Standing on a train from Athy to Dublin

LXFlyer · 04-12-2014 09:11PM

Well by the looks of things Irish Rail are responding to this.

http://www.irishrail.ie/news/extratrain

An extra service will operate from Dublin Heuston to Kilkenny Friday 5th December

04 December 2014
Iarnród Éireann has introduced an additional service this Friday 5th December to cater for increased demand on our services.
The following additional service will operate;
Friday 5th December - 14:40hrs Dublin Heuston to Kilkenny

This service along with all regular services can be viewed and booked through the journey planner above.

Cookie_Monster · 04-12-2014 09:13PM

Emme wrote: »

A CIE worker? I would need a time machine to find one of those. In the days of CIE the service was not as bad as it is now and there were not as many people who did long rail commutes to work.

CIE is still the parent company of all three organisations

LXFlyer · 04-12-2014 09:20PM

Emme wrote: »

Who sets the fares?
The government and Iarnrod Eireann

Who sets the level of service?
The funding received by Iarnrod Eireann from the government sets the overall level of service. Iarnrod Eireann allocates the funding and ultimately the service level. It appears that they are allocating more funding to some lines and decreasing funding to others.

Who benefits if the line is closed?
Hardly anybody except the owners of private bus companies. Closing the line might free up more money but the damage incurred will more than offset any gains. The government will lose even more support from people living near the defunct stations. Jobs will be lost and this will have a knock on effect on local economies. OAPs who depended on the train for a day out will be housebound.

All those affected would be sure to make their feelings known at election time.

It's actually the NTA who:
- Set subsidy levels based on government funding decisions
- Specify service levels

I'm not sure that it's quite fair to say other lines are being prioritised - those other lines may have greater numbers of customers in the first place.

As for the election - I'm not sure that is going to make any particular difference. The economy (despite whatever spin is put on it) is still in deficit, and that is going to dictate what government spending can be. Until that is sorted out, we are still spending more than we have - that is no basis to run an economy.

As passenger numbers start rising, subsidies need to increase again to allow for more trains and buses to be put into service. However, whether the money is there to do this is another question. I don't think any political party is going to have a magic wand that will solve all of these problems.

LXFlyer · 04-12-2014 09:26PM

Emme wrote: »

In the days of CIE the service was not as bad as it is now and there were not as many people who did long rail commutes to work.

I don't think anyone could stand over a comment like that.

There were only 4 trains a day on the Waterford line, now there are 7.

Every other route has significant frequency increases as well.

Emme · 04-12-2014 09:31PM

lxflyer wrote: »

It's actually the NTA who:
- Set subsidy levels based on government funding decisions
- Specify service levels

I'm not sure that it's quite fair to say other lines are being prioritised - those other lines may have greater numbers of customers in the first place.

As for the election - I'm not sure that is going to make any particular difference. The economy (despite whatever spin is put on it) is still in deficit, and that is going to dictate what government spending can be. Until that is sorted out, we are still spending more than we have - that is no basis to run an economy.

As passenger numbers start rising, subsidies need to increase again to allow for more trains and buses to be put into service. However, whether the money is there to do this is another question. I don't think any political party is going to have a magic wand that will solve all of these problems.

All people travelling on the Waterford line expect is an adequate number of carriages to accommodate passengers in reasonable comfort. Some of these passengers may have to stand for the first stops but nobody should have to stand beyond Kildare. Those who have to stand should be accommodated safely in the spaces between carriages.

Fair play to Irish Rail for putting an extra train on next Friday. However, they need to increase the capacity of trains on the Waterford line to a safe level all year round. I'm not demanding a seat for everyone for the entire journey, just a safe reasonably comfortable journey regardless of whether passengers are standing or sitting. Standing in the space between carriages (or anywhere in a carriage for that matter) is unacceptable unless the carriages are equipped for standees.

foggy_lad · 04-12-2014 09:31PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Well by the looks of things Irish Rail are responding to this.

http://www.irishrail.ie/news/extratrain

One extra off peak train on one single friday afternoon is hardly going to help those who are crammed into 3/4 car trains at 4.40pm, 5.35pm and 6.35pm.

What is required is for two of these three peak time trains to be made non stop to Athy, That way Athy, Carlow and Waterford passengers are prioritised while all others can be accommodated on the dedicated Portlaoise commuter services.

Emme · 04-12-2014 09:32PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

One extra off peak train on one single friday afternoon is hardly going to help those who are crammed into 3/4 car trains at 4.40pm, 5.35pm and 6.35pm.

What is required is for two of these three peak time trains to be made non stop to Athy, That way Athy, Carlow and Waterford passengers are prioritised while all others can be accommodated on the dedicated Portlaoise commuter services.

This is a good point. People who are travelling to the stations before Athy have a much better choice of trains than those who are travelling to Athy and beyond.

4 car trains are not safe or adequate for the 4.40pm, 5.35pm and 6.35pm services. 5 car trains barely suffice particularly 5 car trains with one premier class car.

LXFlyer · 04-12-2014 09:38PM

Emme wrote: »

All people travelling on the Waterford line expect is an adequate number of carriages to accommodate passengers in reasonable comfort. Some of these passengers may have to stand for the first stops but nobody should have to stand beyond Kildare. Those who have to stand should be accommodated safely in the spaces between carriages.

Fair play to Irish Rail for putting an extra train on next Friday. However, they need to increase the capacity of trains on the Waterford line to a safe level all year round. I'm not demanding a seat for everyone for the entire journey, just a safe reasonably comfortable journey regardless of whether passengers are standing or sitting. Standing in the space between carriages (or anywhere in a carriage for that matter) is unacceptable unless the carriages are equipped for standees.

Just to clarify - standing on an Intercity train is not unsafe. It is probably uncomfortable, and I do sympathise with you in that regard, but to suggest it is not safe is not correct. People have been standing in the vestibules of intercity trains the world over for years.

If however, you feel that it is unsafe, you're perfectly entitled to contact the Railway Safety Commission.

LXFlyer · 04-12-2014 09:40PM

Emme wrote: »

This is a good point. People who are travelling to the stations before Athy have a much better choice of trains than those who are travelling to Athy and beyond.

4 car trains are not safe or adequate for the 4.40pm, 5.35pm and 6.35pm services. 5 car trains barely suffice particularly 5 car trains with one premier class car.

But are those trains not normally 6 car, 6 car and 5 car respectively?

If they're not it's probably due to a set failure, and there's not much that can be done in those circumstances.

end of the road · 04-12-2014 09:59PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

One extra off peak train on one single friday afternoon is hardly going to help those who are crammed into 3/4 car trains at 4.40pm, 5.35pm and 6.35pm.

What is required is for two of these three peak time trains to be made non stop to Athy, That way Athy, Carlow and Waterford passengers are prioritised while all others can be accommodated on the dedicated Portlaoise commuter services.

exactly. this goes for any services out of heuston, if they are known to be severely over packed, and carriges can't or won't be increased, then stops may need to be removed between dublin and athy for waterford services, and dublin and portlaoise for others. overcrowding will always happen, but from what i'm hearing i'm not sure the amount by which trains are overcrowded is safe.

Emme · 04-12-2014 10:01PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Just to clarify - standing on an Intercity train is not unsafe. It is probably uncomfortable, and I do sympathise with you in that regard, but to suggest it is not safe is not correct.

It is unsafe if passengers have nothing to grip or if they are relying on the passengers around them to keep them upright. I fell on a crushed train and got trampled. Luckily I wasn't injured but I could have been. Definitely not safe.

lxflyer wrote: »

People have been standing in the vestibules of intercity trains the world over for years.

What are these people supposed to grip if the train lurches forward or the journey is bumpy? Where are they supposed to go when the catering cart comes around? The catering cart sells hot drinks and even if a small number of passengers are standing between carriages they are at risk of getting burnt if the person seated beside them drops their hot drink. If any passengers have to stand in the vestibules of intercity trains the catering cart should not be permitted to serve hot drinks.

lxflyer wrote: »

If however, you feel that it is unsafe, you're perfectly entitled to contact the Railway Safety Commission.

I am tempted to say that "Railway Safety Commission" is an oxymoron but not all trains are as crush loaded as the Waterford train.

lxflyer wrote: »

But are those trains not normally 6 car, 6 car and 5 car respectively?

They should be, but in many cases they are not. There is no consistency of service.

lxflyer wrote: »

If they're not it's probably due to a set failure, and there's not much that can be done in those circumstances.

Is it really a set failure or has Irish Rail decided to allocate the cars elsewhere? There seems to be an inordinate number of set failures on Waterford commuter trains.

end of the road · 04-12-2014 10:07PM

lxflyer wrote: »

But are those trains not normally 6 car, 6 car and 5 car respectively?

If they're not it's probably due to a set failure, and there's not much that can be done in those circumstances.

whats being said from what i can gather, is that waterford is a problem line when it comes to short trains, they are a regular occurrence. a set failure can happen, but IE should be prepared for such failures, and it can't be a regular occurrence unless maintenence has been cut causing failures to be more regular. we have enough stock if they would use 29s on the heuston commuter services, but they won't, even though it would allow ICRS to operate the lines they were actually bought for. its not as if they would be much slower anyway stopping left right and centre at every little station. something will have to give. losing customers on the waterford and other long distance lines to the car, or at a stretch the bus, is not an option don't you think

Urethra Franklin · 04-12-2014 10:16PM

end of the road wrote: »

whats being said from what i can gather, is that waterford is a problem line when it comes to short trains, they are a regular occurrence. a set failure can happen, but IE should be prepared for such failures, and it can't be a regular occurrence unless maintenence has been cut causing failures to be more regular. we have enough stock if they would use 29s on the heuston commuter services, but they won't, even though it would allow ICRS to operate the lines they were actually bought for. its not as if they would be much slower anyway stopping left right and centre at every little station. something will have to give. losing customers on the waterford and other long distance lines to the car, or at a stretch the bus, is not an option don't you think

2900s wouldn't be best for portlaoise commuter. Far too slow. The stopping at every station might seem a lot but the ICRs are actually able to get up to a good speed on that service, which the 29s wouldn't be able to. Also bear in mind they've got to mix with the rest of the ICRs between Hazelhatch and Portlaoise and they've got to keep up the pace... Also sets would be rotated to portlaoise for the depot anyway. It's not as simple as it seems.

As a Waterford line user myself I can't see what the fuss is about? Empty trains and people complain. Full trains and people complain! Most times I see people standing there are seats, they just don't want to sit next to people... I haven't had to stand since the Tall Ships and I'd make a return tourney two or three times a month...

LXFlyer · 04-12-2014 10:28PM

Emme wrote: »

It is unsafe if passengers have nothing to grip or if they are relying on the passengers around them to keep them upright. I fell on a crushed train and got trampled. Luckily I wasn't injured but I could have been. Definitely not safe.

What are these people supposed to grip if the train lurches forward or the journey is bumpy? Where are they supposed to go when the catering cart comes around? The catering cart sells hot drinks and even if a small number of passengers are standing between carriages they are at risk of getting burnt if the person seated beside them drops their hot drink. If any passengers have to stand in the vestibules of intercity trains the catering cart should not be permitted to serve hot drinks.

I am tempted to say that "Railway Safety Commission" is an oxymoron but not all trains are as crush loaded as the Waterford train.

They should be, but in many cases they are not. There is no consistency of service.

Is it really a set failure or has Irish Rail decided to allocate the cars elsewhere? There seems to be an inordinate number of set failures on Waterford commuter trains.

Well, as I said, if you feel that it is unsafe, contact the Railway Safety Commission at www.rsc.ie, who are the relevant authority responsible.

From their website:

Who do I contact about overcrowding of trains?

Any comments relating to overcrowding should be directed to the railway operator. The RSC may additionally be contacted following a situation in which overcrowding led to an unsafe situation.

What is overcrowding?

There are no national or international safety standards regarding the number of passengers that are allowed to travel on a train. Frequently passengers judge overcrowding in terms of comfort, particularly in crush loading situations on suburban trains, though it would be unusual for such conditions to be unsafe. Typically, risk arising from overcrowding does not relate directly to passenger numbers but to secondary impacts such as impairment of effective emergency evacuation.

If you are in a situation where you believe the train you are travelling on to be overcrowded, we suggest that, where possible, a photograph is taken of the level of crowding on the train. This will assist the RSC in investigating the matter.

If you feel a train is overcrowded when it arrives at the platform, you should not board.

The only time trains switch from their allocated sets, is when there is a failure - then the fleet controllers have to rejig the sets around to try and make sure every train operates. They're not lengthening other trains at the expense of Waterford ones.

The budgetary constraints mean that the company don't have large numbers of trains lying around available for immediate use in the event of failures - there is a limited pool of trains available.

LXFlyer · 04-12-2014 10:40PM

Urethra Franklin wrote: »

2900s wouldn't be best for portlaoise commuter. Far too slow. The stopping at every station might seem a lot but the ICRs are actually able to get up to a good speed on that service, which the 29s wouldn't be able to. Also bear in mind they've got to mix with the rest of the ICRs between Hazelhatch and Portlaoise and they've got to keep up the pace... Also sets would be rotated to portlaoise for the depot anyway. It's not as simple as it seems.

As a Waterford line user myself I can't see what the fuss is about? Empty trains and people complain. Full trains and people complain! Most times I see people standing there are seats, they just don't want to sit next to people... I haven't had to stand since the Tall Ships and I'd make a return tourney two or three times a month...

Quite.

Using ICRs on the Portlaoise route, as you correctly observe, is used to get the sets to the maintenance depot there for maintenance and back during the day. They swap at the depot.

So why in God's name would you therefore put 29k sets (there are none spare in the first place) that are slower than the other trains on the route and which could cause unnecessary delays, and which would effectively double the number of trains operating between Dublin and Portlaoise every day, as the ICRs going to/from the depot would now do so out of service?

Absolutely nuts!

Some posters here seem to be incapable of understanding and accepting that Irish Rail simply cannot afford to operate any more trains - they don't have the money. It's that bad. No amount of saying "they should do this and they should do that" is going to change that. They have got to do the best they can with the stock that is in service. That's the bottom line.

end of the road · 04-12-2014 10:48PM

Urethra Franklin wrote: »

2900s wouldn't be best for portlaoise commuter. Far too slow. The stopping at every station might seem a lot but the ICRs are actually able to get up to a good speed on that service, which the 29s wouldn't be able to. Also bear in mind they've got to mix with the rest of the ICRs between Hazelhatch and Portlaoise and they've got to keep up the pace...

i don't agree. 26/8/900s managed fine operating on that line for years, and do in an emergency, so it wouldn't be an issue, considering it would mean stock going to the lines it was bought for and where it is needed to strengthen and eventually grow services hopefully. keeping up the pace is all well and good but when passengers are dangerously crushed on to trains because of lack of carriges, or 29s end up running half way across the country, its proof that the current method needs changing. its not working and never will. any time i've used that commuter service which isn't regular admittedly, it has never gone that fast. it has been rather slow actually. as i said something has to give and 29s coming back on to that line is it, until the country improves and higher speed commuter stock which should have been bought anyway is bought, because crushing people on to intercity style stock unsuitable for standing on this service, while others are left without carriges, or barely get such stock in the first place having to endure 29s half way across the country , is indefensible.

Urethra Franklin wrote: »

Also sets would be rotated to portlaoise for the depot anyway.

taking them out of the way, causing them to effectively double back on themselves if they have come from one of the long distance services, meaning other services suffer. portlaoise might be fine for cheep land, but having a depot there is causing more problems then it is solving, and heads should roll over it, but it won't. again, its not working and needs to change some way or another.

Urethra Franklin wrote: »

It's not as simple as it seems.

no, but if the will is there, this can be sorted. it needs to be

Urethra Franklin wrote: »

As a Waterford line user myself I can't see what the fuss is about? Empty trains and people complain. Full trains and people complain!

well, the amount who see this is an issue are rather a large amount, so i suggest at peak times at least this is a major issue.

Urethra Franklin wrote: »

Most times I see people standing there are seats, they just don't want to sit next to people...

such people are very few. they really are

Urethra Franklin wrote: »

I haven't had to stand since the Tall Ships and I'd make a return tourney two or three times a month...

well you must be very lucky or not traveling at the times effected, or just on a good day. it definitely is an issue though i've no doubt about that.

end of the road · 04-12-2014 10:51PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Well, as I said, if you feel that it is unsafe, contact the Railway Safety Commission at www.rsc.ie, who are the relevant authority responsible.

From their website:

The only time trains switch from their allocated sets, is when there is a failure - then the fleet controllers have to rejig the sets around to try and make sure every train operates. They're not lengthening other trains at the expense of Waterford ones.

The budgetary constraints mean that the company don't have large numbers of trains lying around available for immediate use in the event of failures - there is a limited pool of trains available.

all ICRS are in service though apparently. even if the mark 4s were all returned, i suspect this would still be an issue

Emme · 04-12-2014 10:51PM

I don't know anything about the different types of trains but why is the service dramatically worse on one line than on the others running from the same station? Surely that is not right.

end of the road · 04-12-2014 11:05PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Using ICRs on the Portlaoise route, as you correctly observe, is used to get the sets to the maintenance depot there for maintenance and back during the day. They swap at the depot.

yeah, and as proven, its not working, and its causing more problems then it is worth.

lxflyer wrote: »

So why in God's name would you therefore put 29k sets (there are none spare in the first place) that are slower than the other trains on the route and which could cause unnecessary delays, and which would effectively double the number of trains operating between Dublin and Portlaoise every day, as the ICRs going to/from the depot would now do so out of service?

because it means ICRS going to strengthen the services on long distance services that need strengthening, and will remove 29s operating half way across the country.

lxflyer wrote: »

Absolutely nuts!

not when it means ICRS no longer been stolen from the lines they were bought for. crush loaded intercity stock on unsuitable commuter services, and unsuitable commuter trains which are suitable for the commuter services going half way across the country is even more nuts to be honest.

lxflyer wrote: »

Some posters here seem to be incapable of understanding and accepting that Irish Rail simply cannot afford to operate any more trains - they don't have the money.

we can. but we know such issues will continue even if all carriges are in service. thats the actual reality. only the mark 4s are realistically "stored" with anything else probably for the chop.

lxflyer wrote: »

No amount of saying "they should do this and they should do that" is going to change anything ever.

fixed that for you

Standing on a train from Athy to Dublin

Comments