Standing on a train from Athy to Dublin

end of the road

TINA1984 wrote: »

The OP and the other poster I quoted seem to think that if you're getting on at Athy on a peak hour train they should be guaranteed a seat

no they don't. they believe that they're should be enough carriges on the train to ensure overcrowding is at a minimum. as the stock operating athy services originates from waterford and is intercity stock designed for long distance services and have the basics that such services are entitled to, and aren't designed for large amounts of standing room, making sure they're is enough carriges to make such overcrowding a bit barible is a must. the real commuter stock designed for short distance high capacity high density services which is designed for standing room but isn't designed for long distance services isn't an option on waterford services, so again ensuring they're are a good few carriges on the train is a must.

TINA1984 wrote: »

anywhere in the western world if you're getting on a peak hour train in the commuter belt of a big city it's to be expected you're going to stand in a cramped environment.

cramped environment yes. crammed with little room to breathe, not so much unless the infrastructure is completely maxed out and can't be extended. were nothing near that. the rest of the world also has enough rolling stock and frequency to almost deal with this problem, ireland operates short trains where longer are needed, effecting the waterford line and towns like athy. such overcrowding is unnecessary as we have plenty of rolling stock.

TINA1984 wrote: »

It's not ideal but it'll do.

ah the old irish mentality of, shur til be grand, shur til do. until more customers leave. it will do for you, but for those who have left because of it, it won't. IE can't afford for customers to be leaving. you have no deffence for this

drumswan

Strange attitude, people buy houses 80kms from their jobs and expect "the government" to build infrastructure to deliver them to the city daily in perfect comfort. Thats not how the world works.

end of the road

drumswan wrote: »

Strange attitude, people buy houses 80kms from their jobs and expect "the government" to build infrastructure to deliver them to the city daily in perfect comfort. Thats not how the world works.

they don't. they expect our rail infrastructure and rolling stock to be used to its full potential to try help alleviate severe problems on severely overcrowded services by. having a good few carriges per train at peak times, operate extra services to the suburbs and outer towns only at peak times to ensure those traveling on the longer distance services can get on.

mickydoomsux

Dublin IE staff call all of the Dublin-Waterford services "The Social Welfare Express".

Make of that what you will.

TINA1984

Emme wrote: »

It takes an hour to get from Athy to Dublin by train. Do you really think it is satisfactory for people to stand two hours a day while travelling to work? If people do this long term their health suffers.

I don't mind standing on the Luas because it is equipped for standees. The Waterford train is not. It isn't a matter of people.standing between carriages and looking out the window at leisure. People are crammed in the aisles of carriages and have to push in on top of seated passengers to let people out of the train.

It isn't just peak trains that are overcrowded on the Waterford line. It is difficult.to get a seat on ANY train from Athy to Dublin.

As mentioned, it's common for commuter trains at peak times in other big cities to be overcrowded. I just don't see how the Waterford line is any different to say, the Bedford line in London at rush hour, which is also approximately an hour long journey, its cramped standing room only on them too.

end of the road wrote: »

as the stock operating athy services originates from waterford and is intercity stock designed for long distance services....

This is the crux of the matter, the Waterford line may be branded Intercity but it's profile is very much one of a commuter line.

end of the road wrote: »

...the rest of the world also has enough rolling stock and frequency to almost deal with this problem...

Except of course this isn't the case, overcrowding and standing room only at rush hour is common on many commuter routes into big cities in the UK and beyond.

end of the road wrote: »

ah the old irish mentality of, shur til be grand, shur til do. until more customers leave. it will do for you, but for those who have left because of it, it won't. IE can't afford for customers to be leaving. you have no deffence for this

Yes, this seems to be your stock response to anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint.

end of the road

TINA1984 wrote: »

As mentioned, it's common for commuter trains at peak times in other big cities to be overcrowded. I just don't see how the Waterford line is any different to say, the Bedford line in London at rush hour, which is also approximately an hour long journey, its cramped standing room only on them too.

waterford is 2 hours or more. we are not like england. comparing waterford to the Bedford line is pointless. whats exceptable in britain where taking the train is very necessary is a lot different to ireland where they're is more of a choice and people expect more for their money. and actually, nonsense like short trains where longer are needed is something from britain that we don't want.

TINA1984 wrote: »

This is the crux of the matter, the Waterford line may be branded Intercity but it's profile is very much one of a commuter line.

doesn't matter what its profile is, in an irish context its a long distance, or intercity line. whatever its traffic. in this country, anything over 2 hours is classed as long distance meaning it gets stock with the comfort levels of such a journey. comfort. simply making sure they're are enough carriges on the trains would help alleviate this problem. the stock specked for commuter services (which in an irish context are) dublin maynooth, dublin kildare/portlaoise, dublin droghida/dundalk, cork cobh/midleton would be overkill and those who do happen to get a seat on lines such as waterford expect something for their money including comfort if they get a seat. we are not like england where anything goes.

TINA1984 wrote: »

Except of course this isn't the case, overcrowding and standing room only at rush hour is common on many commuter routes into big cities in the UK and beyond.

yeah, but apart from parts of the UK and ireland, they're is enough stock and frequency to help deal with this problem. waterford is not a commuter route in an irish context, which is all that matters here.

TINA1984 wrote: »

Yes, this seems to be your stock response to anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint.

no it isn't. any time you have come on rail related threads, and i see your view has some problems, i as someone who knows about our railway has taken the time to explained to you why your view may not work when an issue is easily sorted. but you don't seem to want to hear it for some reason, and make out its all fine when it clearly isn't.

TINA1984

end of the road wrote: »

...waterford is 2 hours or more. we are not like england. comparing waterford to the Bedford line is pointless. ....

Bedford is a perfectly acceptable example in relation to Emme's Athy conundrum. A 1hr journey from a commuter town into a big city where standing is agiven during rush hour. Sound familiar?

And we are like England, and everywhere else with railways, the closer to a bigger urban area, the more passenger traffic there is going to be in the commuter towns, with resultant standing. The Waterford line is not a unicorn!

end of the road wrote: »

doesn't matter what its profile is, in an irish context its a long distance, or intercity line...waterford is not a commuter route in an irish context, which is all that matters here.

Except it does, most of the traffic, and presumably revenue, on the line comes from the northern section which lies squarely within the Dublin commuter belt.

end of the road wrote: »

no it isn't. any time you have come on rail related threads, and i see your view has some problems, i as someone who knows about our railway has taken the time to explained to you why your view may not work when an issue is easily sorted. but you don't seem to want to hear it for some reason, and make out its all fine when it clearly isn't.

What's your CV then? Have you worked on the railways? are you a transport consultant? Show us your medals...

end of the road

TINA1984 wrote: »

Bedford is a perfectly acceptable example in relation to Emme's Athy conundrum. A 1hr journey from a commuter town into a big city where standing is agiven during rush hour. Sound familiar?

as maybe, but in ireland the whole line is counted and whats best for it as a whole. thats how we do things over here, especially as they're is competition from other alternatives that are just as easy to access as the train. athy is still part of the waterford line, which is an intercity line in an irish context, operated by intercity stock and will continue to be, hence extra carriges are the best way forward for this line rather then suburban stock designed for short distances. if they decide to put on extra athy only services, which i'm sure would be welcomed, then such suburban stock might be fine, but not for the whole journey to waterford.

TINA1984 wrote: »

we are like England, and everywhere else with railways, the closer to a bigger urban area, the more passenger traffic there is going to be in the commuter towns, with resultant standing. The Waterford line is not a unicorn!

yes, but athy is still part of an intercity line. not going to change. we are not like england. some of the nonsense that goes on on the railways over there wouldn't be tolerated here.

TINA1984 wrote: »

Except it does

it doesn't

TINA1984 wrote: »

most of the traffic, and presumably revenue, on the line comes from the northern section which lies squarely within the Dublin commuter belt.

yeah. like all the network. however waterford like all services that travel from dublin down the country is classed as intercity by the company running it, regional might be better, but long distance speck stock is best for those services as a whole, with extra commuter only services to the towns outside the belt such as athy suplamenting them. in this country, distance decides the type of stock. traffic decides the amount of carriges in theory. its just irish rail now who need to make sure they're is enough carriges for severely overcrowded services.

TINA1984 wrote: »

What's your CV then? Have you worked on the railways? are you a transport consultant? Show us your medals...

whats yours. not listening to those who use and know about the irish railway. you don't need to be a consultant or a railway worker to know about the irish rail network and how it operates. for what its worth, i've been a rail user for almost 20 years. i know a lot about the network, and rolling stock also. of course its not good enough for you obviously but frankly i don't care.

Emme

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Dublin IE staff call all of the Dublin-Waterford services "The Social Welfare Express".

Make of that what you will.

Really? If that's the case why do you take €3,000 and more from commuters who purchase annual tickets to travel on what you call "The Social Welfare Express"? The name is also very insulting to OAPs and former tax payers who now travel free having paid for everything all their working lives.

By the way, the phrase "Dublin-Waterford services" is an oxymoron.

mickydoomsux

Emme wrote: »

Really? If that's the case why do you take €3,000 and more from commuters who purchase annual tickets to travel on what you call "The Social Welfare Express"?

Someone has to pay for it.

Emme

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Someone has to pay for it.

If that's the case then paying passengers should be guaranteed a seat every time they travel. Let everyone else stand. Seriously, the attitude to the Waterford line is appalling. What about the other train lines - do they not have social welfare passengers as well?

If the Dublin-Waterford service ran longer trains (longer than 4 cars :rolleyes:) and ran at more regular intervals you would get more paying passengers.

TINA1984 wrote: »

Bedford is a perfectly acceptable example in relation to Emme's Athy conundrum. A 1hr journey from a commuter town into a big city where standing is agiven during rush hour. Sound familiar?

Standing is a given on the Waterford train regardless of whether it's rush hour or not. If all passengers travelling an hour on Irish Rail had to stand you might have a point but the Waterford line seems to be worse affected than the other lines.

foggy_lad

TINA1984 wrote: »

Commuters across the world stand on their commute, and they expect it, Ireland should be no different.

Indeed and most are standing in trains designed to carrt large numbers of standing passengers, the 22000s are not designed to carry standing passengers or they would be fitted out with grab rails and proper grab handles on the tops of the seats as well as having all the superfluous internal stuff taken out to make more room for cramming more people in!

end of the road wrote: »

agree, but of course the stupidity of having rail care depots so far out of the way and maintaining 1 type of unit out of each depot means customers will suffer. best thing that can happen is that something forces both portlaoise and droghida depots to shut and the lot return to dublin. a megga depot when DU is built to take care of everything.

It would be better to move everything out to Portlaoise but the cost of redeploying so many CIE/IR board employees would surely bankrupt the company.

TINA1984 wrote: »

The OP and the other poster I quoted seem to think that if you're getting on at Athy on a peak hour train they should be guaranteed a seat, anywhere in the western world if you're getting on a peak hour train in the commuter belt of a big city it's to be expected you're going to stand in a cramped environment. It's not ideal but it'll do.

Dublin is a small city compared to cities like Birmingham or Manchester so no point comparing it to other larger cities in the UK.

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Dublin IE staff call all of the Dublin-Waterford services "The Social Welfare Express".

Make of that what you will.

To me that says more about those members of staff than the passengers they are referring to.

TINA1984 wrote: »

As mentioned, it's common for commuter trains at peak times in other big cities to be overcrowded. I just don't see how the Waterford line is any different to say, the Bedford line in London at rush hour, which is also approximately an hour long journey, its cramped standing room only on them too.

Again Dublin is a very small city compared to most UK cities, it just does not have the population density to support what the UK call commuter rail.

This is the crux of the matter, the Waterford line may be branded Intercity but it's profile is very much one of a commuter line.

Maybe a commuter service to Carlow but there are very few daily commuters from further along than Carlow. It is mostly students going to/from Colleges on Fridays and Sundays.

Except of course this isn't the case, overcrowding and standing room only at rush hour is common on many commuter routes into big cities in the UK and beyond.

There are no cities big enough in Ireland to compare with the UK's larger cities and their smaller cities were mostly rebuilt after WW2 and benefit from proper town planning and transport infrastructure that is integrated a lot better than will ever be possible in any Irish city.

Cookie_Monster

Emme wrote: »

It takes an hour to get from Athy to Dublin by train. Do you really think it is satisfactory for people to stand two hours a day while travelling to work? If people do this long term their health suffers.

Many Dublin Bus Journeys take longer than an hour, people have to stand. Many DART journeys last more than an hour, people have to stand. I'd even wager there are Cork bus services in the same situation. What's the difference between these areas and Athy that those people should somehow get priority of stock to ensure they don't have to stand?
never mind every single other major urban area in the world. It's just a fact of rush hour commuting...

paddyland

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Many Dublin Bus Journeys take longer than an hour, people have to stand. Many DART journeys last more than an hour, people have to stand. I'd even wager there are Cork bus services in the same situation. What's the difference between these areas and Athy that those people should somehow get priority of stock to ensure they don't have to stand?
never mind every single other major urban area in the world. It's just a fact of rush hour commuting...

Because the rolling stock is not designed for crush loading. A few standing, surely. But not the jam packed loading it is currently experiencing. There is public transport designed for standee loading, and public transport not designed for it.

You're the guy who stated a few years ago that people should have the right of way to trespass on railway lines, as they would 'hear' the train coming. How would you feel about a crush-loaded train from Athy having to hit the brakes because somebody, or anything, was walking on the line? I suppose that's perfectly acceptable in your alternative universe too?

I don't know why anyone even bothers to engage you.

Jamie2k9

Cookie_Monster

While the threat says Athy, people have to spend 90 minutes standing often. Dublin-Kilkenny. While I agree in principal the fact remains people traveling to Cork and Limerick would not be left standing until Limerick Junction.

Could be wrong but IE rolled out a Mark IV last Friday morning for Michael D. Nothing stopping them doing the same Friday afternoon for the regular customers is there?

Emme

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Cookie_Monster

While the threat says Athy, people have to spend 90 minutes standing often. Dublin-Kilkenny. While I agree in principal the fact remains people traveling to Cork and Limerick would not be left standing until Limerick Junction.

Could be wrong but IE rolled out a Mark IV last Friday morning for Michael D. Nothing stopping them doing the same Friday afternoon for the regular customers is there?

I don't begrudge this to Michael D - tá sé go híontach! A man of his stature would suffocate on a standard crush loaded Waterford train

monument

paddyland wrote: »

You're the guy who stated a few years ago that people should have the right of way to trespass on railway lines, as they would 'hear' the train coming. How would you feel about a crush-loaded train from Athy having to hit the brakes because somebody, or anything, was walking on the line? I suppose that's perfectly acceptable in your alternative universe too?

I don't know why anyone even bothers to engage you.

If your post does not count as the flamewars end of trolling, I don't know what does. It's also off-topic, generally disruptive and overly focused on attacking the user and not his post.

Do not make this claim again (namely, the one I've highlighted in bold), the poster. Do not claim a poster has any view which they have already refuted without at least bringing the refutation into it. Do not bring arguments about one thing in other thread into another thread with at best a tentative link.

-- Moderator

cython

On a lighter but vaguely relevant note, I thought this typo/auto-correct error by Irish Rail was rather fitting to the discussion here:

TINA1984

end of the road wrote: »

whats yours. not listening to those who use and know about the irish railway. you don't need to be a consultant or a railway worker to know about the irish rail network and how it operates. for what its worth, i've been a rail user for almost 20 years. i know a lot about the network, and rolling stock also. of course its not good enough for you obviously but frankly i don't care.

So in otherwords, you're bluffing? Your vaunted knowledge of the railways is that of the man on the street.

TINA1984

foggy_lad wrote: »

......
Dublin is a small city compared to cities like Birmingham or Manchester so no point comparing it to other larger cities in the UK.

To me that says more about those members of staff than the passengers they are referring to.

Again Dublin is a very small city compared to most UK cities, it just does not have the population density to support what the UK call commuter rail.

....

There are no cities big enough in Ireland to compare with the UK's larger cities and their smaller cities were mostly rebuilt after WW2 and benefit from proper town planning and transport infrastructure that is integrated a lot better than will ever be possible in any Irish city.

There's nearly 2 million people in the Greater Dublin area & well over a million people in the Metro Dublin area. To say this isn't comparable to major urban areas in the UK simply isn't true. Though granted the population densities can be low in comparison to the UK.

s8080

TINA1984 wrote: »

So in otherwords, you're bluffing? Your vaunted knowledge of the railways is that of the man on the street.

you have hit the nail on the head.
a CIE worker will come on here and tell you what happened and why.
some posters will refuse to believe because they have superior knowledge of what happen because they travel on a CIE service.
no matter what is pointed out to them, they refuse to accept the truth.

They are like those fools who phone into the FM104 phone show late at night, completely ignorant of facts, but 100% certain they are correct.
They are only good for a laugh, you are wasting your time trying to engage with them, they are happy in their ignorance.

Emme

TINA1984 wrote: »

So in otherwords, you're bluffing? Your vaunted knowledge of the railways is that of the man on the street.

Tina do you work for Iarnrod Eireann? If so could you please explain what the problem is. Also would you be willing to travel indefinitely on a crush packed train standing for 2 hours a day or more? The people who do this don't do it by choice. They do it because they have no other transport options, they cannot find work locally and they cannot afford to live nearer their workplace.

The rail system in the UK may be worse than Ireland but that does not mean Irish Rail should treat passengers badly. Two wrongs do not make a right.

In the past I have fallen on a crush packed train and been trampled before people could help me up. Luckily I wasn't injured but it was very frightening at the time. Irish Rail ignored my complaints. Please do not tell me this is normal and passengers/the Irish taxpayer should be happy to accept it in return for their hard earned money.

The people who are posting here in defence of Irish Rail are either sporadic train travellers or else they are connected to Irish Rail or the government in some way.

s8080 wrote: »

you have hit the nail on the head.
a CIE worker will come on here and tell you what happened and why.
some posters will refuse to believe because they have superior knowledge of what happen because they travel on a CIE service.
no matter what is pointed out to them, they refuse to accept the truth.

A CIE worker? I would need a time machine to find one of those. In the days of CIE the service was not as bad as it is now and there were not as many people who did long rail commutes to work.

s8080 wrote: »

They are like those fools who phone into the FM104 phone show late at night, completely ignorant of facts, but 100% certain they are correct.

I do not work in the offices of Irish Rail so I do not know their administrative plans or how train routes are scheduled for the day. All I know is that I pay a hefty sum for an annual ticket and I am not getting value for money because the service is abysmal. People are putting their health at risk travelling in the conditions on the Waterford train.

s8080 wrote: »

They are only good for a laugh, you are wasting your time trying to engage with them, they are happy in their ignorance.

You travel on a crush loaded train standing two hours a day for a year or more and tell me it's good for a laugh. Especially if you have to pay a hefty sum to do so.

s8080

has it ever occured to you CIE are not allowed to increase services?
which private bus companies operate along this train route to dublin?

end of the road

s8080 wrote: »

has it ever occured to you CIE are not allowed to increase services?
which private bus companies operate along this train route to dublin?

who's stopping them apart from funding.

Emme

s8080 wrote: »

has it ever occured to you CIE are not allowed to increase services?
which private bus companies operate along this train route to dublin?

What have private bus companies got to do with it?

I understand Iarnrod Eireann do not have the money to increase services across the board but their policy seems to be to run one line into the ground (the Waterford line) by sporadically cutting 5 and 6 car trains to 3 and 4 cars. A typical example was last Thursday. If several groups book seats and carriages on a 5 or 6 car train and IE cut it to 4 cars there will be trouble. This happens more on the Waterford line than on other lines.

IE seem to WANT paying passengers on the Waterford line to defect to private buses so they will have an excuse to close the Waterford line altogether. This means stations from Athy to Waterford would be closed and jobs lost. Really progressive thinking :rolleyes:

end of the road

TINA1984 wrote: »

So in otherwords, you're bluffing? Your vaunted knowledge of the railways is that of the man on the street.

wrong, i know a hell of a lot more. but yeah, if it makes you feel better to think otherwise don't let me stop you. as i said i couldn't care a less. you're still wrong. i'd give up now if i were you.

TINA1984

Emme wrote: »

Tina do you work for Iarnrod Eireann? If so could you please explain what the problem is.

Scraping away all the bloviating from you know who about how the Waterford line is a special case, can you accept the idea that the world over, people have to stand on commuter trains at rush hour for an often considerable length of time?

end of the road wrote: »

wrong, i know a hell of a lot more ...

Sure you do Walter Mitty, sure you do....

monument

Everybody needs to relax and read the charter before posting again.

Any more personal attacks and you'll get a ban for at least a day or two.

-- Moderator

s8080

Emme wrote: »

What have private bus companies got to do with it?

I understand Iarnrod Eireann do not have the money to increase services across the board but their policy seems to be to run one line into the ground (the Waterford line) by sporadically cutting 5 and 6 car trains to 3 and 4 cars. A typical example was last Thursday. If several groups book seats and carriages on a 5 or 6 car train and IE cut it to 4 cars there will be trouble. This happens more on the Waterford line than on other lines.

IE seem to WANT paying passengers on the Waterford line to defect to private buses so they will have an excuse to close the Waterford line altogether. This means stations from Athy to Waterford would be closed and jobs lost. Really progressive thinking :rolleyes:

replace IE with NTA/Government and you have hit the nail on the head

Who sets the fares?
Who sets the level of service?
Who benefits if the line is closed?

I think you all know the answers, you just don’t want to accept you are being played like a fiddle.

Emme

s8080 wrote: »

replace IE with NTA/Government and you have hit the nail on the head

Who sets the fares?
Who sets the level of service?
Who benefits if the line is closed?

I think you all know the answers, you just don’t want to accept you are being played like a fiddle.

Who sets the fares?
The government and Iarnrod Eireann

Who sets the level of service?
The funding received by Iarnrod Eireann from the government sets the overall level of service. Iarnrod Eireann allocates the funding and ultimately the service level. It appears that they are allocating more funding to some lines and decreasing funding to others.

Who benefits if the line is closed?
Hardly anybody except the owners of private bus companies. Closing the line might free up more money but the damage incurred will more than offset any gains. The government will lose even more support from people living near the defunct stations. Jobs will be lost and this will have a knock on effect on local economies. OAPs who depended on the train for a day out will be housebound.

All those affected would be sure to make their feelings known at election time.