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**ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED** Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP
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I do not want to pay for water in any waytwowheelsgood wrote: »All right I’ll bite.
Short answer is that the reasons you cite are NOT the reasons so many people are protesting. That can be plainly demonstrated by the fact that every single sin you cite has happened before and people didn’t care, or at least not enough to protest in large numbers. And they didn’t because times were good for them. That short sightedness in our collective make up may be a flaw, a fatal one at that, but that is how it is.
(Granted, yours is a commonly made error. Most laughably with the many people who think that FF were hammered at the last GE because the people suddenly acquired a distaste for low standards in high office. Utterly preposterous of course – the economy tanked – FF got a pasting, simple as that.)
Times are not good for many people now, very bad for many in fact, and that is why they are unhappy and protesting. All of the things you cite may fuel their anger but it is not the root cause.
If the protests against metered water were a runaway success (IW disbanded, all the waste somehow undone, all of the big shots from Enda down out on their ear) you would still have to address the root cause.
And the root cause it that we encountered a 20 billion deficit in our budget a few years back and there was simply no way to deal with that that was not going to place an enormous burden on the majority of people. And metered water, whilst a good idea, is a consequence of and is only now being considered because of the crash.
So I’ll ask you again. What route would you have taken 5 years ago that would not have lead to substantially as much hardship for people as we currently have?
And if the protest against metered water is as successful as you could hope for, what would you propose we do next, that would not impose the same collective total of hardship on the people?
And moral victory type solutions that start with “At least the people …” won’t cut it. Do / did you have a better way? One where people would have suffered less?
That’s a rhetorical question. You don’t. Every time that question is put it goes unanswered. What we will get is childish calls of shill and pretence that various unsavoury issues surrounding the setup and operation of IW are the problem rather than a mere propellant that fuels the anger.
I am very glad you 'bit' as you put it. Because it gives my the impetus to detract from the statements you made.
Firstly you're rhetorical question, I would urge you to look up the term rhetorical as it would involve the respondent not having a different answer. I do so now that is out of the way.
So where to start, the reasons people are out protesting. cronyism , nepotism , back handers , behind the scenes tendors, debt wipeouts etc etc may have happened before. But you were dealing with a less educated, less media savvy and ultimately media spun voter. Social media has allowed discussion to open up and facts to come to the fore. Which is why we are here i suppose.
All the reason i cite are exactly the reasons those that are out, do so in protest. Have you read the polls ? Have you spoken to anyone that is protesting ? Have you actually been to a protest to gather information (even if you do not agree with the concept or content ) ?
Based on the response you have given above i would err on the side of 'no' to each question above.
People are out protesting not because we have witnessed the worst recession in decades possibly all time within this country, but because they have shouldered too much of the burden. There was no real protest before now because while most people grumbled and mumbled, they got on with it. People realised and in many cases swallowed the line that we had to do our part and take much of this on the chin. That has come about in reality via job losses, Pay freezes, USC introductions, cuts to to grants, drop in services, closures of garda stations, freezes in health staff, lets not forget the LPT.
On to the LPT this we were told was for the same local services inc water that we were to pay for this was what we were told. (no nationwide protests there) sure we have to take it on the chin, everyone to the wheel so to speak.
And on we went, but slowly after time it was quite vividly seen by all, including yourself that FG and Labour equally were rushing from one scandal to the next. I don't think a month went by in the last 18 months were we did not have a new and worse story than the month before, directly to do with current government decisions / appointments and attitudes.
More of the same you say ? Its happened before you say ?
This time people were reading the blogs, reading forums, fed by twitter facebook and forums such as this. Online media outlets allowed people to share the discussion and get different view points.
Well what do we come out with , an educated workforce who have seen the light. We were and are being conned. More of the same is not good enough. We pay huge amounts tax both directly and indirectly and it is being actively squandered. The government have been brazen. Directed or not the response from the top has been terrible. You have the second in command of the country talking about people smartphone choices on live tv ? when she is at one side trying to put her hand back into their pocket. 'all hands to the pump' 'but your not allowed to buy your own gloves for protection'
Do these guys not get it. You cant have more of the same, their actions have been more than visible. They are more accountable now than ever and quite rightly so.
Again people have paid with their jobs, many paid with their lives during the last 6 years. And you can sit there and type to me that this is about money? this is about an extra tax!
Tell me this then, I have voted FF FG and Labour in the past. I am degree educated i am paying the top rate of tax and have always been in employment. I have travelled the globe and enjoyed myself doing it. How and why would i be against IW if it was just about a new tax ? How and why would my immediate circle of friends and my family all of whom are in full employment be against IW if it was just about tax.
Facts are clear, If i got a job as a government advisor i would have advised them all to shut their mouths from day 1.
You think people who are anti IW are void of ideas. You are highly mistaken.
Here is the run down of what should have happened in the run up to some form of water charges.
1) a highly publicised campaign on what goes into treating our water resource. contained within the same campaign clear and stark messages of how important water is a 'security resource' and the dangers of taking advantage of it. a full an exhaustive explanation of what is planned in terms of upgrades and repairs coupled with a job friendly promotion on creation of jobs for said repairs and upgrades. Finally some direction on the funding
Underlining this Water is OURS. OURS the people.
2) take the portion of the NPRF that was used to setup this sham organisation and pay dubious contract companies and purchase vast amounts of not fit for purpose meters and plough it into the initial upgrades above. Demonstrate actual milestones publicly releasing the stats and the markers achieved with the NPRF into our security of OUR resource
3) Once demonstrable milestones were reached introduce a fair and explicit charge to all. This charge would be for the upkeep of the infrastructure and the treatment. Reduce the existing structures that had paid for the water previously to a fair degree to retain income yet demonstrate that we are not just taking the absolute piss (again) as was done historically.
Now don't get me wrong here. My response may not fit in with what you had been expecting for the agenda of which you presrcibe. I noticed you reused the term shill. I will again give an example of what shill means.
"Shill can also be used pejoratively to describe a critic who appears either all-too-eager to heap glowing praise upon mediocre offerings, or who acts as an apologist for glaring flaws."
So while some people may not like the term, it most definitely applies when people are happy to accept mediocrity when we are paying premium.
So let me ask you this. Have we not paid a lot in the last number of years. Do we the people not deserve better. Can we not expect truth ethics and transparency from our individual elected representatives.
We do not need to be where we are now, no offence to someone who managed to get elected. But you would have to be one big stupid edgit to have managed to get this whole thing so diametrically wrong. Politics isn't rocket science. Its marketing at its core and they couldn't even get the optics correct. We have some of the most disorganised, less media savvy and washed out of ideas politicians anyone could hope for. But if you are happy with that. The people on the street are not.
Therein is the crux of where we are at today.
You say Tax, I say Facts.
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Watched it.steamengine wrote: »TBH I think Russell Brand has a much deeper grasp of the matter for those who want to watch his video. For example, this present further loading of the Irish taxpayer with water charges and allowing scams like the double Irish to continue. Hard to take it seriously after he played the "paying twice" card. And the double Irish is not being allowed to continue.
I think you could say that already. 8 billion in interest payments this year alone! How many water charges is that? :eek:steamengine wrote: »Someday the politicians just might acknowledge that the size of our total national debt is just too large to carry and has reached a tipping point, just like the ordinary citizens.
The problem is what do you do? Making it even worse by not dealing with our deficit is hardly a good plan.0 -
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twowheelsgood wrote: »Watched it. Hard to take it seriously after he played the "paying twice" card. And the double Irish is not being allowed to continue.
I think you could say that already. 8 billion in interest payments this year alone! How many water charges is that? :eek:
The problem is what do you do? Making it even worse by not dealing with our deficit is hardly a good plan.
I suppose you don't take anyone who is in the anti water charges group seriously!!
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I do not want to pay for water in any wayCuttlefish wrote: »I suppose you don't take anyone who is in the anti water charges group seriously!!
Pro Water Tax lads aren't interested in any other views.
Cronyism, corruption and now coppers assaulting young women is all ok in their eyes.
It's hard to understand the twisted mentality behind that kind of thought process.0 -
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listermint wrote: »But you were dealing with a less educated, less media savvy and ultimately media spun voter. Social media has allowed discussion to open up and facts to come to the fore. Which is why we are here i suppose.
Well I can’t prove that you are wrong any more than you can prove me wrong but I have no doubt that you are. It may be a long time coming but we will see better times again and I am certain that the present (faux!) distain for low standards will ebb again. And if we are all still here I will come back and remind you?
Ethics my arse, it is the economy stupid. Always and ever will it be so.
As a simple test, can you explain why Michael Lowry still sits in the Dáil if a new age has dawned? Do you think it is entirely coincidental that this lust for high standards just happened to coincide with an economic crash? The rise of social media and an educated Irish work force didn’t come to be in 2011!
I fundamentally disagree. That is precisely why they are protesting. Precisely why people protested in Europe in recent years. Precisely why people, everywhere and at any time protest when their economic situation deteriorates.listermint wrote: »People are out protesting not because we have witnessed the worst recession in decades possibly all time within this country …
Or do you suppose that all of these protests happened to coincide with a new thirst for high standards. Greece? Italy? Spain? High standards? There’re worse than us!
No it doesn’t. Because you did not answer the question I put to you. I asked about an overall approach to the crisis in the last 5 years – not IW specifically. I think there are few, if any, who would argue that the setup of IW could not have been done better.listermint wrote: »My response may not fit in with what you had been expecting for the agenda of which you prescibe.0 -
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Cuttlefish wrote: »I suppose you don't take anyone who is in the anti water charges group seriously!!
That's not true!
There are two of them worth reading! :pac:0 -
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I agree with metered water chargestwowheelsgood wrote: »Watched it. Hard to take it seriously after he played the "paying twice" card. And the double Irish is not being allowed to continue.
I think you could say that already. 8 billion in interest payments this year alone! How many water charges is that? :eek:
The problem is what do you do? Making it even worse by not dealing with our deficit is hardly a good plan.
The double Irish is being phased out and had they not been brought to heel by Cameron etc., it would have continued on.
As an ordinary citizen I don't think solving the country's dire financial problems are my problem. I have heard of a couple of solutions though, including debt write down, which the government ignored. Perhaps this present citizen's revolt might sharpen their collective brains, assuming they have some.0 -
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I do not want to pay for water in any waytwowheelsgood wrote: »Well I can’t prove that you are wrong any more than you can prove me wrong but I have no doubt that you are. It may be a long time coming but we will see better times again and I am certain that the present (faux!) distain for low standards will ebb again. And if we are all still here I will come back and remind you?
Ethics my arse, it is the economy stupid. Always and ever will it be so.
As a simple test, can you explain why Michael Lowry still sits in the Dáil if a new age has dawned? Do you think it is entirely coincidental that this lust for high standards just happened to coincide with an economic crash? The rise of social media and an educated Irish work force didn’t come to be in 2011!
I fundamentally disagree. That is precisely why they are protesting. Precisely why people protested in Europe in recent years. Precisely why people, everywhere and at any time protest when their economic situation deteriorates.
Or do you suppose that all of these protests happened to coincide with a new thirst for high standards. Greece? Italy? Spain? High standards? There’re worse than us!
No it doesn’t. Because you did not answer the question I put to you. I asked about an overall approach to the crisis in the last 5 years – not IW specifically. I think there are few, if any, who would argue that the setup of IW could not have been done better.
What approach would you like, it feels like you are a FG promoter ? (question)
That being said, you realise they have done nothing of note in the last 4 years. Quite literally nothing, they did everything they were told to do. They kicked the can down the road, introduced new charges cut backs increased taxes. (all of which they were told to do) all of which we actually swallowed and went along with.
Is it a case that you are holding FG as some form of guardian to the country the last number of years ? Because the facts and their acts are polar opposite.
Again i say they did nothing that they were not told to do, or that FF had prescribed to before their exit. The did however abandon all their mandate. And the water charges we were told would be part of LPT (so don't use that shiney nugget)
Abandoning your mandate , yes the one they were elected on is good enough for you is it ?
I have given you facts about IW as this is the IW thread, feel free to open another thread on FG performance in government and we can knock one out there.0 -
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AboutaWeekAgo wrote: »I could drag up about 20 quotes from you posting degrading comments about protesters. Pot kettle and all that
The people I am talking about do not have the sort of qualities that I associate with humans. Joan Burton and co are decent people.0 -
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