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Dr Lydia Foy new case.

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    #422
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    Ah yeah but if you're a straight guy and your woman suddenly reveals she used to be a man, it's going to be kind of hard to get it out of your mind that she used to be a man.

    Meh.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #423
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why post the link when it completely went against what you said? It's almost like you're being contrary or condescending for the sake of it rather than actually wanting to address any questions people may have. Almost.

    I have no idea of the point you are trying to make.


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    #424
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    Why is is not likely to happen?

    So bleedin what if it happens.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #425
    Earl Turner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭Earl Turner


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Meh.

    Great response.


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    #426
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    Why is is not likely to happen?

    Because people who fall in love tend to be honest with each other.


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    #427
    Earl Turner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭Earl Turner


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    So bleedin what if it happens.

    Yeah tell that to the average straight guy that he's been shagging a bloke all this time!


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    #428
    Earl Turner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭Earl Turner


    MadsL wrote: »
    Because people who fall in love tend to be honest with each other.

    How are things in fantasy land?


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    #429
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MadsL wrote: »
    I have no idea of the point you are trying to make.
    Anyone who has any questions about this that in any way pick at your view is by your definition a bigot/uneducated/whatever. When someone asks a straightforward question involving precise language rather than address it you either try to ignore it or ignore the follow-ups, as you're doing now, because you're so much better than everyone else.
    Don't worry though, happens all the time in these threads, some people get to inflate their egos without any question from the "enlightened" few and no-one is allowed to question it.

    Or maybe I just meant your usual Ireland bashing, who knows?


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    #430
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MadsL wrote: »
    Because people who fall in love tend to be honest with each other.

    Do people only have sex when they're in love now?


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    #431
    Chunners
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭Chunners


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    Ah yeah but if you're a straight guy and your woman suddenly reveals she used to be a man, it's going to be kind of hard to get it out of your mind that she used to be a man.

    So far I've kept out of all this legal document/born male crap because..well because it's cliched but honest to god what has that got to do with it? I mean do you normally ask women for a look at their birthcerts before you sleep with them and now this law will destroy that filter process for you? Transsexuals don't generally go around deceiving people they are considering getting into relationships with because it would serve us no purpose, best case scenario we'd probably lose a person we cared about and worst case scenario we'd probably get the crap kicked out of us. Hard as it is to believe most of us are honest and up front from the start because it is easier to take if a person rejects you then rather than a year into the relationship.


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    #432
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    Yeah tell that to the average straight guy that he's been shagging a bloke all this time!

    Oh the horror! What if he catches the ghey?

    What do you suggest, a special cloth star to worn by trans people?


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    #433
    Chunners
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭Chunners


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Anyone who has any questions about this that in any way pick at your view is by your definition a bigot/uneducated/whatever. When someone asks a straightforward question involving precise language rather than address it you either try to ignore it or ignore the follow-ups, as you're doing now, because you're so much better than everyone else.
    Don't worry though, happens all the time in these threads, some people get to inflate their egos without any question from the "enlightened" few and no-one is allowed to question it.

    Or maybe I just meant your usual Ireland bashing, who knows?

    I'll answer any questions you have and I promise I won't get offended and will treat your questions with respect as long as you promise to ask them in a respectful manner, hows that?


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    #434
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Chunners wrote: »
    I'll answer any questions you have and I promise I won't get offended and will treat your questions with respect as long as you promise to ask them in a respectful manner, hows that?

    Cool. Simplest one first, though you probably have a different view than MadsL has and will have some actual logical underpinning behind it, if sex is based on physiology then how does gender reassignment surgery affect sex? Specifically in the case of document of record such as a birth certificate.


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    #435
    Earl Turner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭Earl Turner


    MadsL wrote: »
    Oh the horror! What if he catches the ghey?

    What do you suggest, a special cloth star to worn by trans people?

    Lol relax no one is going to put you in a concentration camp for being a transsexual. I have been thinking recently about the scenario I've described and like I say a straight man is unlikely to accept transsexual man as a woman.


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    #436
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Do you mean in terms of pronouns he or she?


    OK you see I would tend to read Male/Female as biologically determined.

    Also I can logically separate the idea of manhood etc as being a cultural referenced so man to me would be a gender, not sex referencing term

    Like I think I can correctly say that Dr.Foy was born a Girl and Male. Or that as a young woman Dr.Foy was a healthy young male?

    Whereas for the pronouns he and she, your coming across something that to me would reference both physical attributes but also the cultural aspect of gender. Now I wouldn't deliberately use the "wrong" pronoun for a person that identified as a different gender to the sex they were born with.

    What I am trying to get at is the inflexibility of our language in dealing with this sort of scenario and I am curious if my thinking on it is flawed.

    As someone with an interest in biology and anthropology I find it interesting from a theoretical perspective, however I understand that my theoretical interest is about something that is effecting people directly, so apologies for any unintended offense.


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    #437
    Fr_Dougal
    Registered Users Posts: 9,167 ✭✭✭Fr_Dougal


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    Lol relax no one is going to put you in a concentration camp for being a transsexual. I have been thinking recently about the scenario I've described and like I say a straight man is unlikely to accept transsexual man as a woman.

    Not all transsexuals are straight.


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    #438
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Anyone who has any questions about this that in any way pick at your view is by your definition a bigot/uneducated/whatever.

    Care to give an example where I have insulted anyone in this thread?
    When someone asks a straightforward question involving precise language rather than address it you either try to ignore it or ignore the follow-ups, as you're doing now, because you're so much better than everyone else.
    I didn't see your post, you pointed it out and I addressed it. I still have no clue as to your point. How that makes me " so much better than everyone else" I have no idea.
    Don't worry though, happens all the time in these threads, some people get to inflate their egos without any question from the "enlightened" few and no-one is allowed to question it.

    What does that have to do with me or the topic at hand?
    Or maybe I just meant your usual Ireland bashing, who knows?

    Now we get to the real chip on your shoulder, does it rankle that I point out the Irish State has taken 21 years to resolve this matter. I would be highly amused if you care to defend that timescale. Please, go ahead.


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    #439
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    Lol relax no one is going to put you in a concentration camp for being a transsexual. I have been thinking recently about the scenario I've described and like I say a straight man is unlikely to accept transsexual man as a woman.

    Why does an image of Alan Partridge pop into my head?

    I hear I'm a transexual now, Father.


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    #440
    Chunners
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭Chunners


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Cool. Simplest one first, though you probably have a different view than MadsL has and will have some actual logical underpinning behind it, if sex is based on physiology then how does gender reassignment surgery affect sex? Specifically in the case of document of record such as a birth certificate.

    It doesn't, reassignment or not I will still have been born a natal male so at the time the birth cert was filled out it was 100% correct. After reassignment it will still be a 100% correct document. But, as Joey was saying, the original document isn't altered in any way. It stays as it is with Male still on it and a copy of it is issues and it is only on the copy that male is changed to female. Like when you get a birth cert they don't give you the original, they give you a copy, well this law will allow us apply to have the copy altered to reflect our new gender.


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    #441
    Earl Turner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭Earl Turner


    MadsL wrote: »
    Why does an image of Alan Partridge pop into my head?

    I hear I'm a transexual now, Father.

    Lol at the stupid Fr Ted quote.

    Alan Partridge is good though.


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    #442
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MadsL wrote: »
    Care to give an example where I have insulted anyone in this thread?
    We both know you've been around long enough to not do it outright.

    I didn't see your post, you pointed it out and I addressed it. I still have no clue as to your point. How that makes me " so much better than everyone else" I have no idea.
    Your argument was a link which didn't back up what you were saying. It was lazy and dismissive.


    What does that have to do with me or the topic at hand?
    Just backing up the point I was trying to make.

    Now we get to the real chip on your shoulder, does it rankle that I point out the Irish State has taken 21 years to resolve this matter. I would be highly amused if you care to defend that timescale. Please, go ahead.
    130 posts in this thread over a couple of years, speaking of timescales. :P When there's a case brought against any government they're not too likely to change legislation or whatever until they have to. All the way back to your OP you mentioned the cost of fighting the case, likely works out cheaper than drafting and passing legislation.


  • Options
    #443
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    a straight man is unlikely to accept transsexual man as a woman.
    Many do. You cant generalise.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #444
    Earl Turner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭Earl Turner


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Many do. You cant generalise.

    You could be right. Maybe I'm just cynical.


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    #445
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Chunners wrote: »
    It doesn't, reassignment or not I will still have been born a natal male so at the time the birth cert was filled out it was 100% correct. After reassignment it will still be a 100% correct document. But, as Joey was saying, the original document isn't altered in any way. It stays as it is with Male still on it and a copy of it is issues and it is only on the copy that male is changed to female. Like when you get a birth cert they don't give you the original, they give you a copy, well this law will allow us apply to have the copy altered to reflect our new gender.
    So it's sex-reassignment rather than gender-reassignment?
    Should the birthcert copies be updateable for anything else in your opinion?
    Again, your final sentence just seems contradictory, if your gender has changed (or been confirmed or allowed to show itself or whatever) isn't that a separate thing from your sex changing?


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    #446
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    You could be right. Maybe I'm just cynical.

    Its like this. There are many Roy and Hayley Croppers out there.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #447
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Deleted User wrote: »
    We both know you've been around long enough to not do it outright.

    Do what? Insult people? I don't.
    Your argument was a link which didn't back up what you were saying. It was lazy and dismissive.
    That wasn't my argument. 130 posts will testify to that.

    Just backing up the point I was trying to make.
    I don't think you have made one yet.


    30 posts in this thread over a couple of years, speaking of timescales. :P When there's a case brought against any government they're not too likely to change legislation or whatever until they have to.

    Is that so...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism#mediaviewer/File:World_concerning_gender_identity-expression_laws.png
    All the way back to your OP you mentioned the cost of fighting the case, likely works out cheaper than drafting and passing legislation.

    I find that unlikely. Look, I'm trying to save the Irish taxpayer money, remind me again how that is "Ireland bashing"?


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    #448
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Its like this. There are many Roy and Hayley Croppers out there.

    there are a few of course, but most straight men would not like to date a transsexual

    and I would bet its the same for straight women


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    #449
    darced
    Registered Users Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


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    #450
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    nokia69 wrote: »
    there are a few of course, but most straight men would not like to date a transsexual

    and I would bet its the same for straight women

    Quick, something must be done! What do you propose???


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    #451
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    darced wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Oh Jesus...facepalm.


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