RTE report: Bill makes purchasing sexual services an offence

nokia69 · 28-11-2014 05:56AM

gozunda wrote: »

Ah crap - not another the feminists are attacking the gates type diversion. :rolleyes: Every frackin issue in AH got to do with just about anything is being tagged as being caused by feminazis this weather.... It's getting very very repetitive at this stage tbh.

but feminists and nuns are behind this new law, a very strange combination

but both groups hate men so they love laws like this

gozunda · 28-11-2014 06:09AM

nokia69 wrote: »

but feminists and nuns are behind this new law, a very strange combination

but both groups hate men so they love laws like this

All feminists and nuns - seriously

One the nuns been nuns would probably not approve of prostitution one way or the other tbh and I while I'm not a fan of nuns per se - I don't think they are known as rabid men haters tbh.

As for de 'feminists' theory re global domination that has got continuously dragged out again and again in AH the last while it's a bit (yawn) boring at this stage. Last time I looked there were various different individuals (some deranged, others not so) who were variously advocating for a range of rights for women. Tbh I can see no evidence whatsoever if a global 'feminist' man hating movement which is bearing down on us with pitch forks as we speak :rolleyes:

nokia69 · 28-11-2014 06:16AM

gozunda wrote: »

All feminists and nuns - seriously

One the nuns been nuns would probably not approve of prostitution one way or the other tbh and I while I'm not a fan of nuns per se - I don't think they are known as rabid men haters tbh.

As for de 'feminists' theory re global domination that has got continuously dragged out again and again in AH the last while it's a bit (yawn) boring at this stage. Last time I looked there were various different individuals (some deranged, others not so) who were variously advocating for a range of rights for women. Tbh I can see no evidence whatsoever if a global 'feminist' man hating movement which is bearing down on us with pitch forks as we speak :rolleyes:

you can believe what you want, modern feminists hate men, and this law is proof of the fact

gozunda · 28-11-2014 06:20AM

nokia69 wrote: »

you can believe what you want, modern feminists hate men, and this law is proof of the fact

What Law are you talking about exactly. The missus would provably describe herself as being pro woman's rights (ie by definition a 'feminist') but guess what she don't hate men at all. Quite amazing in fact she seems to very fond of them ....

Did you see this post recently?

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057323850/1/#post92974011

Bipolar Joe · 28-11-2014 06:41AM

Dude you didn't give me time to guess.

Johngoose · 28-11-2014 07:12AM

An awful lot of legislation being rushed through all of a sudden.Think of the latest legislation regarding drink drivers/drugged up drivers.What are Fine Gael up to?Is it electioneering/ creating smoke screens so that nobody will talk about Irish Water?Are they giving the media a few sensational headlines to keep their party out of the papers?I say this as somebody who is tired of political parties as a whole in Ireland.

Grayson · 28-11-2014 08:21AM

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Why would someone want to pay for sexual services anyway? Pure daft thing to be doing now..

I remember during the first divorce referendum people voting against it because "Why would I want a divorce?"

Johngoose · 28-11-2014 08:25AM

When Nidge killed that innocent brothel manager he opened the floodgates.

whupdedo · 28-11-2014 08:27AM

Grayson wrote: »

I remember during the first divorce referendum people voting against it because "Why would I want a divorce?"

Right , and what has that got to do with the subject in hand ?

jamesbere · 28-11-2014 08:28AM

Johngoose wrote: »

An awful lot of legislation being rushed through all of a sudden.Think of the latest legislation regarding drink drivers/drugged up drivers.What are Fine Gael up to?Is it electioneering/ creating smoke screens so that nobody will talk about Irish Water?Are they giving the media a few sensational headlines to keep their party out of the papers?I say this as somebody who is tired of political parties as a whole in Ireland.

They're other things going on in the government other then Irish Water. I doubt people are suddenly going to forget about the whole issue because it hasn't been mentioned for a couple of days

Grayson · 28-11-2014 08:35AM

whupdedo wrote: »

Because women's rights groups and religious nuts believe it is in everybody's best interests, in the main belief that men are basically animals who shouldn' be allowed visit an women who willingly do what she wants to do

It would of course be much more practical to regulate and tax the industry but instesd will give in to the likes of ruhama and any other groups who shout loudest

Its easy to outlaw a voiceless industry because any one voicing support for it will be castigated as being perverted or totally immoral

Actually feminist groups are generally split in this (same with porn). many believe that it's a womans body and a womans choice. there's the other group who believe that it objectifies women or that it's just dirty (that'd be the religious groups)

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I think the idea is that by criminalising the women, you are making a criminal out of a victim. This is based on human trafficking.

There is always going to be issues where statistics ate skewed for these organisations as victims of trafficking will be more likely to avail of their services compared to someone who is independent.

Actually I've never seen a study which showed that women were unwillingly trafficked in any serious amount in Ireland or any western european country.

Grayson · 28-11-2014 08:37AM

whupdedo wrote: »

Right , and what has that got to do with the subject in hand ?

The post i was replying to said "why would anyone want to pay for sex".
just because that poster didn't doesn't mean that others won't.

It's a standard answer in this country. Why be for a particular civil liberty unless it benefits yourself?

Grayson · 28-11-2014 08:38AM

eviltwin wrote: »

Is it just kerb crawling that is illegal now? What is the law in relation to hiring an escort online?

Someone posted a link up a few pages back. i scanned it and found the relevant section.

“Offence of purchasing sexual services
5A(1) For the purposes of this head, the term “sexual service” shall have the same
meaning as the term “sexual activity.”
(2) Where, in the context of prostitution, any person who purchases a sexual service
from another person, in any place, he or she shall be guilty of an offence.
(3) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary
conviction to:
(a) a class E fine, in the case of a first conviction, or
(b) a class D fine, in the case of a second or subsequent conviction.
(4) Any person who attempts to purchase a sexual service from another person, in
any place, he or she shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary
conviction to a class E fine.

Day Lewin · 28-11-2014 08:50AM

@Gozunda

one of the the principal problem with prostitution both male and female is that it is frequently part of deeply unpleasant criminal activity which may include child exploitation and at times involving other practitioners (for a better word) who may be coerced into prostitution / controlled by a John or trafficked. Drug dealing and other criminal activity frequently goes with the territory.

All of these vague claims would be less "frequent" if the industry that they are on the fringes of, WERE legal.

For then, the adult, freely-choosing workers in the ancient and perennial sex industry could claim legal protection, need not be afraid to report ill-treatment to the police, and could themselves choose the circumstances in which they work.

Making them illegal drives them and their whole traditional trade even further into the murky twilight of the forbidden, the furtive, the secretive and criminal, and thus even more exploitable.

gozunda · 28-11-2014 08:53AM

Grayson wrote: »

Actually feminist groups are generally split in this (same with porn). many believe that it's a womans body and a womans choice. there's the other group who believe that it objectifies women or that it's just dirty (that'd be the religious groups)

Actually I've never seen a study which showed that women were unwillingly trafficked in any serious amount in Ireland or any western european country.

I believe it remains a significant problem

Two Interesting articles here

http://www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEnvironment/whosWho/profiles/neumayer/pdf/Article-for-World-Development-_prostitution_-anonymous-REVISED.pdf#page=75

http://www.unric.org/en/human-trafficking/27448-how-serious-is-the-problem

Amirani · 28-11-2014 08:56AM

Strazdas wrote: »

The criminalisation of prostitution is actually very controversial. I believe Sweden and Iceland are the only two other countries in Europe to have similar legislation to what is proposed, and the question should be asked why Ireland is going down this route.

Indeed. Worth noting too that Sweden has the highest rates of reported rapes in Europe, over 60 per 100k. Some of this may be that the system makes it easier to come forward or the legal definition is slightly different. Still, It's not exactly encouraging that the model here is consistently touted as best practice without addressing the above.

newport2 · 28-11-2014 09:02AM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I'm confused....

Many of the pro choice people (Ivana Bacik) are backing legistation for this????

What happened to woman's body, woman's choice?

The other stuff for protecting kids is spot on.

Only a woman's choice if the likes of Ivana Bacik approves of the woman's choice

gozunda · 28-11-2014 09:02AM

katemarch wrote: »

@Gozunda
All of these vague claims would be less "frequent" if the industry that they are on the fringes of, WERE legal.

For then, the adult, freely-choosing workers in the ancient and perennial sex industry could claim legal protection, need not be afraid to report ill-treatment to the police, and could themselves choose the circumstances in which they work.

Making them illegal drives them and their whole traditional trade even further into the murky twilight of the forbidden, the furtive, the secretive and criminal, and thus even more exploitable.

katemarch wrote: »

the adult, freely-choosing workers in the ancient and perennial sex industry

I note you are relying on the antiquity of the sex industry to give it legitimacy!
You must be joking surely. Woman (and men) who ended up on the sex industry often had little or any choice in the matter. As for 'adult freely choosing' workers - what person engaging such services knows if a sex worker has or has not been trafficked or coerced into prostitution. Legalisation of prostitution can only set standards - it cannot create a perfect state where people are free from such exploitation.

Vague claims? And not mine btw. I would recommend you do some reading on the subject. I have posted the link to this article previously but it discusses many of the issues I highlighted.

http://www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEnvironment/whosWho/profiles/neumayer/pdf/Article-for-World-Development-_prostitution_-anonymous-REVISED.pdf#page=75

As for your "claim" that

katemarch wrote: »

All of these vague claims would be less "frequent" if the industry that they are on the fringes of, WERE legal

Perhaps you should back up such generalised statements with some evidence.

newport2 · 28-11-2014 09:10AM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Indeed. Worth noting too that Sweden has the highest rates of reported rapes in Europe, over 60 per 100k. Some of this may be that the system makes it easier to come forward or the legal definition is slightly different. Still, It's not exactly encouraging that the model here is consistently touted as best practice without addressing the above.

Also, if the figures on prostitution from Sweden are promising after this was implemented, how do they know that this reduction isn't purely down to the industry being pushed further underground?

TBH, what annoys me most about this law is the fact that the only people not listened to were the sex workers themselves. Lots of articles from them over the last couple of years saying this law would make things more dangerous for them. The only ones that Ruhama and TORL campaign paid any attention to were reformed sex workers who regretted their past.

Annasopra · 28-11-2014 09:20AM

eviltwin wrote: »

Is it just kerb crawling that is illegal now? What is the law in relation to hiring an escort online?

This isnt law yet. It still needs to be debated by the Dail and Seanad.

A Bill is a draft law
An Act is a law

Annasopra · 28-11-2014 09:21AM

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

The full act is available here.

It's surprisingly detailed in what is and isn't allowed.

For example, there's one section devoted to "Removal of wigs and gowns".

It's a Bill not an Act.

Dravokivich · 28-11-2014 09:22AM

If trafficking is such a problem, deal with trafficking. Which to be honest, is a problem greater than prostitution here. There was quite a bit of it in construction years ago, particularly with the site of immigrant workers who were forced to stay onsite, work all hours and were getting severely under paid.

Should the purchase of services from the construction industry also be made illegal, because of this occurring in some instances?

People who are enslaved as a result of trafficking or by other means need the re-assurance of the support available by society. As well as some means or measures to put in place in aid to prevent, or action against trafficking rapidly.

This does nothing to achieve that.

Annasopra · 28-11-2014 09:23AM

YFlyer wrote: »

Is if true that a person with a mental disability is not allowed to have sex if not married?

Under current law peple with intellectual disabilities can't consent to sex unless married.

DeadHand · 28-11-2014 09:26AM

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Indeed. Worth noting too that Sweden has the highest rates of reported rapes in Europe, over 60 per 100k. Some of this may be that the system makes it easier to come forward or the legal definition is slightly different. Still, It's not exactly encouraging that the model here is consistently touted as best practice without addressing the above.

Also worth noting that, in Sweden, 1st and 2nd generation immigrants, especially those originating in North Africa and West Asia, were found to be significantly over represented among those rape allegations were made against.

So, Sweden's high rate of reported rape could equally be attributed to the volume and character of it's immigration as it could to it's prostitution laws and relative ease of reporting.

They're likely all factors.

Just some factors are safer and easier to mention than others.

Grayson · 28-11-2014 09:27AM

gozunda wrote: »

I believe it remains a significant problem

Two Interesting articles here

http://www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEnvironment/whosWho/profiles/neumayer/pdf/Article-for-World-Development-_prostitution_-anonymous-REVISED.pdf#page=75

http://www.unric.org/en/human-trafficking/27448-how-serious-is-the-problem

the second one talks about trafficking in general and focusses more in the third world. Trafficking in countries like that is a problem but it's more for slave labour than sexual exploitation.

The first one studies whether legalising prostitution increases or decreased trafficking. It has an interesting premise. They take studies from around the world and combine them to get an overall picture. There's three problems. each study was performed by different people and would have used different methods for estimating trafficking (and even if that trafficking is sexual). It's also going to be a global view rather than a look as western Europe. Finally it's comparing a country like Thailand with a country like Holland. It does however draw some conclusions for some western countries but they state that they may be wrong and even if they're right they still aren't assessing the positive benefits of legalising prostitution. It may be that even if there is an increase in trafficking due to legalised prostitution, the benefits of legalising may be far better than the benefits of criminalising.

Grayson · 28-11-2014 09:38AM

gozunda wrote: »

I note you are relying on the antiquity of the sex industry to give it legitimacy!
You must be joking surely. Woman (and men) who ended up on the sex industry often had little or any choice in the matter. As for 'adult freely choosing' workers - what person engaging such services knows if a sex worker has or has not been trafficked or coerced into prostitution. Legalisation of prostitution can only set standards - it cannot create a perfect state where people are free from such exploitation.

Perhaps you should back up such generalised statements with some evidence.

You're making a generalised claim. It's even covered in the article you posted there. The concept that prostitution is forced/coerced and that no-one would want to participate in the industry.

The vast majority of trafficking worldwide is not sexual. It's slave labour (mentioned in another article you shared).

And yes, legislation isn't perfect. We outlaw murder but people still kill. However creating a framework where prostitution is legal and sex workers have rights does limit the harm.

The studies you listed only looked at whether there is a link between legalised prostitution and trafficking. It didn't examine anything that occurs within the framework of legalised prostitution. they also compared countries like Thailand and Germany/Holland. That's misleading because although it gives a general global view, it's misleading when it comes to Germany/Holland. There's a huge difference between the legal framework and the protections offered to sex workers in Amsterdam as opposed to Thailand.

Grayson · 28-11-2014 09:39AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Under current law peple with intellectual disabilities can't consent to sex unless married.

That's weird. So they can't consent to have sex, but they can consent to marriage.

Grayson · 28-11-2014 09:51AM

btw, just in case my view isn't clear. I don't think criminalising it helps. I think that if it's legal, and is very much regulated, then most of the negatives can be removed.

circadian · 28-11-2014 10:04AM

Son0vagun wrote: »

Bill O'Herlihy?

He's had his fun and has decided you ain't gettin none.

28-11-2014 10:10AM

SeanW wrote: »

People who have disabilities for one thing.

very well said mate, there a people who are depressed, not great looking, handicapped, disfigured, socially awkward etc etc.
listen, it doesn't matter what, if a person is ok with accepting money for sex, then I think that's their business and it should be left alone.

there are basic human needs, heat, food, water, love and sex!! apparently without them, people can die or without the latter two, lead a very sad and lonely existence!! I'm all for bludgeoning human traffickers but realy, clamping down on prostitution is not the way. I'm sure countries where it's decriminalised would serve to show this.... poor catholic Ireland.. the Vatican is full of hookers and rent boys and we still suffer the guilt and dogma.

RTE report: Bill makes purchasing sexual services an offence

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