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Dr Lydia Foy new case.

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    #392
    Earl Turner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭Earl Turner


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Are you for real? Would you have sex reassignment surgery and a 20 year battle through the courts just for the money?

    Depends on the money.


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    #393
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Teyla Emmagan wrote: »
    It's not meaningless. The birth cert is a piece of paper, but an important one. The judgement however is a recognition by the state that this woman has been wronged for YEARS as she has been driven to fight this ridiculous battle to have her identity acknowledged. Now she can travel under a passport that states she is a woman. There's no way she did this for the money, why would she fight such an ugly and public battle for so long? She did it to be recognised, and I think she's hugely brave.

    I may be wrong about this, and I do know the state dragged its heals on this issue but wasn't the original delay caused by Dr. Foy's wife and kids legal cases.

    Also AFAIK she could already obtain a passport to the correct gender.

    edit: she could, why am I the person to notice this on this thread :confused:


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    #394
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    Depends on the money.

    Sorry but I am completely 1 million percent unconvinced ANYONE would put themselves through SRS and a 20 year legal battle just for the money. Why would anyone do that? Put themselves through psycological trauma, physical and painful surgery, complete lack of support, hostility from family.

    The "just doing it for money" is completely false, its bunkum and nonsense. Its absurd. Its drivel and Its ludicrous.

    And I absolutely refuse to take anyone who says they would go through that for money seriously. Or anyone who claims someone else would do it just for money.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #395
    Uncle Ruckus
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Uncle Ruckus


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    Depends on the money.

    That's comical. I'm probably going to be disinherited for being transsexual. It's not uncommon.


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    #396
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Its really rude and inappropriate to say he/she. She was assigned male at birth. Thats true.

    You mean he was born a male. What's with this assigned craic? Should we wait until the child makes up its own mind, later in life, whether it's a boy or girl until we fill out their birth cert or something?

    Assigned me flute.


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    #397
    Uncle Ruckus
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Uncle Ruckus


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    You mean he was born a male. What's with this assigned craic? Should we wait until the child makes up its own mind, later in life, whether it's a boy or girl until we fill out their birth cert or something?

    Assigned me flute.

    Did you read the articles provided by Links in an earlier post? If so can your honestly say you know better than professional neurologists?


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    #398
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Uncle Ruckus wrote: »
    Did you read the articles provided by Links in an earlier post? If so can your honestly say you know better than professional neurologists?

    A birth certificate records ones particulars at the time of birth. Parents names, date of birth, place of birth and sex. Foy was born a man. That's a historical fact. Altering the cert to say that Foy was born a female is patently untrue.


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    #399
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    Assigned me flute.

    Yeah, that's pretty much how it works.


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    #400
    Uncle Ruckus
    Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Uncle Ruckus


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    A birth certificate records ones particulars at the time of birth. Parents names, date of birth, place of birth and sex. Foy was born a man. That's a historical fact. Altering the cert to say that Foy was born a female is patently untrue.

    So you did'nt read the articles then. Grand.


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    #401
    westernfrenzy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭westernfrenzy


    How many times do people have to be told that someone's biological sex is not the same as someone's gender ffs


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    #402
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    westernfrenzy wrote: »
    How many times do people have to be told that someone's biological sex is not the same as someone's gender ffs

    I know. The simple thing to remember is sex is the one that remains unchanged.


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    #403
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Uncle Ruckus wrote: »
    So you did'nt read the articles then. Grand.

    birth certificate

    n

    1. an official form giving details of the time and place of a person's birth, and his or her name, sex,mother's name and (usually) father's name

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/birth+certificate


    What sex was Foy born?


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    #404
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    You mean he was born a male. What's with this assigned craic? Should we wait until the child makes up its own mind, later in life, whether it's a boy or girl until we fill out their birth cert or something?

    Assigned me flute.

    She was assigned the male sex at birth. Yes thats what I mean. And its really offensive to deliberately misgender a transgender male to female person by referring to the person as "it" and "he"

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #405
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    A birth certificate records ones particulars at the time of birth.

    As has been pointed out, a birth cert is much more than that, I already posted a video earlier about this, and the fact that the cert is used in official documentation. It creates problems for trans people who's other documentation are at odds with with the cert, discloses what for many is an extremely private matter and opens them up to the possibility of abuse and discrimination. We use a birth cert all the time in our lives, it's not merely a record at all, I believe the term living document was used.


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    #406
    PeteFalk78
    Closed Accounts Posts: 762 ✭✭✭PeteFalk78


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    And its really offensive to deliberately misgender a transgender male to female person by referring to the person as "it" and "he"

    In fairness, he was referring to the time when Foys birth certificate was issued.


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    #407
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    What sex was Foy born?

    What the devil does it have to do with you??

    If someone wants their BC changed to match their curresnt gender then who the hell are you to say they can't??


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    #408
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Actually whats the correct terminology in this sort of case, this isn't a trolling question!
    Like we don't have separate words for gender and sex as such.
    Like from my reading of it from an emotionally distant from this subjects standpoint is that saying Dr.Foy was born Male is correct (but rude depending on context), saying Dr.Foy was born as a Boy is incorrect as Boy is a gendered term, whereas Male is a biological term?


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    #409
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    A birth certificate records ones particulars at the time of birth. Parents names, date of birth, place of birth and sex. Foy was born a man. That's a historical fact. Altering the cert to say that Foy was born a female is patently untrue.

    The way it works in the UK is that the original cert is unaltered and will still exist. They do not alter the original documents. A person who has gone through all necessary legalities can request a new birth cert with their preferred gender marked. So the original document is not altered and will still oficially exist. I understand a similar system will apply here. So any concerns about altering documents are invalid.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #410
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    PeteFalk78 wrote: »
    In fairness, he was referring to the time when Foys birth certificate was issued.

    That doesnt matter. As I said deliberately misgendering someone by using the wrong pronouns is rude and offensive.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #411
    RobYourBuilder
    Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭RobYourBuilder


    Links234 wrote: »
    As has been pointed out, a birth cert is much more than that, I already posted a video earlier about this, and the fact that the cert is used in official documentation.

    I gave the dictionary definition of the term.
    birth certificate

    n

    1. an official form giving details of the time and place of a person's birth, and his or her name, sex,mother's name and (usually) father's name

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/birth+certificate

    It's a record of a persons particulars at the time of their birth.


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    #412
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    I gave the dictionary definition of the term.

    So? That doesn't negate anything I've stated.


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    #413
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Actually whats the correct terminology in this sort of case, this isn't a trolling question!

    Do you mean in terms of pronouns he or she?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #414
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MadsL wrote: »
    What the devil does it have to do with you??

    If someone wants their BC changed to match their curresnt gender then who the hell are you to say they can't??

    So that's 10 posts you've made since I pointed out that the link you posted didn't actually back up what you said. Care to try again or just keep on ignoring it?


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    #415
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Sorry missed your response.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    How so? It says right in your link that ""Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women." How is registering someone born with only male genitalia as male incorrect?

    I never said it was incorrect, what is incorrect is presuming that it is concrete and unchangeable in the course of time and human experience.


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    #416
    Chunners
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 424 ✭✭Chunners


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    The way it works in the UK is that the original cert is unaltered and will still exist. They do not alter the original documents. A person who has gone through all necessary legalities can request a new birth cert with their preferred gender marked. So the original document is not altered and will still oficially exist. I understand a similar system will apply here. So any concerns about altering documents are invalid.

    If thats the case then I honestly can't see any reason why (if we have changed our name legally by deed poll) we can't just change that too since it won't affect the original, actually I can't see any reason why they wouldn't let us change our names on the original document too anyway since technically our names aren't official until we are christened, or at least thats what I've always assumed was the purpose of that drowning ritual


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    #417
    Earl Turner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭Earl Turner


    MadsL wrote: »
    Sorry missed your response.



    I never said it was incorrect, what is incorrect is presuming that it is concrete and unchangeable in the course of time and human experience.

    Ah yeah but if you're a straight guy and your woman suddenly reveals she used to be a man, it's going to be kind of hard to get it out of your mind that she used to be a man.


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    #418
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MadsL wrote: »
    Sorry missed your response.



    I never said it was incorrect, what is incorrect is presuming that it is concrete and unchangeable in the course of time and human experience.
    Why post the link when it completely went against what you said? It's almost like you're being contrary or condescending for the sake of it rather than actually wanting to address any questions people may have. Almost.


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    #419
    westernfrenzy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭westernfrenzy


    RobYourBuilder wrote: »
    I gave the dictionary definition of the term.

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/birth+certificate

    It's a record of a persons particulars at the time of their birth.

    Oh no not the dictionary definition!

    Which still means nothing in this case, as it's a legal proof of identity for Dr. Foy


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    #420
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Earl Turner wrote: »
    Ah yeah but if you're a straight guy and your woman suddenly reveals she used to be a man, it's going to be kind of hard to get it out of your mind that she used to be a man.

    I bet that taps right into the auld "forced to be gay" nightmare you keep having. Realistically, how likely is this to happen?


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    #421
    Earl Turner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭Earl Turner


    MadsL wrote: »
    I bet that taps right into the auld "forced to be gay" nightmare you keep having. Realistically, how likely is this to happen?

    Why is is not likely to happen?


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