Old drivers

Shenshen

I've just stumbled across this article :

A Judge has told elderly drivers that they must ‘face up to facts’ if they are no longer safe on the roads after sentencing an 84-year-old woman who killed an 80-year-old man in a head-on smash.

Judge Stephen Holt also urged families and friends to ‘monitor’ ageing relatives as he imposed a five-year driving ban on Beryl Hughes and a 24-week jail sentence suspended for 12 months.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2861441/Judge-warns-older-drivers-woman-84-kills-man-80-Quit-unsafe-tells-them.html

It's a subject quite close to my own heart. My grandfather is in his 80s now. He's got the eyesight of a startled bat and the reaction time of a hungover glacier. Yet he still drives.

To tell you the truth, I didn't think he was fit to drive even 15 years ago, I always refused to get into the car with him it scared me so much.

But nothing the family says to him gets through. It's never him that's the problem, it's always everybody else. In his mind, his driving it perfect and it's not his fault that traffic lights change so quickly these days (he's convinced the government has changed the speed with which green turns to amber turns to red, to catch out motorists and make money), it's not his fault cyclists are speeding, it's not his fault mothers with prams leap into the road in front of his car, and he's convinced nobody on the roads has working break lights as he never notices them.

We've tried all we can as a family, and we've come up with some elaborate schemes. Trying to get him to sell his car to their cleaning lady, in exchange for her driving them whenwver they need to go anywhere - no success.
Getting his doctor talk to him - no success (he rang the insurance to cancel it and the nice lady on the phone told him that there was absolutely no reason he should have to stop driving. So he renewed his insurance instead and she got her bonus).
Filling his tank with diesel, hoping it would ruin the engine (no, we're not proud of that, just desperate) - didn't work.

My mother was looking into ways of legally forcing him to hand in his license. But he would have to be declared mentally incapacitated - a lengthy and costly process, with very little success in most cases. So no luck on that front.

At this point, I do believe he will have to kill someone before we really can stop him driving. I feel that is very wrong, I know I will feel like I'll be partially to blame and will feel extremely guilty, but there is absolutely nothing we can do.

So what does AH think? Any suggestions, anything we haven't tried yet?
Should there be a law to force people after a certain age to have regular assessments to see if they're still fit to drive?
Personally, I'd be in favour of mandatory tests every 5 or 10 years for every driver, regardless of age. We test the cars every year, but what about the dirvers?

chakotha

I thought there was a mandatory test after a certain age. Maybe just an eye test?

caustic 1

Have a word with his doc when due eye-test, he won't get licence without test, it's sad but the only way we could get father in law of road for his safety and others.

K.Flyer

Shenshen wrote: »

....
Personally, I'd be in favour of mandatory tests every 5 or 10 years for every driver, regardless of age. We test the cars every year, but what about the dirvers?

I would agree that some sort of assessment should be in place before renewing your licence. It makes perfect sense when you see and hear about the high number of accidents, collisions and the high levels of dangerous driving being reported.

Sam Kade

Yes drivers over a certain age need to be assessed. Mandatory tests every 5-10 years would be a waste of time as I see drivers that could do a test every 5 months and they still wouldn't get it. I saw a learner driver last year just after passing her test she took off out of the test center without any indicator and drove out in front of oncoming traffic. Like many people she believes when she passes her test she can drive as she pleases :rolleyes:

whiskeyman

Texting while driving may be a new thing for our generation, but the older folk still are prone to writing letters while behind the wheel, which is even a bigger risk.
I've seen some grey haired drivers totally distracted while fumbling with their writing pads, and envelopes.

Going Strong

There's an assessment that can be done but it needs to happen through the person's GP. We got my father taken off the road six months ago as we were concerned that he wasn't up to it anymore. He was assessed by a specialist instructor and failed on half a dozen points. In his case it was a complete and utter inattention to pedestrians and cyclists. We were lucky in that my dad wasn't bothered about giving up the car but the instructor said that sometimes it's a much tougher proposition. He mentioned that he'd had to go to court and give evidence concerning someone he'd assessed as being unfit to drive but who carried on anyways with unfortunate consequences but didn't elaborate further.

the groutch

needs to a test of reaction times as well as eyesight, having 20/20 vision is no use if you go into the back of someone because of taking too long to brake.

VinLieger

Any doctor who okay's an old person to drive should also be held liable for any accident's they caused.

Going Strong

the groutch wrote: »

needs to a test of reaction times as well as eyesight, having 20/20 vision is no use if you go into the back of someone because of taking too long to brake.

Pretty much what happened in my dad's case. His driving was fine, gear changes, lane discipline, awareness of other vehicles all grand. Only, anyone trying to use a pedestrian or zebra crossing might as well give up and go home before he'd actually notice them and stop. Cycle lanes as well didn't exist as far as he was concerned.

cormie

I posted this over on the motors forum for discussion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lplR6KCyKQ

The driver was a 90 year old male and apparently had a very similar incident two weeks prior to the above.

I was pretty surprised to see a few people were against the idea of more regular testing as people get older. It's true, these things can happen to anyone, but it's also a fact of life we'll all have to accept eventually that our reaction time, awareness, reflexes and everything else will dwindle.

Sam Kade

whiskeyman wrote: »

Texting while driving may be a new thing for our generation, but the older folk still are prone to writing letters while behind the wheel, which is even a bigger risk.
I've seen some grey haired drivers totally distracted while fumbling with their writing pads, and envelopes.

I've never seen that in fairness, I've seen plenty young women texting while driving though.

BeatNikDub

Once my dad hit 70 he had to be seen by his GP before he could get another licence renewed, and its for 3 years.
He went back for his new one recently and the GP refused until his blood pressure was monitored for a few days, all turned out ok though.
However he was saying his sister in law who is over 80, her doc would only sign off a licence for a year.
So in saying all of this, should GP's be monitoring this better?
I know from driving myself that in all honesty, a lot of elderly people make me rather nervous. I once passed a chap in Kilkenny driving around a roundabout the wrong way looking utterly bewildered.

Shenshen

Sam Kade wrote: »

Yes drivers over a certain age need to be assessed. Mandatory tests every 5-10 years would be a waste of time as I see drivers that could do a test every 5 months and they still wouldn't get it. I saw a learner driver last year just after passing her test she took off out of the test center without any indicator and drove out in front of oncoming traffic. Like many people she believes when she passes her test she can drive as she pleases :rolleyes:

But wouldn't the knowledge that she will be assessed again in a few years diminish that belief to some extend?

My thinking behind suggesting continuous assessment is that cars change and the rules of the road change, not to mention that bad habits creep in.

My husband took his test some 25 years ago, I took mine 3 years ago. What I was told by my instructor directly contradicts some of the driving behaviours I see in my husband. Don't get me wrong, I'd say he's a safe enough driver, but some things he was taught just don't make much sense any more.

Melodeon

Minimum of a fresh eye test and a fresh Driver Theory Test for everyone to renew existing licence, or to get it back following a ban.

SEPT 23 1989

Its a difficult thing to do to take an old person off the road,its their last bit of independence taken away but if they are a danger to everything around them they need to stop driving

TheMilkyPirate

I think it's absolutely unbelievable that there isn't regular testing for people over say 65. Your senses start to fail and your reaction times slow down, It makes perfect sense for people of old age to re sit their test every year.

Shenshen

BeatNikDub wrote: »

Once my dad hit 70 he had to be seen by his GP before he could get another licence renewed, and its for 3 years.
He went back for his new one recently and the GP refused until his blood pressure was monitored for a few days, all turned out ok though.
However he was saying his sister in law who is over 80, her doc would only sign off a licence for a year.
So in saying all of this, should GP's be monitoring this better?
I know from driving myself that in all honesty, a lot of elderly people make me rather nervous. I once passed a chap in Kilkenny driving around a roundabout the wrong way looking utterly bewildered.

That's the thing - with his 2kg heavy glasses on, my grandfather can see. But he refuses to wear them most of the time as they're understandably very heavy.

I'm not sure how a GP could reasonably establish a person's capability to drive, unless they actually got in the car with them?

About 2 years ago, there was a case down here in Cork of an old gentleman driving down the sliproad from Carrigtwohill onto the N25 going to Midleton, stopped at the bottom of the sliproad, indicated and turned right onto that dual carriageway going the wrong way, towards Cork.
A friend of mine had driven past him on the sliproad and saw him performing that manoeuver in his rear mirror. He pulled over straight away, but while he was still on the phone to the guards, he already heard the crash.
Thankfully, the old man only ended up killing himself and not anyone else in the bargain, but I can honestly see my grandfather doing just that one of these days...

ZiabR

@cormie - that is unreal, nevermind hitting parked cars but the fact that it was a carpark means he could have easily killed someone by pinning them to a parked car... I am in favour of testing older drivers to make sure they can still handle a car correctly and safely.

roadsmart

Afaiaa the local Garda superintendent can apply to have his licence revoked if he is considered to be an unsafe driver.

Graces7

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Its a difficult thing to do to take an old person off the road,its their last bit of independence taken away but if they are a danger to everything around them they need to stop driving

Needs to be cushioned by help with shopping etc and a bus pass

Graces7

TheMilkyPirate wrote: »

I think it's absolutely unbelievable that there isn't regular testing for people over say 65. Your senses start to fail and your reaction times slow down, It makes perfect sense for people of old age to re sit their test every year.

65 is not old . And the system would not cope with the work. I am over 70 and my reaction times are spot on as was seen in a RTA recently where my fast and efficient reactions saved lives Better relatives and GP step in.

If i had an old wan who was a danger I would take his keys away!

TheMilkyPirate

Graces7 wrote: »

65 is not old . And the system would not cope with the work. I am over 70 and my reaction times are spot on as was seen in a RTA recently where my fast and efficient reactions saved lives Better relatives and GP step in.

If i had an old wan who was a danger I would take his keys away!

Considering the fact that the average life expectancy for an adult male in Ireland is 78, 65 I'm afraid to say is old.

Just because your reactions are fine does not mean everybody elses are. In fact I would say you are the exception.

Shenshen

Graces7 wrote: »

65 is not old . And the system would not cope with the work. I am over 70 and my reaction times are spot on as was seen in a RTA recently where my fast and efficient reactions saved lives Better relatives and GP step in.

If i had an old wan who was a danger I would take his keys away!

Then you shouldn't have any problems passing the test, surely?

I'm afraid if we did take his keys or his car away, he's quite likely to call the guards and drag us into court. It's one of his favourite past times, sueing everyone in the neighbourhood over anything he can think off.

Sheldons Brain

That's the thing - with his 2kg heavy glasses on, my grandfather can see. But he refuses to wear them most of the time as they're understandably very heavy.

Surely optic technology can provide a lighter option nowadays.

TheMilkyPirate wrote: »

Just because your reactions are fine does not mean everybody elses are. In fact I would say you are the exception.

The exception for 65 year olds or the exception for people generally? As insurance data shows sixty somethings are not a major risk on the road.

People's abilities vary greatly and this difference can increased with age, so generalities are not useful.

I think rules of the road tests are required for everyone and in this day and age it should be possible to have a driving simulator where someone could sit down for 5 minutes to check their general responses. i.e. do you brake when the light turns red.

Driverless cars in the future will be an important contribution to mobility for elders, I hope they hurry up developing them.

Graces7

Shenshen wrote: »

Then you shouldn't have any problems passing the test, surely?

I'm afraid if we did take his keys or his car away, he's quite likely to call the guards and drag us into court. It's one of his favourite past times, sueing everyone in the neighbourhood over anything he can think off.

Oh very droll!
And unrealistic for many reasons

You need to stand up to this old wan. Maybe he will " lose" his keys mysteriously

Shenshen

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh very droll!
And unrealistic for many reasons

You need to stand up to this old wan. Maybe he will " lose" his keys mysteriously

Unrealistic? He's sued half the village at this point. My grandmother is scared to go shopping locally because of the hatred she gets for his sake.

We've tried standing up to him, trust me. In my case, for the last 15 years now. He's got a few keys for the car, sometimes he says he's got 3, sometimes 2, and we don't know where he would be keeping those.

It's an old car, well over 30 years at this point, so it would have been reasonably easy for him to get extra keys - no electronic locks or anything.

roadsmart

Any friends with a barn? That car could be stolen.

Graces7

Shenshen wrote: »

Unrealistic? He's sued half the village at this point. My grandmother is scared to go shopping locally because of the hatred she gets for his sake.

We've tried standing up to him, trust me. In my case, for the last 15 years now. He's got a few keys for the car, sometimes he says he's got 3, sometimes 2, and we don't know where he would be keeping those.

It's an old car, well over 30 years at this point, so it would have been reasonably easy for him to get extra keys - no electronic locks or anything.

Your posts read as if you have no intention of solving your problem.. accepting no suggestion anyone here makes. Over and out; I have to load my little car ready for a craft fair tomorrow.. Bye!

The One Doctor

Drain the all coolant and leave a pipe disconnected. Or undo the sparkplugs and fill the cylinders with water. Or cement. Or sand.

Cuddlesworth

cormie wrote: »

I was pretty surprised to see a few people were against the idea of more regular testing as people get older. It's true, these things can happen to anyone, but it's also a fact of life we'll all have to accept eventually that our reaction time, awareness, reflexes and everything else will dwindle.

I think most people are against the idea of retesting, since they subconsciously realize that they would also be unable to pass a retest.

Candy_Girl

I honestly think once you hit 70 you should be re tested every year or two. I've lost count the amount of dangerous incidents I've seen from older drivers. I drive back roads quite a lot out this way and it's scary the amount of older people that just don't seem to be alert.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I am in my 70s. My driving is excellent still (of course we'd all say that wouldn't we). I drive a 2 litre saloon that I change every 2 years. I don't do huge milage but I enjoy driving. I would have no issue with a test every 2 years. I currently get regular medicals to ensure I'm fit to drive and would welcome a driving proficiency test. I know several people my age who are certainly a danger to themselves and others on the road. The unfortunate thing is that their cars are their lifelines. Bus pass etc is no good to us here as the nearest bus stop is 3 or 4 miles away and there is only one bus a day. Taking the ability to drive off some people is heartbreaking and can be the final eroding of a person's independence. Not an easy situation.

The Peanut

The actual age of the driver is a secondary, albeit, important factor. I know it would not sit well but I believe that all drivers should be made sit retests at fixed intervals. This would then carry on upwards as people get older.

It doesn't necessarily have to be the same level of detail as the initial test but it should be close. Ffs, any individual with a forklift license has to renew it periodically, I think it might be something similar for haulage drivers. People need to realise that there are people with licenses on our roads who are not equiped to drive.

VinLieger

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I think most people are against the idea of retesting, since they subconsciously realize that they would also be unable to pass a retest.

Surely this is more damning of how the test doesn't actually teach how to drive in real conditions than anything else? People wouldn't be able to pass it because some of the requirements to pass they would not have made use of since they first did it.

VinLieger

Ace Fast Figurine wrote: »

I am in my 70s. My driving is excellent still (of course we'd all say that wouldn't we). I drive a 2 litre saloon that I change every 2 years. I don't do huge milage but I enjoy driving. I would have no issue with a test every 2 years. I currently get regular medicals to ensure I'm fit to drive and would welcome a driving proficiency test. I know several people my age who are certainly a danger to themselves and others on the road. The unfortunate thing is that their cars are their lifelines. Bus pass etc is no good to us here as the nearest bus stop is 3 or 4 miles away and there is only one bus a day. Taking the ability to drive off some people is heartbreaking and can be the final eroding of a person's independence. Not an easy situation.

If you think about the possiblity of saving a life over taking an elderly persons car way from them who is not able to operate it safely anymore its an easy decision imo

Frigga_92

Sam Kade wrote: »

I've never seen that in fairness, I've seen plenty young women texting while driving though.

I'm sure you've seen plenty of people texting while driving, not just "young women".

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Its a difficult thing to do to take an old person off the road,its their last bit of independence taken away but if they are a danger to everything around them they need to stop driving

We went through this with my husband's father before he passed away.
We live in the country with no public transport so getting a bus pass wasn't an option. He thought if he gave up the car he would be confined to the house permanently. He wouldn't have been confined to the house permanently but at the time I was working full time and my husband was in college full time so he knew Monday - Friday during the day he wouldn't be able to go very far.
He also used his car to visit his brother's widow, bring her to do her shopping and bring her out for the day. She didn't drive at all so he knew if he gave up his car those visits would definitely be less frequent.
He wasn't a terrible driver but he also wasn't aware of everything around him but I think it was more a case of "I'm 80, I'm going to do what I want".
Thankfully he never had any accidents.

diomed

I think old people like myself (64 1/2) should be tested by a doctor. We should be tested by a doctor employed by the government, and the tests should be driving related.

My mother drove in her late 80s, and was imo unsafe. We noticed plenty of scrapes on her new car, but she was never in an accident (her opinion). So I drove her to Mass, took her to lunch, did her shopping, brought her to the hairdresser, and to the train station. Finally the battery died in her car.

In November a young driver "overtook" me and hit my car as he entered my lane. He didn't stop, but I have a dashcam, had his registration number, car make and model, video and photographs to show at his local police station. He denied hitting me. The Garda told him he had, and had the evidence. He was a L plate driver driving his daddy's car.

On Sunday evening I was almost hit by another L plate driver who came out of a right lane suddenly. She had confused junctions, realised her mistake, and swung out into traffic without looking.

We need tests for competence, not for age.

VinLieger

diomed wrote: »

I think old people like myself (64 1/2) should be tested by a doctor. We should be tested by a doctor employed by the government, and the tests should be driving related.

My mother drove in her late 80s, and was imo unsafe. We noticed plenty of scrapes on her new car, but she was never in an accident (her opinion). So I drove her to Mass, took her to lunch, did her shopping, brought her to the hairdresser, and to the train station. Finally the battery died in her car.

In November a young driver "overtook" me and hit my car as he entered my lane. He didn't stop, but I have a dashcam, had his registration number, car make and model, video and photographs to show at his local police station. He denied hitting me. The Garda told him he had, and had the evidence. He was a L plate driver driving his daddy's car.

On Sunday evening I was almost hit by another L plate driver who came out of a right lane suddenly. She had confused junctions, realised her mistake, and swung out into traffic without looking.

We need tests for competence, not for age.

Very true, the driving test in its current form has no relevance to actually how to drive on today's roads

Faith+1

VinLieger wrote: »

Very true, the driving test in its current form has no relevance to actually how to drive on today's roads

They really need to introduce a parking manouvre as part of the test. The amount of times I've seen people trying to parallel park and eventually give up. Test is a joke.

P. Breathnach

VinLieger wrote: »

If you think about the possiblity of saving a life over taking an elderly persons car way from them who is not able to operate it safely anymore its an easy decision imo

Fair enough, if you have a reasonable basis for judging that person unfit to drive.

I have felt endangered by many not-so-old drivers. I think that they, too, should be prevented from driving.

VinLieger

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Fair enough, if you have a reasonable basis for judging that person unfit to drive.

I have felt endangered by many not-so-old drivers. I think that they, too, should be prevented from driving.

Which is why we need to improve the driving test so people can learn how to actually drive safely and with others in mind instead of just learning how to pass a test.

Lia_lia

My grandmother is 91 and still drives. Anytime I get in the car with her she seems grand, I used to be a lot more terrified going into the car with my brother when he was 17.

I still think they should get tested every year or two over the age of 80 or so.

Cuddlesworth

VinLieger wrote: »

Surely this is more damning of how the test doesn't actually teach how to drive in real conditions than anything else? People wouldn't be able to pass it because some of the requirements to pass they would not have made use of since they first did it.

Its nothing to do with the requirements that have been added. Its with the attitude that once the license is granted, there is no self assessment or improvement. Skills degrade and bad habits form.

Lia_lia

Many elderly people never even would have taken a test in the first place! My grandmother went to her local town hall, filled in her form, and got her lisence!..

VinLieger

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Its nothing to do with the requirements that have been added. Its with the attitude that once the license is granted, there is no self assessment or improvement. Skills degrade and bad habits form.

Thats because no skills or good habits are taught to pass the test though, the requirements to pass it are burdensome and simply learned by rote until they get the pass and relate in no way to realistically being able to drive on our road's

ScumLord

VinLieger wrote: »

Any doctor who okay's an old person to drive should also be held liable for any accident's they caused.

It's not a given that everyone over 60 is a bad driver. Jackie Stewart (the legendary F1) driver is still well able to drive a car fast around a circuit and he's 75. People age differently, some people get doddery, others seem to function perfectly up until the day they die.


We do seem to let bad drivers slip through the system here in Ireland though, the way we teach drivers isn't great, if they can manage to look good for the test it's enough to let them on the road. It's not just old drivers, the habits start young and there's no effort to correct those bad habits.

Old people should also get their own till at the shops too, the amount of times I've gotten stuck behind some old one counting out pennies to pay for their shopping is scandalous. They have notes, I can see the notes, just pay with the fecking note for the love of god.

Philo Beddoe

Shenshen wrote: »

Then you shouldn't have any problems passing the test, surely?

I'm afraid if we did take his keys or his car away, he's quite likely to call the guards and drag us into court. It's one of his favourite past times, sueing everyone in the neighbourhood over anything he can think off.

He sounds like gas craic altogether.

MythicalMadMan

VinLieger wrote: »

If you think about the possiblity of saving a life over taking an elderly persons car way from them who is not able to operate it safely anymore its an easy decision imo

Let's take all cars and buses off the road can't just convience the old the save potential lost lives.

VinLieger

MythicalMadMan wrote: »

Let's take all cars and buses off the road can't just convience the old the save potential lost lives.

We should be banning more dangerous drivers I agree, although your comment seems to indicate you think its a ridiculous idea, obviously your not somebody who has ever been touched by tragedy through a car accident

Pumpkinseeds

My very elderly grandmother was an absolute menace behind the wheel. As far as I know she actually did manage to hit squad cars twice:eek: There's a lot of nonsense talked about how elderly drivers should have the right to drive. Driving is not a basic human right and there comes a point where they shouldn't be allowed to drive. Nowadays people are a lot fitter both mentally and physically for longer but we do need to have a realistic cut off point for driving. There's a mandatory work retirement age and the same should apply to driving.