Standing on a train from Athy to Dublin

Emme

Was anyone listening to yesterday's Liveline? They were primarily discussing water charges but one woman mentioned that her daughter has to stand for an hour on a train from Athy to Dublin, put in a full day's work and travel home again. The train ticket is approximately €3,000 a year. From my observation of people getting on at Athy this woman's daughter is definitely not standing on the train on her own. Indeed she might find it hard to get a standing place on the train. People often faint on the train because it is so crowded.

I know of rail commuters from Portlaoise who have to stand for an hour all the way to Heuston.

How long do other people have to stand on public transport for their daily commute? Does anyone have to stand for more than an hour every day? If so how long?

end of the road

Emme wrote: »

Was anyone listening to yesterday's Liveline? They were primarily discussing water charges but one woman mentioned that her daughter has to stand for an hour on a train from Athy to Dublin, put in a full day's work and travel home again. The train ticket is approximately €3,000 a year. From my observation of people getting on at Athy this woman's daughter is definitely not standing on the train on her own. Indeed she might find it hard to get a standing place on the train. People often faint on the train because it is so crowded.

I know of rail commuters from Portlaoise who have to stand for an hour all the way to Heuston.

How long do other people have to stand on public transport for their daily commute? Does anyone have to stand for more than an hour every day? If so how long?

i have genuine sympathy for all concerned as i know this is an ongoing issue on peak services on both these and the sligo/longford routes.

January

God forbid anyone that has to spend all day on their feet...

patrickc

January wrote: »

God forbid anyone that has to spend all day on their feet...

that's a very helpful post......:rolleyes:

the person might have a very tough job and its nice to relax before/after work standing doesn't allow this. anyway regardless of the job for 3K a year standing IMO is unacceptable up and back everyday.

Sean9015

Emme wrote: »

I know of rail commuters from Portlaoise who have to stand for an hour all the way to Heuston.

I don't know about Athy, but no commuter has to stand the whole from Portlaoise to Heuston or return under normal circumstances - even in the Celtic tiger years with the much lower service level than is in place today. The disrupted service due to the fatality on the line a few weeks back MAY have been an exception.

Cookie_Monster

So commuting from Portlaoise and spending over 3k per year is seen as reasonable in the first place, but having to stand while doing it isn't

Mrs OBumble

It's a new public health measure to combat the obesity epidemic.

(You burn more calories standing than sitting.)

Emme

Sean9015 wrote: »

I don't know about Athy, but no commuter has to stand the whole from Portlaoise to Heuston or return under normal circumstances - even in the Celtic tiger years with the much lower service level than is in place today. The disrupted service due to the fatality on the line a few weeks back MAY have been an exception.

It is common for commuters to stand from Athy to Heuston. During the Celtic Tiger years people often had to wait for the next train (a wait of more than an hour) because trains were so crowded on the Waterford line.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So commuting from Portlaoise and spending over 3k per year is seen as reasonable in the first place, but having to stand while doing it isn't

It is not acceptable to stand for long commutes and the price of an annual ticket (now more than €3K pa from Athy) adds insult to injury. Standing each way on commutes of an hour effectively adds 2 hours to a person's working day.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's a new public health measure to combat the obesity epidemic.

(You burn more calories standing than sitting.)

If Iarnrod Eireann want to combat the obesity epidemic they can start by getting rid of the stodge outlets at train stations. Heuston Station has 5 of these and I'm not including the restaurant, Butlers kiosk or the juice kiosk. If train passengers are obese it is partly due to them eating fast food on the train.

They should also get rid of the Railgourmet trolley on overcrowded trains. As well as selling stodge it blocks up carriages on overcrowded trains, impedes passengers exit from the train and makes finding seats on the train more difficult.

It is not safe to sell hot drinks on overcrowded trains and pungent food makes overcrowded trains even more unpleasant when passengers can't open a window.

One outlet at Heuston station which shall remain nameless sells food that smells like it has been eaten before. If you smelt that muck on a train you would be forgiven for thinking that someone has lost their dinner.

Standing on overcrowded trains every day for long commutes is detrimental to people's health and has a knock on effect on their productivity at work. People who commute long distances to work by train pay handsomely to do so. Most of them don't choose to do long commutes, the high price of accommodation in the city and the lack of rural employment forces them to do so. The current service is not good enough. I can only speak for the Waterford line which is abysmal and not fit for purpose, but a colleague has to stand from Portlaoise to Heuston from time to time.

Judgement Day

OP - you're probably not used to dealing with the cynicism of the C+T Forum. Most of us are seasoned CIE travellers and know that there's little point in complaining to CIE/IE as 'everybody's business is nobody's business'. Perhaps the level of service from Athy will improve when the line is closed south of Kilkenny. Good luck in your efforts.

Cookie_Monster

Emme wrote: »

It is not acceptable to stand for long commutes and the price of an annual ticket (now more than €3K pa from Athy) adds insult to injury.

Says who, you?
so take the bus or drive or move closer or find another job or complain to IE or get an earlier / later train instead if it's such an issue.
That person's daughter, whoever she is, decided to make that ridiculous commute part of her daily life, at the end of the day it's no one's fault but her own.

Emme wrote: »

Standing each way on commutes of an hour effectively adds 2 hours to a person's working day.

no; commuting adds the 2 hours, regardless of how you are doing it.

EganTheMan

I cannot agree with the previous post - how could you possibly say that it's her fault? Not everyone has the choice, as you put it . . .

We should be supporting people who are honest enough to get up and do a day's work as opposed to staying in bed and claiming Social . . .

We all sit, at times, in work and look out and dream about "running away and joining the circus" but we have to live in reality . . .

Terrible reflection on our infrastructure . . . I wonder will Paul Murphy & Co. speak up for her or does the fact that she work make her of no interest to his cohort?

foggy_lad

The situation on the Waterford-Dublin route should improve when the new Dublin Coach express bus service starts, I have heard it will be Dublin City Centre-Waterford stopping only in Kilkenny and at the red cow luas stop(for connections to the airport). A licence has been issued for an inter urban express service Waterford-Dublin.

Roxirose

On occasion I have gotten the Waterford train from heuston as far as Kildare. Yes, it seems to be constantly overcrowded. I saw a pregnant lady left standing as far as Kildare today.
However I can say nobody has to stand all the way from portlaoise to heuston or vice versa, in my experience.

Emme

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Says who, you?
so take the bus or drive or move closer or find another job or complain to IE or get an earlier / later train instead if it's such an issue.

I already said that most people in the commuter belt cannot afford to move closer and there are very few jobs in rural Ireland.

People have complained to IE and got nowhere.

The earlier and later trains are equally crowded.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

That person's daughter, whoever she is, decided to make that ridiculous commute part of her daily life, at the end of the day it's no one's fault but her own.

If that person's daughter wanted a home for her family they might not have been able to afford anything closer to Dublin than Athy. She has chosen to work to put food on the table for her family. This may be her fault as you say but at least she's getting off her butt and doing something to support her family.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no commuting adds the 2 hours, regardless of how you are doing it.

Person A and Person B do the same job in the same company working an 8 hour day (they have a nice boss who doesn't ask them to do overtime). Person A lives in Dublin and walk or cycle 20 minutes to work. Person B commutes by train to work and their commute takes 1 hour and 20 minutes.

Person A's working day is 8 hours and 40 minutes including commuting time. Person B's working day is 10 hours and 40 minutes including commuting time. 2 hours more than Person A. If Person B cannot get a seat on the train they cannot read or sleep on the journey to or from work and will be more tired at the end of the day.

foggy_lad wrote: »

The situation on the Waterford-Dublin route should improve when the new Dublin Coach express bus service starts, I have heard it will be Dublin-Waterford stopping only in Kilkenny and at the red cow luas stop(for connections to the airport). A licence has been issued for an inter urban express service Waterford-Dublin.

Foggy, they will probably cut carriages off the Waterford train when the Dublin Coach express bus service starts and people will still be packed in like sardines.

Roxirose wrote: »

On occasion I have gotten the Waterford train from heuston as far as Kildare. Yes, it seems to be constantly overcrowded. I saw a pregnant lady left standing as far as Kildare today.

Sadly this is not unusual. When the Waterford train platform is announced at Heuston there is always a stampede to get a seat. No matter what time people travel the trains are always overcrowded.

EganTheMan

Here here

or as they say on Boards

+1

:-)

Sean9015

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So commuting from Portlaoise and spending over 3k per year is seen as reasonable in the first place, but having to stand while doing it isn't

EURO3k for year from Portlaoise? Yes, I think that's OK. Bedford - London (same distance) is STG4,300 for a line with much greater demand (and crowding issues). However, my comment was aimed at the standing from Portlaoise issue - under normal circumstances it simply does not happen.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

An hour commute really isn't that much to all those saying she shouldn't have moved to athy. I think the Irish have this mentality that we have to live within 30 minutes or less of work or else you are ruining your life. Mad attitude for such a small country.

Sean9015

Emme wrote: »

Person A and Person B do the same job in the same company working an 8 hour day (they have a nice boss who doesn't ask them to do overtime). Person A lives in Dublin and walk or cycle 20 minutes to work. Person B commutes by train to work and their commute takes 1 hour and 20 minutes.

Person A's working day is 8 hours and 40 minutes including commuting time. Person B's working day is 10 hours and 40 minutes including commuting time. 2 hours more than Person A. If Person B cannot get a seat on the train they cannot read or sleep on the journey to or from work and will be more tired at the end of the day.

But the point was being made that person B in your example will be more tired than person A whether they are standing or sitting. I used to commute from Portlaoise daily - at first it was hard, but you get used to it after a while.

If you want a guaranteed seat, here is the other option:

http://www.jjkavanagh.ie/images/events/Clonmel-Dublin%20Timetable2012.pdf

Of course, its slower, so you spend even longer commuting, but that's the trade off.

Into The Blue

Not sure if January is interested in debating this or just popped in yesterday for the one smart comment, but It isn't just standing, it's constant shifting to keep your balance, trying to hang on with one hand while holding your gear..

Far more draining than just standing on the path for an hour.

foggy_lad

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

An hour commute really isn't that much to all those saying she shouldn't have moved to athy. I think the Irish have this mentality that we have to live within 30 minutes or less of work or else you are ruining your life. Mad attitude for such a small country.

It is not a long commute if you live in london or some large city of several million people but for Dublin it is a long train journey, hopefully more improvements to track and signalling will speed this up over the next few years.

Hilly Bill

Sean9015 wrote: »

EURO3k for year from Portlaoise? Yes, I think that's OK. Bedford - London (same distance) is STG4,300 for a line with much greater demand (and crowding issues). However, my comment was aimed at the standing from Portlaoise issue - under normal circumstances it simply does not happen.

€8 a day is alright.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is not a long commute if you live in london or some large city of several million people but for Dublin it is a long train journey, hopefully more improvements to track and signalling will speed this up over the next few years.

A 1 hour commute is the same regardless of what city its in .

Aard

Averge commute times in Dublin are 28 minutes according to the CSO. Commutes over an hour are unusual.

Emme

Aard wrote: »

Averge commute times in Dublin are 28 minutes according to the CSO. Commutes over an hour are unusual.

If the average commute time is 28 minutes there is something wrong with the transport system when people who commute for an hour or more have to stand for the entire journey.

Aard

I'm not sure that that statement is logical. I don't think it's possible to draw a correlation or relationship between commute times and propensity for having to stand.

Cookie_Monster

Aard wrote: »

I'm not sure that that statement is logical. I don't think it's possible to draw a correlation or relationship between commute times and propensity for having to stand.

the more I stand the shorter my commute time

elastico

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

An hour commute really isn't that much to all those saying she shouldn't have moved to athy. I think the Irish have this mentality that we have to live within 30 minutes or less of work or else you are ruining your life. Mad attitude for such a small country.

I think the small country bit is the point though. With proper planning 50 years ago all the industrial estates, call centres etc. would have been built outside the M50 with another ring motorway 10 miles outside that again, so places like Newbridge and Kildare would be short commutes to the main centres of employment, reducing the pressure on everything.

Aard

^ I wouldn't call that "proper planning" tbh

Anyway, we had the opportunity with the Buchanan report in the 60s... Blame "balanced regional development"!

_Kaiser_

elastico wrote: »

I think the small country bit is the point though. With proper planning 50 years ago all the industrial estates, call centres etc. would have been built outside the M50 with another ring motorway 10 miles outside that again, so places like Newbridge and Kildare would be short commutes to the main centres of employment, reducing the pressure on everything.

No, what's needed is for people to get over the obsession with owning a semi-D regardless of where it is or how impractical it may be, coupled with a reform of the rental sector and building up in Dublin not out.

Proper European-sized, family friendly apartments are the answer here not some new wave of "decentralisation" or adding more trains or buses to facilitate commuting that would/should ultimately be unnecessary - especially as many of the workers in these industrial estates and call centres are young, mobile non-nationals who will likely move on again in a (relatively) short timeframe - assuming their employer doesn't beat them to it!

road_high

foggy_lad wrote: »

The situation on the Waterford-Dublin route should improve when the new Dublin Coach express bus service starts, I have heard it will be Dublin City Centre-Waterford stopping only in Kilkenny and at the red cow luas stop(for connections to the airport). A licence has been issued for an inter urban express service Waterford-Dublin.

Hey there. Any idea when this may start? Sorely needed on the M9 and should do very well indeed with good journey times. Assume Carlow would be on the planned stops as well to boost loading.

lazeedaisy

I did that commute for years, never saw anyone standing going to Dublin from Athy, it was a very early Train, and I know another train was put on the route since I stopped, as for it being an hour commute, it was half that again on a god day,

Friday afternoons the trains were always packed but you got a seat if you got there on time.

end of the road

lazeedaisy wrote: »

I did that commute for years, never saw anyone standing going to Dublin from Athy, it was a very early Train, and I know another train was put on the route since I stopped, as for it being an hour commute, it was half that again on a god day,

Friday afternoons the trains were always packed but you got a seat if you got there on time.

unfortunately the trains have also got shorter, at least some of them. i believe the waterford line is a problem line when it comes to short trains, having a lot of them. but i'm open to correction

foggy_lad

road_high wrote: »

Hey there. Any idea when this may start? Sorely needed on the M9 and should do very well indeed with good journey times. Assume Carlow would be on the planned stops as well to boost loading.

looks like they are after the passengers from Waterford and Kilkenny only, or maybe that was a condition of the licence?

evo2000

patrickc wrote: »

that's a very helpful post......:rolleyes:

the person might have a very tough job and its nice to relax before/after work standing doesn't allow this. anyway regardless of the job for 3K a year standing IMO is unacceptable up and back everyday.

Such is the price you pay for riding the peasant wagons!

Emme

end of the road wrote: »

unfortunately the trains have also got shorter, at least some of them. i believe the waterford line is a problem line when it comes to short trains, having a lot of them. but i'm open to correction

I agree and it is a dangerous situation. Irish Rail fobs passengers off with excuses about short platforms but that is no reason for the majority of trains on the Waterford line to be 5 cars or in most cases, 4 cars or fewer.

The 15.10 Heuston-Waterford today was a 4 car train. About 80% of the seats on this train were booked either by groups or individuals. There was so little standing room that people were left behind at Heuston. They would have had to wait over an hour for the next train. If so many seats had been booked on this train Irish Rail should have had the sense to make this train a 6 car and not a 4 car. Even if the train had been a 6 car people would have had to stand but not so many people would have been left behind at Heuston.

It was a very unpleasant journey for most people on the train except for those who barged their way past the standees to their booked seats. One large group didn't even arrive until 2 minutes before departure! There wasn't enough room on the luggage racks for this group's cases so they put them on the floor beside their seats forcing standees to bunch together even more.

The very young, the very old, mothers with babies and the physically impaired were left without seats on this train. Disgraceful. People were crammed like sardines and standing in the aisles as far as Carlow if not beyond.

Two security guards got on at Newbridge, I don't know why but perhaps a scuffle had broken out between some of the people who were unceremoniously crammed together.

This train was so crowded it must have been in breach of health and safety regulations. In the event of an emergency people would not have been able to get out of the train.

Aard

Maybe the answer is to book a seat?

Emme

Aard wrote: »

Maybe the answer is to book a seat?

I pay over €3,000 for an annual commuter ticket as do many others. Why should we have to book a seat in order to sit on a train?

Commuter trains are not designed to safely accommodate a large number of standees. The Luas is designed to accommodate standees and I have no problem standing on the Luas.

eejoynt

Boards is for entertainment, not for dealing with the real world.
Contact gerry murphy of the national transportation authority, along the following lines

I had to stand in a four coach train today, the waterford line needs five car trains to be as standard. This could be done if ICRs were withdrawn from the cork line services, and the mark 4 coaches which are stored in inchicore were reinstated to cork line services

Copy to your TDs and MEPs

end of the road

Emme wrote: »

Commuter trains are not designed to safely accommodate a large number of standees.

not meaning to be pedantic, but commuter trains are designed to safely accommodate a large number of standees. the train you get is an intercity railcar which is designed for proper long distance work, but not for carrying large amounts of standing passengers. both unfortunately are interchanged, meaning intercity railcars will run short distance high capacity high density commuter services, and a commuter railcar long distance services, where they are apart from the odd exceptional circumstance overkill.

end of the road

eejoynt wrote: »

Boards is for entertainment, not for dealing with the real world.
Contact gerry murphy of the national transportation authority, along the following lines

I had to stand in a four coach train today, the waterford line needs five car trains to be as standard. This could be done if ICRs were withdrawn from the cork line services, and the mark 4 coaches which are stored in inchicore were reinstated to cork line services

Copy to your TDs and MEPs

i'd agree with and would second this, all though i suspect you shouldn't expect anything to be done. but do it anyway, you never know.

Jamie2k9

Emme wrote: »

I agree and it is a dangerous situation. Irish Rail fobs passengers off with excuses about short platforms but that is no reason for the majority of trains on the Waterford line to be 5 cars or in most cases, 4 cars or fewer.

The 15.10 Heuston-Waterford today was a 4 car train. About 80% of the seats on this train were booked either by groups or individuals. There was so little standing room that people were left behind at Heuston. They would have had to wait over an hour for the next train. If so many seats had been booked on this train Irish Rail should have had the sense to make this train a 6 car and not a 4 car. Even if the train had been a 6 car people would have had to stand but not so many people would have been left behind at Heuston.

It was a very unpleasant journey for most people on the train except for those who barged their way past the standees to their booked seats. One large group didn't even arrive until 2 minutes before departure! There wasn't enough room on the luggage racks for this group's cases so they put them on the floor beside their seats forcing standees to bunch together even more.

The very young, the very old, mothers with babies and the physically impaired were left without seats on this train. Disgraceful. People were crammed like sardines and standing in the aisles as far as Carlow if not beyond.

Two security guards got on at Newbridge, I don't know why but perhaps a scuffle had broken out between some of the people who were unceremoniously crammed together.

This train was so crowded it must have been in breach of health and safety regulations. In the event of an emergency people would not have been able to get out of the train.

Email the NTA, expect major problems Sunday afternoon to towards Dublin. Understand you won't be the first.

paddyland

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Says who, you?
so take the bus or drive or move closer or find another job or complain to IE or get an earlier / later train instead if it's such an issue.
That person's daughter, whoever she is, decided to make that ridiculous commute part of her daily life, at the end of the day it's no one's fault but her own.

This forum just descends further into the gutter.

foggy_lad

The security guards are to control the stag parties drinking on the train! There were two on the galway train on Friday afternoon and one of the 7 cars was off limits to normal sane people.

As for the Waterford line nothing will change any time soon! It is one of the poorer lines in terms of revenue over costs and will be run on a shoestring until it is decided to close it. They will claim to have extra services on a Friday and Saturday afternoon from waterford but these trains would be running anyway only empty and at a later time. They are probably saving money on driver overtime by running them in service. These services are also not advertised and not used much as they are after the peak Friday times! Most stag parties and students travel earlier so those early afternoon trains from Dublin need to be 6car trains!

BOHtox

What is the future for trains in this country? Are there plans to increase capacity or invest in more tracks?

fr336

January wrote: »

God forbid anyone that has to spend all day on their feet...

Well anyone standing or in any way uncomfortable can pay a far cheaper fare Fair enough for the capitalists?

Aard

BOHtox wrote: »

What is the future for trains in this country? Are there plans to increase capacity or invest in more tracks?

http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/rail-vision-2030

Emme

foggy_lad wrote: »

The security guards are to control the stag parties drinking on the train! There were two on the galway train on Friday afternoon and one of the 7 cars was off limits to normal sane people.

As for the Waterford line nothing will change any time soon! It is one of the poorer lines in terms of revenue over costs and will be run on a shoestring until it is decided to close it. They will claim to have extra services on a Friday and Saturday afternoon from Dublin but these trains would be running anyway only empty and at a later time. They are probably saving money on driver overtime by running them in service. These services are also not advertised and not used much as they are after the peak Friday times! Most stag parties and students travel earlier so those early afternoon trains from Dublin need to be 6car trains!

The Waterford line takes in so little revenue because the service is so poor and a fair few passengers travel on free passes. I'm not just talking about the over 65s.

It's disgraceful to force ordinary passengers to stand, many of these regulars, while pandering to drunken stag parties. If they do block off one car on a train that is normally 4 cars they should put on extra cars to compensate.

People use the Waterford line to commute to work from towns such as Carlow and Athy and many students travel daily to Carlow college by train. Students travel to and from Athy to get to secondary school.

They shouldn't close the Waterford line altogether. Leave it open to Kilkenny or if it's as bad as you say, Carlow. Not everyone from Carlow, Kilkenny or Athy has the option of driving to Dublin on the M9/M7.

end of the road

Emme wrote: »

The Waterford line takes in so little revenue because the service is so poor

exactly. why those in charge of running and funding the railways can't grasp this i'l never know. it has the unfortunate problem of being in the southeast so no doubt that doesn't help it.

They shouldn't close the Waterford line altogether. Leave it open to Kilkenny or if it's as bad as you say, Carlow. Not everyone from Carlow, Kilkenny or Athy has the option of driving to Dublin on the M9/M7.[/QUOTE]

they shouldn't be closing any part of it at all in fairness. it would achieve nothing (apart from proving me and others right)

Jamie2k9

As for the Waterford line nothing will change any time soon! It is one of the poorer lines in terms of revenue over costs and will be run on a shoestring until it is decided to close it. They will claim to have extra services on a Friday and Saturday afternoon from Dublin but these trains would be running anyway only empty and at a later time. They are probably saving money on driver overtime by running them in service. These services are also not advertised and not used much as they are after the peak Friday times! Most stag parties and students travel earlier so those early afternoon trains from Dublin need to be 6car trains!

Its debatable to be honest. Students traveling to Waterford is just if not more profitable than Galway etc. However the real question is why a second train was not scheduled last Friday. They have no problem scheduling a 14.40 ex Galway so there is no excuses.

If DublinCoach launch the express service they will destroy Irish Rail.

purplecow1977

January wrote: »

God forbid anyone that has to spend all day on their feet...

Is that meant to be a smart arse comment?
Why should someone be expected to stand up on their commute?
What if they have a job that involves standing all day?
I teach - I am on my feet all day, and I would loath having to stand for an hour before and after work also.


What an insensitive comment to make in the search for thanks.

Aren't those sorts called 'thanks whores'?

What are the solutions? Extra trains?

end of the road

freeing up the ICRS from the portlaoise heuston commuter services would help a hell of a lot. no chance of that though