to get extra keys - no electronic locks or anything.

Your posts read as if you have no intention of solving your problem.. accepting no suggestion anyone here makes. Over and out; I have to load my little car ready for a craft fair tomorrow.. Bye!

The One Doctor · 05-12-2014 12:38PM

Drain the all coolant and leave a pipe disconnected. Or undo the sparkplugs and fill the cylinders with water. Or cement. Or sand.

Cuddlesworth · 05-12-2014 12:40PM

cormie wrote: »

I was pretty surprised to see a few people were against the idea of more regular testing as people get older. It's true, these things can happen to anyone, but it's also a fact of life we'll all have to accept eventually that our reaction time, awareness, reflexes and everything else will dwindle.

I think most people are against the idea of retesting, since they subconsciously realize that they would also be unable to pass a retest.

Old drivers

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