ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP

In Lonesome Dove · 13-11-2014 09:17PM

twowheelsgood wrote: »

What odious debt? Most of what we owe is money we spent with no matching income to pay for it. Which is the actual reason the IMF came to see us.

And part of the reason we got in to that mess is because we had loopy tax collection arrangements - something metered water will go some way to fix.

'Part of the reason we got into that mess is because we had loopy tax collection arrangements'

This is wrong. We could have had all the taxes in the world but once the banking sector fell on it's arse, the economy contracts soaking up money and taking money away. This leads to unemployment due to a lack of lending and is then a circle with a dominio effect. This is how we came to have a deficit. We could have had a broadened tax base but we would still be where we are today when the banks fell. There will also be a deficit hole at a time of recession due to tax falling and increased government expenditure.

If we look to the uk, our nearest neighbour, it appears they have many ingredients for a healthy economy lower wages and lower unemployment assistance to help encourage employment. They have a broadened tax base too. But they are in the same boat as us with very similar problems.

Other countries in the EU - Spain has a property tax and water charges for some time. Their welfare is very poor. They have the broadened tax base and government expenditure limited. But they too have the same problems as us - banking problems, unemployment, deficit and debt.

Some other EU countries are in the same boat too. I'm going to stretch a bit further now to the US.

The people of the US have been taxed through their holes for years and their social welfare is next to nothing. But they too also have similiar problems as us.

The core of the problem is very deep.

gladrags · 13-11-2014 09:17PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Red Pepper wrote: »

Folks, is there anywhere that takes bet on when the next general election will take place?

The bar in the Dail,you can run up a tab.

_Kaiser_ · 13-11-2014 09:18PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

VinLieger wrote: »

Which any intelligent voter would have been aware of was going to happen, yes they promised a lot that they didn't come through on

EXCEPT.. the problem there is that their whole campaign was based on taking a new approach to the crisis and ending the stroke politics of the previous government.

It's not that they rowed back on a few impractical things (as you'd expect) - the ENTIRE manifesto was rolled back on

which when the next election comes around they and labour will likely be punished for

Yep, and then the real problem will raise it's head. Where do we go next? Back to FF?

but guess what the economy is on the way back up, unemployment is dropping

None of which is anything to do with FG/LAB policy or performance - they merely continued to tax the feck out of everyone and pushed the rest abroad if they could or into increasing poverty - aided by a slick spin campaign to suggest that "it's all the Welfare scrounger's fault" to keep the "peasants" fighting among themselves

and we had our first neutral budget in over 5 years, austerity is either over or very close to being and if you thought it would be a quick fix then your living in fantasy land

We're far from out of the woods yet. Our "upturn" has been fuelled by a general upswing in Europe and private enterprise, the former of which has petered out already. We're busy inflating another property bubble while rents and property prices in Dublin spiral out of control again, there's still a few hundred thousand unemployed or in slave labour schemes or "training" that massage the true extent of the problem, and their "neutral" budget will be rapidly eroded by IW charges, property taxes/rent hikes and increased costs of living.

FG/LAB have achieved something alright - they've managed to be even worse than their predecessors!

twowheelsgood · 13-11-2014 09:26PM

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

'Part of the reason we got into that mess is because we had loopy tax collection arrangements'

This is wrong. We could have had all the taxes in the world but once the banking sector fell on it's arse, the economy contracts soaking up money and taking money away.

This part of the problem was experienced by most countries, including ours. But in addition we had a property boom and we had an undue reliance on property related taxes (we did have all the taxes in the world

). When the property bubble crashed we suddenly found ourselves with 50 billion outgoings and only 30 billion coming in. And this was in addition to the banking problem.

Do you really think we would be no better off had we not been so fatally dependent on property taxes?

In Lonesome Dove · 13-11-2014 09:57PM

twowheelsgood wrote: »

This part of the problem was experienced by most countries, including ours. But in addition we had a property boom and we had an undue reliance on property related taxes (we did have all the taxes in the world ). When the property bubble crashed we suddenly found ourselves with 50 billion outgoings and only 30 billion coming in. And this was in addition to the banking problem.

Do you really think we would be no better off had we not been so fatally dependent on property taxes?

Yes, we had a property boom and the construction sector suffered with the banking crisis. With the banking collapse, not only did it effect the construction sector, it also effected small to medium sized businesses and companies who relied on credit to do business.

We weren't the only country who had a boom. Other countries also experienced a boom - the UK and Spain did. As did the US. Australia is also going through a boom but coming to a slowdown now.

Stargate · 13-11-2014 10:27PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Red Pepper wrote: »

Folks, is there anywhere that takes bet on when the next general election will take place?

gladrags wrote: »

The bar in the Dail,you can run up a tab.

You could ask here Red Pepper

Bring your phone Ha .

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10628403_1001065303253310_4323801777685386956_n.jpg?oh=41c7e2eb5358cb2cc117f337b7cf7379&oe=54D96CAC&__gda__=1424148678_313225d6108b32283b8aa89a375e1d37

Going Forward · 13-11-2014 10:28PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

twowheelsgood wrote: »

This part of the problem was experienced by most countries, including ours. But in addition we had a property boom and we had an undue reliance on property related taxes (we did have all the taxes in the world ). When the property bubble crashed we suddenly found ourselves with 50 billion outgoings and only 30 billion coming in. And this was in addition to the banking problem.

Do you really think we would be no better off had we not been so fatally dependent on property taxes?

And the relatively tiny sum which charging for water will bring in would not and will not prevent any such future crash. Its generally accepted that it's now not about conservation either (few swallowed that anyway), so what is it all for?

Why, on supposedly leaving austerity behind us and waving the troika off is this government intent on pushing the knife in again for one last twist?

The amazing thing about this country is that even as FF signed the MOU we had heads of state who were amongst the best paid in the world, and their pensions, maintained one of the most generous welfare systems in Europe and we were permitted/encouraged to continue to borrow 600m yearly for foreign aid.

Did I trip myself up by saying a tiny sum in relation to water charges? No, and here's why.

There's no real shortage of money coming into the Exchequer, but the public now has belatedly realised that so much of it is mismanaged.

They are insulted by the gold plated quango and by a government who cannot justify it's creation and the stark realisation that for all the spin, sorry, lies being repeated non stop, Irish Water has no better plans either for fixing leaks or investment than the previous local authorities were providing. A similar amount is to be spent on running the system and infrastructure developments in the next couple of years as the last couple.

There's no new investment bar some tinkering at the edges, and the investment plan they're touting as theirs contains mostly work that was begun or being planned by LAs.

To top it all off Irish Water claim that together we can help combat climate change.

Ireland contributes an estimated figure of 0.13 per cent of global carbon emissions.

Perhaps by conserving water we can all make a big push to get this down to 0.03 per cent, whilst safeguarding the national economy from future worldwide collapses.

Fairy tales.

oceanman · 13-11-2014 10:46PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Going Forward wrote: »

And the relatively tiny sum which charging for water will bring in would not and will not prevent any such future crash. Its generally accepted that it's now not about conservation either (few swallowed that anyway), so what is it all for?

Why, on supposedly leaving austerity behind us and waving the troika off is this government intent on pushing the knife in again for one last twist?

The amazing thing about this country is that even as FF signed the MOU we had heads of state who were amongst the best paid in the world, and their pensions, maintained one of the most generous welfare systems in Europe and we were permitted/encouraged to continue to borrow 600m yearly for foreign aid.

Did I trip myself up by saying a tiny sum in relation to water charges? No, and here's why.

There's no real shortage of money coming into the Exchequer, but the public now has belatedly realised that so much of it is mismanaged.

They are insulted by the gold plated quango and by a government who cannot justify it's creation and the stark realisation that for all the spin, sorry, lies being repeated non stop, Irish Water has no better plans either for fixing leaks or investment than the previous local authorities were providing. A similar amount is to be spent on running the system and infrastructure developments in the next couple of years as the last couple.

There's no new investment bar some tinkering at the edges, and the investment plan they're touting as theirs contains mostly work that was begun or being planned by LAs.

To top it all off Irish Water claim that together we can help combat climate change.

Ireland contributes an estimated figure of 0.13 per cent of global carbon emissions.

Perhaps by conserving water we can all make a big push to get this down to 0.03 per cent, whilst safeguarding the national economy from future worldwide collapses.

Fairy tales.

great post...

Dickie10 · 13-11-2014 10:55PM

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

so are people still confident of keeping out the water meters/charges in any shape or form, or have we succummed like property tax and all the other little taxes? i actually had absolutly no faith in water meter protests from word go. i slive in a rural , commuter belt village and the meters went in without even a sideward glance. when all the coutry are not behind something it probarbly wont work to protest against it.
we dont have a sizeable urban population all singing from the one hymn sheet to ever really change things. the governmment can actually do pretty much whatever it wants when it has to

Highflyer13 · 13-11-2014 10:57PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

I think IW coming along could be a good thing for the country. It has awoken the people to the crap that goes on in political circles after years of looking the other way. If real reform is ever going to happen in Irish politics the time is now.

Just from looking at the poll above. I know sample size is small but a good few people would like to see IW restructured. Surely FG/Lab know that leaving toxic Tierney & Co in charge and IW in its current form will lose them some votes. I was shocked when he walked out of Leinster House smiling a few weeks back. Thought he was for the chop as would happen in most private conpanies.

renegademaster · 13-11-2014 11:17PM

Red Pepper wrote: »

Folks, is there anywhere that takes bet on when the next general election will take place?

i tried that last year and no bookies would take the bet

renegademaster · 13-11-2014 11:21PM

Ace2007 wrote: »

Just a quick question - based on your answer - if this was 2005/6/7 - and we were at the height of the good times with money to burn - would you be against the water tax?

yes because like to admit it or not it is all part of a plan to control the whole worlds resources and it would be dangerous to sit back and watch it all gettin tied up and we paying through the nose for everything imho

twowheelsgood · 13-11-2014 11:22PM

Going Forward wrote: »

And the relatively tiny sum which charging for water will bring in would not and will not prevent any such future crash.

Neither would any other single measure but with a ball park figure of 1 billion it will make a bigger contribution that most others.

Going Forward wrote: »

Why, on supposedly leaving austerity behind us and waving the troika off is this government intent on pushing the knife in again for one last twist?

We still have a way to go in reducing our deficit. And if it is not by the monies freed up if water is to be paid for directly, it will have to be something else. As taxes / charges go, metered water is a better idea than most of the alternatives.

Going Forward wrote: »

There's no real shortage of money coming into the Exchequer, but the public now has belatedly realised that so much of it is mismanaged.

There most certainly was a shortage of money coming in to the exchequer at the onset of the crisis – and I doubt if waste elimination would be enough to close the remaining 6 – 7 billion deficit. But if you can point to costings that suggest otherwise ….

And I don’t personally think there has been any great awakening by the people. Any austere measure that was sent our way was invariably countered by reference to waste and excessive pay for politicians. Nothing new on that front.

We will, some day, return to more prosperous times. And this concern with prudence with public money will return to its familiar place, towards the bottom of our priority list. If people really did care about this the protests would have naturally expanded to demand reform anywhere there is waste in the public sector.

The protests are fundamentally because people do not want to pay directly for water. The various going ons in IW give them plenty of additional ammunition in their fight but ultimately this is incidental. There was always going to be a major challenge is bringing in water charges in Ireland, just as there was in bringing in property tax, no matter how well they were done.

tayto lover · 13-11-2014 11:23PM

renegademaster wrote: »

yes because like to admit it or not it is all part of a plan to control the whole worlds resources and it would be dangerous to sit back and watch it all gettin tied up and we paying through the nose for everything imho

Those who control oil and water control the world.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/mar/30/fossilfuels.water

http://www.naturalnews.com/040026_nestle_water_supply_domination.html

Gringo180 · 13-11-2014 11:28PM

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

If all the people with delusions that they cannot pay their water bills stopped paying for their non-essential non-humanright broadband or mobile connections they could pay their water bills.
Which would leave only those who can afford to pay it and their internet fees posting.
So as long as there are people posting that they cant pay, the water charge is not excessive.

Your a ****ing idiot.

Going Forward · 13-11-2014 11:37PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Surely FG/Lab know that leaving toxic Tierney & Co in charge and IW in its current form will lose them some votes. I was shocked when he walked out of Leinster House smiling a few weeks back. Thought he was for the chop as would happen in most private conpanies.

The awkward truth is that he is being made something of a ready scapegoat by the government if one can leave aside his past achievements.

He is as far as I can see doing the job he was appointed to do by them, granted there is the matter of the Bord Gais submission completely over estimating their own qualities and the subsequent admittance that annual savings would be considerably reduced from what was envisaged, but at the end of the day he is not the one who created or pushed this very dubious scheme onto an awakening public, this is the governments baby.

The government also were aware of and signed off on all the costs, consultants included.

It's a bit like the public attitude to Phil Hogan, he did the job he was given, implemented the EU FG agenda, if he wasn't going to do it, some other suit would line up for the chance and a pat on the head from Enda , and look at the reward he got for his trouble.

listermint · 13-11-2014 11:41PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Going Forward wrote: »

The awkward truth is that he is being made something of a ready scapegoat by the government if one can leave aside his past achievements.

He is as far as I can see doing the job he was appointed to do by them, granted there is the matter of the Bord Gais submission completely over estimating their own qualities and the subsequent admittance that annual savings would be considerably reduced from what was envisaged, but at the end of the day he is not the one who created or pushed this very dubious scheme onto an awakening public, this is the governments baby.

The government also were aware of and signed off on all the costs, consultants included.

It's a bit like the public attitude to Phil Hogan, he did the job he was given, implemented the EU FG agenda, if he wasn't going to do it, some other suit would line up for the chance and a pat on the head from Enda , and look at the reward he got for his trouble.

I hate the term scape goat, its plain as day he is part of the problem. He was a terrible choice and continues to be. But as i said only part of the problem and not a scapegoat. So dont make him and phil hogan out to be some form of pariah's because that is quite literally hilarious.

Going Forward · 13-11-2014 11:44PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Neither would any other single measure but with a ball park figure of 1 billion it will make a bigger contribution that most others.

I presume that figure is a genuine error on your part and not part of the lies that I mentioned earlier.

Perhaps you'd correct it.

Going Forward · 13-11-2014 11:49PM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

listermint wrote: »

I hate the term scape goat, its plain as day he is part of the problem. He was a terrible choice and continues to be. But as i said only part of the problem and not a scapegoat. So dont make him and phil hogan out to be some form of pariah's because that is quite literally hilarious.

Ok, I just feel the government like having an individual to blame, anyone as long as it's not themselves.

twowheelsgood · 13-11-2014 11:50PM

Going Forward wrote: »

I presume that figure is a genuine error on your part and not part of the lies that I mentioned earlier.

Perhaps you'd correct it.

Gringo180 · 13-11-2014 11:50PM

You know society is ****€d up when large corporations like Apple only pay 7.7 million in taxes on 17 billion profits in a 3 year period here in Ireland and on the other hand you have working class families been forced to pay for there water when they just cannot afford it. Disgusting world we live in.

tayto lover · 13-11-2014 11:52PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

You know society is ****€d up when large corporations like Apple only pay 7.7 million in taxes on a 17 billion profits and on the other hand you have working class families been forced to pay for there water when they just cannot afford it. Disgusting world we live in.

Rich tax evaders are heroes to the political classes.
Poor tax evaders are criminals to the same people.

Gringo180 · 13-11-2014 11:55PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Rich tax evaders are heroes to the political classes.
Poor tax evaders are criminals to the same people.

It sickens me to the pit of my stomach. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

teddy_303 · 14-11-2014 01:13AM

renegademaster wrote: »

yes because like to admit it or not it is all part of a plan to control the whole worlds resources and it would be dangerous to sit back and watch it all gettin tied up and we paying through the nose for everything imho

100% correct. if any level of charges are accepted, under any type of state / company ownership, it will only pave the way for evertual full privatisation, once this head of steam disappates.

then once that happens, we are devout slaves to whoever holds our water rights. can't drink water, can't cook, can't wash. commercial law permits the instant sacking of any CEO who does not act in accordence with drawing the maximum profit for the shareholders. which means in real terms, whoever ends up owning our water, has to potential of forcing the water CEO into unhumane acts or lose their job.

any level of acceptance is failure on the part of the public. just because you can afford it today, doesn't mean you can afford it in 5 - 10 years...

this must be defeated.... ask the 1500 ppl in detroit who had their water cut off in the last few weeks? The UN aren't interested in their basic UN human rights. false scarcity means false cut offs, to stimulate the market and the non consenting....

mbur · 14-11-2014 02:05AM

Tipping my hat to Mary Lou for stalling these monsters. Emergency Legislation yeah right.

teddy_303 · 14-11-2014 03:03AM

mbur wrote: »

Tipping my hat to Mary Lou for stalling these monsters. Emergency Legislation yeah right.

exactly. private company debt > illegal promassery note > lies the the dail > illegally converted prom note > soverign debt > odious debt illegally foisted onto the backs of the people of Ireland for the next 100 years > we give away €2.8 trillion of natural assets to cover €200 billion national debt > stupid!

14-11-2014 09:44AM

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Red Pepper wrote: »

Folks, is there anywhere that takes bet on when the next general election will take place?

There doesn't seem to be betting on when the GE takes place, but the betting on the possible next Taoiseach is interesting!
http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/irish-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=591648

Enda Kenny 8/11
Micheal Martin 11/4
Mary Lou McDonald 14/1
Richard Bruton 25/1
Mairead McGuinness 66/1
Dara Calleary 33/1
Lucinda Creighton 100/1
Michael McGrath 33/1
Brian Hayes 100/1
Gerry Adams 16/1
Pearse Doherty 40/1
James Reilly 100/1
Leo Varadkar 16/1
Joan Burton 40/1
Aine Collins 100/1
Simon Coveney 22/1
Eamon Gilmore 50/1
Eamon Ryan 200/1
Frances Fitzgerald 25/1
Averil Power 50/1
Helen McEntee 200/1
Michael Noonan 25/1

Tinder Surprise · 14-11-2014 11:44AM

is there any truth that the Government are moving to make the water charge collectable via the Revenue Dept/Taxes?
Just like the property tax?

If so, I would love someone to do a website listing all TD's that voted 'for' & 'against'.

Just a little something for the 2016 General election

Valetta · 14-11-2014 11:49AM

Gringo180 wrote: »

You know society is ****€d up when large corporations like Apple only pay 7.7 million in taxes on 17 billion profits in a 3 year period here in Ireland and on the other hand you have working class families been forced to pay for there water when they just cannot afford it. Disgusting world we live in.

Where exactly did Apple make all these profits?

smash · 14-11-2014 11:51AM

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Tinder Surprise wrote: »

is there any truth that the Government are moving to make the water charge collectable via the Revenue Dept/Taxes?
Just like the property tax?

They can't. the same way the ESB can't.

**ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED** Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP

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ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP